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Examples of U.S. Soverign Citizen (Freeman on the Land) Failures

We need a revolution....

Even if we hold the discussion purely to the American FOTL movement, the question still stands as to why these people aren't trying to change the system if it is so abhorrent to them.

Actually, did we ever determine if FOTL is supposed to be how the legal system works now, or if it's a hypothetical system that FOTLers want to see adopted?


FMOTL 'johnnies' are hostile to the political process as they believe it's designed to enslave them.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1059013423&postcount=147

there is hope though :D:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1059011128&postcount=135

They haven't put much thought into what a FMOTL society would be like (they're too busy working out ways to avoid paying bills & getting their paws on that birth bond payout)The only FMOTL 'theorist' (& I use that term in it's very broadest interpretation) to articulate a vision of the future is John Harris, leading light of TPUC.

http://www.tpuc.org/content/what-country-needs-benign-dictator-–-‘true

This is seriously psychotic stuff. martial law, property confiscations, 100's of 1000's of people detained.
 
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I can't wait for them to start chaining themselves to things.
 
So income tax and property tax are invalid. I am going to guess that sales tax is invalid, too - please correct me if I am wrong, Bluekush623. In post #185, you imply that even Freeman are subject to laws like murder. In the system you describe, who pays for the police, the local courthouse, the appeals courts, and the prisons?
 
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Alright, you don't work. So you don't get any food, right?

You don't work. So you don't get any shelter, right?

You don't work. So you don't get any medicine, right?

You don't work. So you don't get any clohtes or gas or television or Internet service, right?

I mean, other people work for these things. Other people work, if only to just survive. Why should you survive, if you don't work? Why should you survive off the benefit of other people's work, without doing any work of your own?

Please answer my serious questions: How does the concept of the Freeman on the Land address these points?

I surmise that it is possible for a Freeman to plant a farm and live off the food grown. No U.S. taxing body has ever said that taxes are owed on food that is grown for personal use. Such a person could also build his or her own house. As for the medicine, collecting a tax because a citizen trades some carrots for a bottle of aspirin appears to be the height of absurdity from the perspective a of a Freeman.
 
The only FMOTL 'theorist' (& I use that term in it's very broadest interpretation) to articulate a vision of the future is John Harris, leading light of TPUC.

http://www.tpuc.org/content/what-country-needs-benign-dictator-–-‘true

This is seriously psychotic stuff. martial law, property confiscations, 100's of 1000's of people detained.

I think merely saying property confiscations is a bit of an understatement. The entire city of London is seized by the government before every building is razed. Every religious building is seized and religion is outlawed. Every corporation is seized in the people's name. Every bank (and its assets) is seized. All private property owned by bankers or lawyers is seized. The list goes on.

My favorite part of the manifesto was "8. Every statue, monument or symbol would be destroyed."
 
I've asked this question b4 and it turns out that the taxes you pay on the work you do doesn't pay for these things, it goes straight to the imf or the world bank or whatever evil banking system the freeman likes. No, the money to pay for society comes from the dividend on your bond.


The dividend on the bond presumably being paid by the evil banking system from its tax revenue.
 
I think merely saying property confiscations is a bit of an understatement. The entire city of London is seized by the government before every building is razed. Every religious building is seized and religion is outlawed. Every corporation is seized in the people's name. Every bank (and its assets) is seized. All private property owned by bankers or lawyers is seized. The list goes on.

My favorite part of the manifesto was "8. Every statue, monument or symbol would be destroyed."


There are at least 150,000 lawyers in the UK (solicitors, barristers, legal executives, licenced conveyancers, patent & trade mark attorneys) + 100,000's who work in the financial services sector. Harris is going to need a huge internment camp.
 
Bush, thanks for coming back

will quote the Declaration Of Independence again.

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

So? They were referring to the British Imperial Government. You will note of course that immediately after the Constitution came into effect their was NOT a FOTL type government in effect.

How do you explain that?
 
We do not live in a indentured servitude society, we got rid of slavery 150+ years ago. There is no "entanglement" of benefits. This sounds uber fascist.
There is an entanglement of benefits.

You pay less for things thanks to patrolled roads. (I know I said I'd limit this to security but what follows is much more about security than roads, per se, plus you bring up roads yourself, so I feel no further obligation to avoid them.)

A patrolled road makes banditry riskier and therefore less likely to occur. Therefore, with the exception of extremely valuable commodities (large sums of cash, for example), most things shipped overland in the US have very little in the way of private security protecting them. Typically, a truck will be locked. There's no call for the hiring of armed security guards are escort vehicles in most cases.

As shipping companies do not have to worry as much about private security thanks to the patrolled roads, they save money they would otherwise spend. Since they save money, they can charge less to the manufacturers whose goods they carry, which means those manufacturers spend less.

Which, of course, means you spend less for those goods.

I feel very confident that some, if not most, of what you purchase has been shipped overland on patrolled roads, so I feel very confident in charging that you have materially benefited from the existence of the patrolled roads.

It's a pretty convoluted example, I admit, but that is by design. The purpose is to show the absolute entanglement both you and society are caught in. You can't help but benefit from this situation (without leaving), and society can't help but let you benefit from it (without removing you). There is no way to patrol the roads in such a way that shipments of things that will ultimately be bought by you are less secure than others, and there is no way for you to pay for the private security that would have had to exist had the roads not been patrolled.

Yes, you are stuck, by virtue of having been born and not left, receiving the benefits of society. Society is just as stuck, by virtue of your having been born and not removing you, giving them to you. As such, society is entitled to you helping, along with everyone else, pay for the things you benefit from.

I could easily make arguments to where "current society" has done nothing to benefit me, as the rapid deforestation of the land has made everything worse.
I have already illustrated that there is no way you receive no benefit from society. There may be an interesting philosophical question of whether you have received an overall net benefit from society, but it would also raise the question of whether society has received an overall net benefit from you.

It's ultimately irrelevant, anyway, because whether society has done you more harm than good does not affect your obligation to pay for what you receive. We can argue all day whether mega-corporations are a good thing, but if I want one of Wal-Marts too sweet t-shirts, I still have to give them $8.



No its not perfectly reasonable.

Just because some people want to build a road does not mean anyone else owes anything to them, period. They built the road for their own benefit, big deal that some "other" people get to use it. This is supposed to be America, remember?
There are no "other" people. There are people who pay for the road, and there are people who benefit from the road. These are the same people, and as long as you live among them, you are in the group.

Smaller example, Just because i shovel my sidewalk, plant flowers, clean the neighborhood does not mean people owe me anything. As i did it for my benefit and others also just happen to reap my benefits.
Smaller, and worse. Having a clean and pretty neighborhood is not a natural consequence of living in a neighborhood. Being more secure is a natural consequence of living in a society. There is no entanglement of benefits in your scenario.

Because they did not consent or ask for it. It is not their duty to recompense.
Continued presence and acceptance of benefits constitutes consent.
 
There are at least 150,000 lawyers in the UK (solicitors, barristers, legal executives, licenced conveyancers, patent & trade mark attorneys) + 100,000's who work in the financial services sector. Harris is going to need a huge internment camp.

Yes, but it is only temporary.

Not to say those responsible would get off scot-free more, humbled by humiliation as every action comes with a price and this is something they must remember. Languishing in some prison or as many would like hung from a rope would not service any needs and again would allow for the perpetuation of what exists. These people have forgot what it is like to truly serve their community after only serving the needs of the political community, far removed from the rest of us. They need to be helped back to their family, the true family they belong to and though humiliation and the knowing of all secrets this would naturally happen. Maybe they need to sweep the streets they once ‘thought’ they used to own.
 
There are frauds and loonies in Every sector of society (Government/Police Department/Banking Industry). This doesn't mean that the whole group is guilty.

It depends. Take a group of university professors, for example. There may be one or two who are a little odd, but on the whole the group will be fairly sane and sensible. Now take a group of inmates from a lunatic asylum. If you check up on a sample of them and determine that they are indeed completely nuts, it's fair to assume that the rest may well not be entirely sane either.

Guess which group Freeloaders on the Land are most similar to.
 
Have we ever received a proper answer to the question of why, if FOTLers don't want to live by a society's rules, they don't just leave that society?

They remind me of the hippies who ''dropped out of society,man'' in the 60's.I knew a few and they didn't drop out of the collecting their unemployment benefit part of society.The Freeloaders On The Scrounge are just the same.
 
Alright, you don't work. So you don't get any food, right?

You don't work. So you don't get any shelter, right?

You don't work. So you don't get any medicine, right?

You don't work. So you don't get any clohtes or gas or television or Internet service, right?

I mean, other people work for these things. Other people work, if only to just survive. Why should you survive, if you don't work? Why should you survive off the benefit of other people's work, without doing any work of your own?

Please answer my serious questions: How does the concept of the Freeman on the Land address these points?

The Freeloaders never address these points.It is a morally bankrupt movement.
 
Yes, but it is only temporary.


Phew! Thank God for that:covereyes

Bearing in mind I'm a lawyer I suppose I'm a prime candidate for admission to the 'Detention Camps' Harris mentions. Mind you I don't have much to look forward to upon release. I'll be out of work & without shelter as my house will have been confiscated (rendering the wife & kiddies homeless to boot). I suppose we could rig something up with rubble left over after the City has been demolished.

As for 'truly serving their community' well like the good boy I am I've dutifully paid my taxes. Harris hasn't:-

http://www.tpuc.org/content/last-two-years-hm-revenues-customs-have-be

No doubt he's enjoyed the public services my fellow slaves & I have paid for.

Harris is a very sick, weird, unpleasant man.
 
Cut him some slack, guys. It can be hard to track a conversation when there's a lot of...um...smoke in the air.

So you have made 3 posts in this thread and all 3 posts have been ad hominem attacks, Bravo!

Not to mention I have probably had dialogue with 20 people in this thread. So Im sorry if i missed 2 posts that were pointless. Crucify me.

ROFL. Being "released due to lack of evidence, illegal searches, etc." means that either (a) the prosecution failed to make its case ("lack of evidence"); or (b) did not make its case in approved fashion ("illegal searches"). Neither shows that the laws were unjust and unconstitutional.

It still doesn't mean that the laws are not unjust and unconstitutional.

Does the Retard know hes a Retard? Answer is No.

So don't expect unjust and unconstitutional to know they are unjust and unconstitutional.
 
I think you'll find that that means "the People" as a whole rather than individual people who happen to not want to obey particular laws.

And, whatever it was meant to mean when written, the way the system works now is that individuals are not free to opt out of laws by "not consenting" to them on an individual basis.

Wrong. Must i requote the DOI again?
 
Even if we hold the discussion purely to the American FOTL movement, the question still stands as to why these people aren't trying to change the system if it is so abhorrent to them.

Actually, did we ever determine if FOTL is supposed to be how the legal system works now, or if it's a hypothetical system that FOTLers want to see adopted?

You say people are not trying to change the system but the so called "Failed Attempts" prove people are trying to change things.

Whether or not you agree with their method.

And i have stated that becoming a freeman is a remedy to the system.

think of it like a relationship. you can choose to be with your partner (government) or not. and being a freeman is basically being single.

this is consent of the governed, no one can force anyone into any group.

if so please classify it what it is, slavery/dictatorship/ or whatever evil you want to call it.
 
You say people are not trying to change the system but the so called "Failed Attempts" prove people are trying to change things.

Whether or not you agree with their method.

And i have stated that becoming a freeman is a remedy to the system.

think of it like a relationship. you can choose to be with your partner (government) or not. and being a freeman is basically being single.

this is consent of the governed, no one can force anyone into any group.

if so please classify it what it is, slavery/dictatorship/ or whatever evil you want to call it.

It's called citizenship and it comes with rights and responsibilities. If you want to opt out you can. Leave!
 

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