$1,000,000 Challenge

[Navigator]

Firstly, who are these "genuine" paranormal practitioners ?

Greetings The Don

They are those who through personal experience of the paranormal have opened the eyes of their understanding and allowed this to propel them into areas where sceptics fear to tread.
They are those who do not use individual beliefs in the paranormal to swindle and give bad advice to.

In this light, they are probable of no interest to the JREF although they might still be of interest to fervent sceptics, even for the sake of finding something to argue about.



Secondly, it's difficult to say what harm is being caused. If a practitioner manages to persuade someone not to seek help because of some mumbled platitiudes then I'd say harm is being caused. Harm is also being done to the application of scientific method when these irrational beliefs are allowed to propogate. We then end up with an attitude where parents fail to immunise their children because of the say-so of some crank


Or even fail to tell their children that santa is for those who believe in supporting income generating myths -
Which all points to the necessity that as individuals we have the soul responsibility to decide for ourself the path we wish to take without encumbering this upon others, and then bemoaning the fact when we discover we have been led astray.
This is why it is important for us to consider Children...they do not have those abilities to understand the necessity of being responsible for their own choices...they believe what their parents tell them.
So the answer would be to teach Children HOW to be resonsible for their own choices.


Thirdly, I would not teach my children (not that I have them) about a factual Santa. I would tell them about a fictional one (in the same way as they may get told about Cindarella or Jesus) and I would probably try and have some fun with it.

Well maybe when you do have Children, you will show them by example as to what you have learned yourself about the power of individual choice and the resposibility which goes with this power.

That is a fun thing to do.

 

[Dancing David]

posted by navigator

If they are satisfing clients, then no harm is done - just like with Santa - they are providing a nitch for a need.

As long as there is no harm or ethical violatons. frequently telling people the truth may hurt thier feelings but that is not harm.

Keeping people from health and charging for metaphysical advice are unethical. I am not too popular with the therapy crowd either, I have offended many a friend by telling them that they are wasting thier money after twelve weeks.

PS Navigator, while I have seen some cool stuff in my time like oracular cows and a flying witch, I haven't seen good evidence of the paranormal yet.

 

[Navigator]

PS Navigator, while I have seen some cool stuff in my time like oracular cows and a flying witch, I haven't seen good evidence of the paranormal yet.

Witches fly everyday so this can hardly be concidered paramormal

Greeting Dancing David

maybe you having never seen anything paranormal is plain and simply coincidence - nothing more...don't read anything too permanant into it.

Ya just never know

 

[Darat]

That would only prove some sort of ESP, not talking to the dead.

For the challenge it doesn't really matter.

The claim is that you can get the information, saying you can get the information via ESP, supersonic-Psi or mediumship is the theory or explanation and the JREF makes it quite clear it isn't interested in that.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

It is easy to demonstrate that mediumship works. Just talk to a dead person.


...snip...

I'm in the money!

Hey Randi I can talk to my dead grandmother*, can I have the million now?



(Granted she doesn't talk back to me.)

 

[Navigator]

I thought I already Posted this...

We have no interest in theories or explanations of how the claimed powers might work; if you provide us with such material, it will be ignored and discarded.


Suggestion: Add...When the participant wins the claim, then we will have great interest in theories and explanations regarding the proved powers.

Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the testing may be used freely by JREF in any way that Mr. Randi may choose.


Suggestion: This is too ripe with hierarchical Insinuation. Fair enough - you have (hypothetically) provided the winning claimant(s) with $ he/she/they can invest into their continuing to present *The World the evidence required.
Remember respectfully their own contribution to the process and share in the profits of the discovery.
In any case ALL data regarding such would belong to The World.

All expenses such as transportation, accommodation, materials, assistants, and/or all other costs for any persons or procedures incurred in pursuit of the reward, are the sole responsibility of the applicant. Neither the JREF nor JR will bear any of the costs.

What if the provable paranormal is only operating among the honest poor? Won‘t *The World miss out entirely?

This offer is open to any and all persons, in any part of the world, regardless of gender, race, educational background, etc., and will continue in effect until the prize is awarded. Upon the death of James Randi, the administration of the prize will pass into other hands, and it is intended that it continue in force.

These are long drawn out processes, after all.

Be advised that you should conduct proper, secure, tests of your own, to determine whether your abilities or claims are actually valid. Some persons who failed to do this, have undergone serious embarrassment and emotional stress, as a result. This advice is offered only so that you might be spared these problems.

Suggestion: Since it is known that there are quiet a number of dysfunctional individuals who explore paranormal, to save them from these stress and discomfort, screen them before the chance to embarrass them unfolds.
Otherwise, if this is not possible, well we all get a good laugh out of it I suppose.

 

[Dancing David]

Re: I thought I already Posted this...

Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the testing may be used freely by JREF in any way that Mr. Randi may choose.


Suggestion: This is too ripe with hierarchical Insinuation. Fair enough - you have (hypothetically) provided the winning claimant(s) with $ he/she/they can invest into their continuing to present *The World the evidence required.
Remember respectfully their own contribution to the process and share in the profits of the discovery.
In any case ALL data regarding such would belong to The World.

I think that the point here is not that the claimant gives Randi the rights to thier powers and abilities. I think that it is that randi and deal with the reseults of the test anyway he wants. The claimant can not sue Randi for the publication of the reselts, although it does give Randi the right to not publish them. Hmmm...

What if the provable paranormal is only operating among the honest poor? Won‘t *The World miss out entirely?

The point is not that Randi is looking to prove the paranormal, he is hoping to silence those who make the claim of paranormal powers. It gives them the chance to prove it. It is a chance not a search, say that the claimant claims they need the Hope diamond, then it is up to the claimant to get the diamond.

Suggestion: Since it is known that there are quiet a number of dysfunctional individuals who explore paranormal, to save them from these stress and discomfort, screen them before the chance to embarrass them unfolds.
Otherwise, if this is not possible, well we all get a good laugh out of it I suppose.
[/B]

That would be the preliminary, Randi is just suggesting the prudent course.

 

[Navigator]

The point is not that Randi is looking to prove the paranormal, he is hoping to silence those who make the claim of paranormal powers.

If this is so, then the money is safe yes?

The document is so worded as to appear that the JREF are actually interested and that the $ is an incentive to prove paranormal powers (can't be done) rather than show evidence that say - an Invisible Intelligence (not paranormal in the strictest sense) can be communicated with on an individual basis, and can prove Itself to the individual.

Is this whole set-up merely a way then of ensuring that sceptics always have something to feed their sense of humours and uphold their belief systems in favour of any other beliefs contrary to their own?

One would hope that this whole JREF promotion is more than just another example of charlatanism.

 

[TheBoyPaj]

Re: I thought I already Posted this...

Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the testing may be used freely by JREF in any way that Mr. Randi may choose.

I've never had a problem with this clause, though some seem to think it removes the applicant's right to also use the data. It doesn't. It simply says that Randi can use it all too. If he chooses not to, the applicant is free to publish if they wish. Interested observers will make up their own mind based on this evidence. Nothing sinister about it.

All expenses such as transportation, accommodation, materials, assistants, and/or all other costs for any persons or procedures incurred in pursuit of the reward, are the sole responsibility of the applicant. Neither the JREF nor JR will bear any of the costs.

What if the provable paranormal is only operating among the honest poor? Won‘t *The World miss out entirely?

What's the alternative? Have Randi put his hand in his pocket for every loon who wants to try his luck? Put them up in hotels? Pay for their lunch? I'm sure that if some poor psychic (though they always seem to find ways of making money) comes along they will be able to locate a sponsor. There are plenty of wealthy believers who might fancy a gamble.

 

[Dancing David]

Navigator:

This is from the JREF mission area, you should understand that Randi is a debunker, out to get those who dupe, delude and abuse others while claiming that they have paranormal powers. Randi has never stated that he is a paranormal investigator, there are plenty of those for the believers.

Creating a new generation of critical thinkers through lively classroom demonstrations and by reaching out to the next generation in the form of scholarships and awards.

Demonstrating to the public and the media, through educational seminars, the consequences of accepting paranormal and supernatural claims without questioning.

Supporting and conducting research into paranormal claims through well-designed experiments utilizing "the scientific method" and by publishing the findings in the JREF official newsletter, Swift, and other periodicals. Also providing reliable information on paranormal and pseudoscientific claims by maintaining a comprehensive library of books, videos, journals, and archival resources open to the public.

Assisting those who are being attacked as a result of their investigations and criticism of people who make paranormal claims, by maintaining a legal defense fund available to assist these individuals.

 

[Navigator]

If he chooses not to, the applicant is free to publish if they wish. Interested observers will make up their own mind based on this evidence. Nothing sinister about it.

Sinister? Who mentioned sinister?

Looky here...lift it up a little okay. The push is to expose liars and frauds right?
So...as has already stated in this thread, those who use belief in paranormal and the ignorance of others for their own profit are what this JREF are about exposing
Lift it up - make it 2,000,000 for any religion which can prove the existence of their god!

Why are there forums here which allow for individuals to argue for or against?
What has this to do with JREF?

JREF do know absolutely that the paranormal is nothing more than a huge human hoax right?

Then there are those who have said that this is not so. That Randi and company would like nothing better than to award the $ to the successful claimant.


What's the alternative? Have Randi put his hand in his pocket for every loon who wants to try his luck?

Belief in the paranormal = "loon" ?
Would you say TheBoyPaj, that this is the standard belief the JREF have regarding the paranormal in general and it's participants in particular?
No I am not suggesting that the foundation pays for the 'loon' who has no way of paying their way. I made the point because it was valid.
In the end, and assuming the prize $ is growing interest, once James dies (and sees for himself) and once those who have taken over the trusteeship have also departed and seen for themselves, Santa may still be a big suck on the kiddies, the paranormal would be classified as 'assumed beliefs of a few individuals gained from unusual experience of an invisible nature'', the existence of the Soul would have been proved by authorative science and the world will have moved on in that direction, leaving elderly debunkers and 'loons' to their dusty selves.
To die eventually and discover for themselves.

The $ will still be unclaimed.

Unless there is a balance to the JREF agenda.

Must still be 'early days' yes?





This is from the JREF mission area, you should understand that Randi is a debunker, out to get those who dupe, delude and abuse others while claiming that they have paranormal powers. Randi has never stated that he is a paranormal investigator, there are plenty of those for the believers.

Ah...now we are getting somewhere Dancing David.

One cannot be an investingator whilst one is a debunker.

Who may that rule up?

 

[Dancing David]

Why are there forums here which allow for individuals to argue for or against?
What has this to do with JREF?
The forums are to promote critical thinking which is why the split is coming.

JREF do know absolutely that the paranormal is nothing more than a huge human hoax right?

I would not say that and a fair number of posters would not say so either. Many of us believe that there are human experiences that account for a belief in the paranormal.

Then there are those who have said that this is not so. That Randi and company would like nothing better than to award the $ to the successful claimant.

I think it would be cool because it would open new areas of thought and inverstigation.

No I am not suggesting that the foundation pays for the 'loon' who has no way of paying their way. I made the point because it was valid.

I think that the point is that it is not a valid excuse to say that you need the Hope diamond.


Ah...now we are getting somewhere Dancing David.

One cannot be an investingator whilst one is a debunker.

Who may that rule up?

Not I, I just used the phrase debunker to clarify Randi's apparent position. I used investigator to suggest people like WWU777 who investigates the paranormal as a believer.

 

[Navigator]

I think that the point is that it is not a valid excuse to say that you need the Hope diamond.

I think I read mention of this diamond in prior posting. What exactly is the connection between this diamond as an example, and the paranormal?

 

[TheBoyPaj]

If he chooses not to, the applicant is free to publish if they wish. Interested observers will make up their own mind based on this evidence. Nothing sinister about it.

Sinister? Who mentioned sinister?

In the past, some have suggested that this part of the agreement would prevent them from using the data. That it is a trick.

What's the alternative? Have Randi put his hand in his pocket for every loon who wants to try his luck?

Belief in the paranormal = "loon" ?
Would you say TheBoyPaj, that this is the standard belief the JREF have regarding the paranormal in general and it's participants in particular?
No I am not suggesting that the foundation pays for the 'loon' who has no way of paying their way. I made the point because it was valid.

Not everyone who believes in the paranormal is a loon, no. And I am not the one to say what the JREF's opinion of believers is.
But if ANYONE makes an offer which involves paying for accomodation, travel expenses and the like, there are always going to be people who want to try it on. They might not even think they have powers, they might just like a trip to Florida! Remember, this challenge is a worldwide offer. How many people do you think there are in the world who would like to ride the Randi gravy train for a while? The million would be used up pretty quickly, even if no-one passed the test!

Like I said, people who claim psychic powers often have a knack for securing funding.

 

[Navigator]

In the past, some have suggested that this part of the agreement would prevent them from using the data. That it is a trick.



Not everyone who believes in the paranormal is a loon, no. And I am not the one to say what the JREF's opinion of believers is.
But if ANYONE makes an offer which involves paying for accomodation, travel expenses and the like, there are always going to be people who want to try it on. They might not even think they have powers, they might just like a trip to Florida! Remember, this challenge is a worldwide offer. How many people do you think there are in the world who would like to ride the Randi gravy train for a while? The million would be used up pretty quickly, even if no-one passed the test!

Like I said, people who claim psychic powers often have a knack for securing funding.

Yes but I said "Honest poor"
I made the point because it was valid.

What if the provable paranormal is only operating among the honest poor? Won‘t *The World miss out entirely?

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Navigator, do you honestly think that someone who can move rocks with his mind or cure illnesses with his hands is going to have trouble coming up with some cash? And don't forget, the preliminary test is almost always conducted where the claimant lives.

These are just more examples of the "if only this minor detail were fixed, the world would be turned on its head by this claimant" excuse for lack of evidence.

~~ Paul

 

[Aster]

the filpside of the JREF challenge

There is a flipside that I think is an interesting perspective on the challenge, and that is to design a test for someone well known for claiming that supernatural ability does not exist. I wrote about this before in one of my own threads. Create a test wherein the subject would be hypnotised and connected to the realm of his own superconscious reality. This way, even mr James Randi could be put to the test and discover that he is able to do things that he may not be able to when in a normal state of wake consciousness. On a broader scale, given the talent of the subject medium (everyone has these abilities in one form and grade or another) it could be a strive to finally point out the person with the best abilities, unmatched by anyone. I think that such a person should be throned as paranormal king of the year.

Rgds.,
Aster.

 

[TheBoyPaj]

Yes but I said "Honest poor"
I made the point because it was valid.

Honest poor? How do you determine who these people are? Is simply being poor enough? How do you verify that they really do believe they have powers and aren't simply lying to get a free flight?

 

[TheBoyPaj]

Re: the filpside of the JREF challenge

There is a flipside that I think is an interesting perspective on the challenge, and that is to design a test for someone well known for claiming that supernatural ability does not exist. I wrote about this before in one of my own threads. Create a test wherein the subject would be hypnotised and connected to the realm of his own superconscious reality. This way, even mr James Randi could be put to the test and discover that he is able to do things that he may not be able to when in a normal state of wake consciousness.

Whoa! Don't run before you can walk. We're still looking for ANY person who can do these paranormal things. Find one of those, THEN wonder about hypnotising a sceptic to do the same.

(everyone has these abilities in one form and grade or another) it could be a strive to finally point out the person with the best abilities, unmatched by anyone. I think that such a person should be throned as paranormal king of the year.

The paranormal king or queen will be the FIRST person who can reliably demonstrate psychic phenomena. They will instantly be the best.

 

[Aster]

Re: Re: the filpside of the JREF challenge

Whoa! Don't run before you can walk.

>> I realize I'm a little quicker than most of you skeptic guys. But believe me when I say that I can walk faster than you can ever hope to run. hehe

Rgds.,
Aster.