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100 Reasons Why Evolution Is Stupid (Part 1 of 11)

I have never disagreed nor do I disagree with natural selection.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

BTW
It's the temporal effect conclusion that we don't agree on. Evolutionists take it to the point of fish ultimately changing into people. Something which I just don't by and neither do some others who are trained in the natural sciences.

Realistically it's fungus!

Did you know that the biological diversity is largest in bacteria, all fungi>plants>animals make up less than 10% of the genetic diversity.

So why, if there is ID, is this so?
Did they start with fungi or did they like making bacteria as well?
 
I should have said to consider the possibility of it being or not being the work of a creator shouldn't be the place of science,


I agree. The Theory of Evolution taught in schools does not mention God in any way, whatsoever. Nor should it. The only reason the God question rears its head here is that many fundamentalists are afraid that belief in evolution leads to atheism. It doesn't have to. Many religious people believe in evolution. Hell, even the Pope believes in evolution.


but from the perspective of those who study the Bible that is exactly what science minded atheists do with science. Not that science proposes either one of those things.


Yes, but there is a reason for that. Normally, atheists will say they don't believe in gods. In many cases, when the reponse is along the lines of, "well, how do you explain x?", atheists are forced to respond honestly by communicating what they DO believe and why. This often falls back on science.

But a distinction needs to be made here. SCIENCE does not say anything about gods, but an atheist can present SCIENCE as a benchmark of the level of evidence required to convince them of gods.
 
I wasn't sure what the study actually said, I just took it to mean that an individual bird's beak changed depending on the season, which would be similar to the dog or tree example I had at the end.

Yes, and either one would be a good example of evolution at work, just in different ways.
 
I agree. The Theory of Evolution taught in schools does not mention God in any way, whatsoever. Nor should it. The only reason the God question rears its head here is that many fundamentalists are afraid that belief in evolution leads to atheism. It doesn't have to.

This is what I've tried to explain to people for years. Evolution and religion are not, in any way, mutually exclusive.
 
hey DH!

I already said this: (in other words)
"Without any evidence associated with the earliest instant of the expansion, the Big Bang theory cannot and does not provide any explanation for such an initial condition; rather, it describes and explains the general evolution of the Universe since that instant"

So you missed that, so philosophy asks a question science can't answer. The BBt does not answer the question "What exploded?", that does not mean that the BBt is not a very valid theory.

It means there is a question without a good answer.
 
You are absolutely right, and that is the way it should be. I apologize for my mistake. I should have said to consider the possibility of it being or not being the work of a creator shouldn't be the place of science, but from the perspective of those who study the Bible that is exactly what science minded atheists do with science. Not that science proposes either one of those things.

Most theistic scientists consider God an unnecessary hypothesis.
If God is not implicated: you can not prove it, as his implication could just be hidden.
If God is implicated: you wouldn't know it either. Sure your naturalistic theories and explanation will always be found lacking; precisely, the 'God element'. But how do you know what they are lacking is God rather than some, as yet unknown, naturalistic phenomenon?
What would assuming 'God did it' bring to the table? At best, you keep on looking, just in case, and it doesn't change anything. At worst, you decide you have your answer and stop investigating the phenomenon and it later turn out there was a natural explanation after all that you just missed.

Better to assume that there is no supernatural explanation, that all explanation are ultimately and knowable and that, if we don't know the answer, it is not because it is Godly and unknowable but because we have not figured it out yet and need to keep looking.
There is plenty of area where science is in the 'we don't know but we are still looking' phase. Dark energy is a particularly egregious example. What happened before the Plank Epoch is another and maybe, God does hide there, and science will never find it.

There are also plenty of areas where we are reasonably sure that we do know. That the story makes sense and only the details need to be figured out.
The theory of evolution is such a science.

And, of course, there are plenty in between, when we are starting to see the outlines but still need a lot of work to precise our understanding and test it to gain confidence...
Abiogenesis is such a field. We are starting to see how nucleic base pair would spontaneously emerge and react with each other, and we know that such sequences can generate self-replicating sequences but we still have to work out a lot. The sequences that appear tend to be short, and so far, we only know of fairly long sequences that are self-replicating. There is a gap there that we don't really know how to bridge.
Maybe we will find it out finally. Maybe a God did do it and or investigations are doomed to fail, but the only way to know is to keep looking and sticking a 'Good did it' stamp on it and pretending to have the answer is not going to help...
 
You have had many answers.
That they aren't the ones you want to hear is your problem, not ours.

Let me elaborate:

You begin by announcing that "evolution is stupid", and proceed to define evolution in a way that nobody who understands it ever would.

You have a deep misunderstanding of what the theory of evolution is.

This is the reason the answers you get don't satisfy you.

But the simple reality is that the problem lies with you.
You need to educate yourself about the subject your are argunig against.

Because at the moment, your whole argument is the equivalent of "Gravity is stupid because it doesn't explain magentism!"

The definitions you have gleaned from Hovind are fundamentally wrong.

And startign from such a point will only result in your continual protests that nobody has answered your queries.

Well, we have answered you. We've told you time and again that you don't understand evolution or cosmology, that what you are arguing against is not what the theories actually say. The trouble is, you keep asking question that make no sense. They make no sense, because they are based on an egregious misunderstanding of the theories.

But instead of learning something, you dance in glee and say "Look! See! I told you those stoopid evolutionist atheists are dumb! They can't answer a simple question!".

You are appallingly misinformed about the subjects you are trying to discuss. Instead of protesting that we haven't given you the answers you want, and asking nonsense questions, why don't you try learning somethnig.

Take some advice that's been repeated here often enough:

Forget "Dr" Kent Hovind. The man is an imbecile. He lies and distorts habitually, and the information you are parroting from him has no basis in reality. He does not talk about evolution. He speaks about some ******** idea he came up based on his own pathetic (and willful) ignorance of the subject.

This.

I was an anthropology student. We studied evolution extensively. I have taken several classes specifically on the subject of evolution. I've read all of Darwin's books, and a huge number of books on the theory of evolution.

I have never, not once, been told that cosmology had anything what so ever to do with evolution. I know next to NOTHING about cosmology save what I've learned from "Scientific American" episodes, Dana Sobel's "Planets," and Bill Bryson's "A Short History of Nearly Everything." Cosmology and evolution are completely, utterly different fields of study. They are not the same. I don't even know how to address a person who starts off the argument by saying that cosmology is part of evolutionary study. I don't know how to argue against this, because the entire question starts from a false premise.
If this is the kind of argument Hovind uses in debates, then it's not surprising he appears to "mop the floor with people." If I were to engage in debate, I would have the expectation that the person would even know what we were debating.

It would be like going to a debate about, say, the merits of offshore drilling after the BP oil spill, and the opening argument is, "How can you possibly justify off shore drilling after catastrophies like Chernoble?"


The biggest problem I have found with people who deny evolution is that they have never actually studied arguments FOR evolution. Most people (like the OP) who don't "believe" in evolution cannot even properly define it. They just listen to people like Ray Comfort or Hovind who TELLS them what evolution is, and then their "debunking" seems solid because they are debating things no one has ever claimed to be true in the first place.

I have time and time again pressed people who deny evolution to please, just read ONE book on the subject by someone who is not a creationist. Read Coyne's wonderful, "Why Evolution is True." I have never, ever had someone agree to do this.

And the whole "evolution is a religion" argument is just ridiculous. Evolutionary science is based on observations about the physical world and allows scientists to make accurate predictions. For instance, Neil Shubin stated that a transitional species between fish and amphibians would be found in a certain kind of environment, and would be at a certain point in the fossil record (the time between the emergence of fish and the emergence of amphibians). Low and behold, Tiktaalik, a transitional species that is half fish, half amphibian, was found in the exact kind of environment he said it would, and fell into the fossil record timeline where he said it would.

Also, religion is based on principles that are sacred. Scientific training, ESPECIALLY when it comes to evolution, comes with the premise, "Question everything. Nothing is sacred." In fact, something can only be accepted as a scientific theory if it can be disproved given conflicting evidence. So, for instance, evolutionary theory as it exists would be disproved if we were to suddenly find evidence in the fossil record that there were mammals before there were troglodytes. The very fact that scientific theory is only accepted if it could possibly be disproven makes it utterly different that religion. For something to be "sacred" requires faith. Faith is not reliant on proof or evidence. Therefor, something believed due to faith alone could not be disproven... i.e. there is no way to prove God/reincarnation/etc does not exist. The fact that evolution COULD be disproven if the evidence presented itself makes it, by default, not a product of faith.
 
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Originally Posted by excaza
Evolution and religion are not, in any way, mutually exclusive.
They are if the religion says god created Adam in one hit, and Eve from his rib.

Or if said religion claims virgin birth, resurrection from the dead, worldwide flood, 6000 year old earth......and a few other minor details.
 
They are if the religion says god created Adam in one hit, and Eve from his rib.

Or if said religion claims virgin birth, resurrection from the dead, worldwide flood, 6000 year old earth......and a few other minor details.

Strictly speaking, no. What one single, or even several individual religions do, has only a limited impact what religion (uncountable) on the whole does. :p
 
The same proof we would claim if we found an arrowhead on another planet.
Of what use to science were the truths discovered by Hume or Descarte?
Some truths are just truths and if rejected because they don't serve science, then wee wind up rejecting logic itself and mentally go back to the stone age.


It doesn't necessarily follow . If we find a n intricate fascinating machine and logically conclude that someone designed it!" we don't then say "Well, since someone designed it, now I'm not interested in how it works!" In fact, that conclusion goes completely contrary to human psychology which is characterized by insatiable curiosity. The first hings humans do when they find intricate things is dive right in to see how they work.




No, the scientists who disagree with evolution don't do it because it's fun. Neither do people who agree with these scientists. They and we do so because we find the evidence compelling as the quotes I posted pointed out. If you read them then you wouldn't or at least shouldn't be misrepresenting our position. It's annoying and makes for poor discussion.

BTW
When you say that a belief in an ID discourages thinking, you are probably thinking of the Catholic Church and its opposition to certain discoveries that would have made their false teachings suspect and undermined its authority.

Please take note that in China and the Arab world, which contributed substantially to human technological progress, belief in an ID proved no such hindrance.

But your whole argument for ID falls on a single IF. IF there had been any proof that there was a design in nature, THEN ID might be a reasonable theory to explain how life might have originated, although it still is useless at predicting evolution in general as we would have no way of knowing how,when or for what reason said intelligences might intervene again.
But those few serious peer reviewed papers proposing ID have had their arguments refuted. Nothing irreproducably complex or unobtainable through mutation has been found in nature yet.
While those believing the arguments for ID might find them compelling, their science so far is not concinving. I do not say they should stop looking, as that would indeed be unscientific. But neither should theories unsupported by solid evidence be given equal credence to those that are.
Else we should also teach there are those that believe the sun is actually a hollow iron shell powered by electricity.

I do not believe the contributions of philosophers about thruth and rightness and moral are useless. In fact I consider them to be an essential part of humanity. As is art and music. But that does not mean that philosophy has a place in biology any more than I would ask an artist to design a sattellite.

And no I do not point at certain religions when I say that ID stifles speculation and research. Since the theory randomly points at things and says 'these could not possibly have evolved'. When those suggesting this are then shown theories on how these things could have evolved, what the precursors were, what steps need to be undertaken, what roles the pre-components played based on homology and experimentation and how they could have joined up in time to form the 'complex machine' I've yet to see a reaction that doesn't come down to.
'I don't believe it, so your data is false'
That is not science. That is philosophy and should therefore be treated as such.
 
I should have said to consider the possibility of it being or not being the work of a creator shouldn't be the place of science, but from the perspective of those who study the Bible that is exactly what science minded atheists do with science. Not that science proposes either one of those things.

Yeah, that's exactly what the Christian scientists that agree with the "science minded atheists" do with science. :rolleyes:

A science minded atheist doesn't say "this disproves god", a science minded atheist just says this phenomenon is explainable without god.

Which you yourself do (unless you believe floods and lightning and earthquakes are caused by the gods), you just draw an artificial line in the science somewhere based on nothing more than wishful thinking, not based on science.

You have a deep misunderstanding of what the theory of evolution is.

This is the reason the answers you get don't satisfy you.

But the simple reality is that the problem lies with you.
You need to educate yourself about the subject your are argunig against.

He hasn't accepted or even refused your offer of the book though, he's ignored it. So learning about it isn't really his interest I don't think.
 
Has not this entire thread grown exactly as one would predict a thread that began with a declaration of prisoner Hovind's scientific expertise should?
 
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Good point, I agree totally. I should have perhaps worded it differently, or written "failed experiment".

I guess if I were in their shoes at the time, I would have been bummed out for a while at least until I realized what was going on.:)

heh - true, I'm pretty sure they didn't look at the data and immediately say to themselves, "well, that was a successful experiment!"
 
I've had an epiphany.

You can't fight stupidity with logic. Stupidity will always win, because it doesn't have to work nearly as hard.

You might as well fight it with mockery. It's just as effective and more entertaining.

I had an epiphany once. I had it removed.

The battle between theists and atheists is not a fight. It's a two-ring circus.

In Ring 1 there is the Theist, with one hand poking a stick in the lion's face, and with the other raising the Bible, screaming "God is my shield!"

In Ring 2 there is the Atheist, laughing at the clown in Ring 1.
 
Could someone point me to a single post for Davey-boy that actually provided any relevant criticism of the Theory of Evolution that is not based on his simple uneducated ignorance and false nonsense from some random nobody who doesn't even know the basic definition of what he talking about? Any at all?

Has Raddy even presented what the Intelligent Design Hypothesis is yet and what the supporting evidence is for said claims? Any?
 
...Also, do you believe that the prediction made by the Big Bang Theory that the cosmic microwave radiation background would be discovered was just a lucky guess? Would Intelligent Design have made that prediction and, if not, how would ID scientists explain the CMRB once it was discovered by accident (unlikely since ID scientists would have no reason to go looking for it).

Oddly enough the CMBR actually was discovered by accident:

In 1965, Arno Penzias and Robert Woodrow Wilson at the Crawford Hill location of Bell Telephone Laboratories in nearby Holmdel Township, New Jersey had built a Dicke radiometer that they intended to use for radio astronomy and satellite communication experiments. Their instrument had an excess 3.5 K antenna temperature which they could not account for.
...
A meeting between the Princeton and Crawford Hill groups determined that the antenna temperature was indeed due to the microwave background. Penzias and Wilson received the 1978 Nobel Prize in Physics for their discovery.
 

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