Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[lionking]

How about this take:

The people being beaten were shooting (and killing) other humans with guns.


An unnamed Israeli commando, who purportedly led the raid on the Mavi Marmara, today told Israeli news website Ynet News that he shot at a protester who approached him with a knife. "I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs," he said. "I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below."


Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range

Are you serious? A soldier is confronted by someone approaching him with a knife. He gets shot at. There's a problem here?

 

[yairhol]

How about this take:

The people being beaten were shooting (and killing) other humans with guns.


An unnamed Israeli commando, who purportedly led the raid on the Mavi Marmara, today told Israeli news website Ynet News that he shot at a protester who approached him with a knife. "I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs," he said. "I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below."


Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range

Based on your post, the soldier's life was in danger and he acted as expected.
I'm sure any reasonable person would have acted the same way.

 

[JihadJane]

What does this prove, JJ? If a cop is approached by a man with a knife, and the cop orders the man to stop / drop the weapon, if he doesn't the cop can shoot to kill.

What have cops got to do with it?



"A half hour after the attack, despite electronic warfare, the "Mavi Marmara" ship continued to broadcast images on the internet thanks to a sophisticated system run by a Turkish volunteer. Then, I saw him dead after he was shot in the head."

Plionis, who was one of the Greek citizens aboard the Turkish vessel, said, "Israel's priority was to stop scenes of the attack from being broadcasted". He recalled that the Turkish activists spread almost a hundred cameras on the ship which transmitted images systematically. "The broadcast was discontinued when the person who was running the network was killed," he added.

Plionis said that he resorted to the ship's media center at the request of the Turkish captain when the attack took place, and that after the Zionist commandos took over the ship, they "beat reporters… and smashed every last camera, computer, and telephone".

Wouldn't it be interesting to see all that footage that the Israeli military chose not to let the world see?


Greek witness: Israeli forces killed Turkish activist to stop media broadcast

~~~~~~~~

Based on your post, the soldier's life was in danger and he acted as expected.
I'm sure any reasonable person would have acted the same way.

And isn't it reasonable that others would try to stop him from killing any more people with his gun?

 

[IDB87]

Are you serious? A soldier is confronted by someone approaching him with a knife. He gets shot at. There's a problem here?

If you read the article, it makes the bizarre claim that they planned to use lethal force from the get-go.

The findings emerged as more survivors gave their accounts of the raids. Ismail Patel, the chairman of Leicester-based pro-Palestinian group Friends of al-Aqsa, who returned to Britain today, told how he witnessed some of the fatal shootings and claimed that Israel had operated a "shoot to kill" policy.

Which is something JJ has been claiming for a while now, despite posting a link earlier in this thread (twice) which focused on an excerpt from an Israeli source stating they were going to board the ship and, and that lethal force was to be used only in 'emergency situations'. Emergency situations equates to 'top priority', apparently, despite claims to the contrary.

 

[yairhol]

That doesn't address the point about the imbalance in might in the slightest.

Rolfe.

What would the U.S. do if Cuba fired over 3000 rockets at U.S. civilian population over a course of a single year?
I'm imagining the U.S. would wipe Cuba off the map.

 

[lionking]

If you read the article, it makes the bizarre claim that they planned to use lethal force from the get-go.



Which is something JJ has been claiming for a while now, despite posting a link earlier in this thread (twice) which focused on an excerpt from an Israeli source stating they were going to board the ship and, and that lethal force was to be used only in 'emergency situations'. Emergency situations equates to 'top priority', apparently, despite claims to the contrary.

A pro-Palestinian group is a rock-solid, unbiased source.

 

[yairhol]

And isn't it reasonable that others would try to stop him from killing any more people with his gun?

Only if they want to get shot by keeping the threat on the Israeli soldiers' lives.

The analogy to a cop is correct by IDB87. If a gang of outlaws attack a cop and he shoots at one of them and the rest of the gang comes after the cop, they take the risk of getting shot as well. If they lower their weapons they raise their chances of staying alive by a mile.

 

[IDB87]

What have cops got to do with it?

It's the same situation. Google 'cops kill man wielding knife', there are plenty of stories of law enforcement putting down people wielding knives and ignoring commands. That mentality carries over to soldiers, as well, especially in a situation like the Mavi Marmara, except this time there were actual stabbings.

Plionis, who was one of the Greek citizens aboard the Turkish vessel, said, "Israel's priority was to stop scenes of the attack from being broadcasted". He recalled that the Turkish activists spread almost a hundred cameras on the ship which transmitted images systematically. "The broadcast was discontinued when the person who was running the network was killed," he added.[/I]

Wouldn't it be interesting to see all that footage that the Israeli chose not to let the world see?

Certainly.

Where was Mr Plionis found after he had been killed? What was he doing before he was shot? What was going on around him?

Doesn't this contradict your claim that they were silenced?

And isn't it reasonable that others would try to stop him feom killing any more people with his gun?

It's logical they would do something if they could and had an opportunity.

 

[JihadJane]

Only if they want to get shot by keeping the threat on the Israeli soldiers' lives.

The analogy to a cop is correct by IDB87. If a gang of outlaws attack a cop and he shoots at one of them and the rest of the gang comes after the cop, they take the risk of getting shot as well. If they lower their weapons they raise their chances of staying alive by a mile.

You appear to be a little confused about who are the outlaws in the case!

Multiple witnesses report that people had been killed with bullets from above before the soldiers were on the deck.

 

[a_unique_person]

West Bank is Fatah territory.

But Hamas's rockets don't reach that far and they've run out of Fatah to kill in Gaza.

If it was Fatah, there wouldn't be any settlements being built.

 

[yairhol]

You appear to be a little confused about who are the outlaws in the case!

Multiple witnesses report that people had been killed with bullets from above before the soldiers were on the deck.

Not confused at all.
I know perfectly well that the terrorists were on board the Marmara. How can anyone get that mixed up?

 

[JihadJane]

What would the U.S. do if Cuba fired over 3000 rockets at U.S. civilian population over a course of a single year?
I'm imagining the U.S. would wipe Cuba off the map.

Is that what you think Israel should do to Gaza?

 

[IDB87]

You appear to be a little confused about who are the outlaws in the case!

Multiple witnesses report that people had been killed with bullets from above before the soldiers were on the deck.

Witnesses also claim they did not start shooting until three soldiers had been jumped and beaten.

Why is this conflicting account ignored?

 

[JihadJane]

Not confused at all.
I know perfectly well that the terrorists were on board the Marmara. How can anyone get that mixed up?

How do you "know perfectly well"?

Perhaps you'd like to share your evidence that there were "terrorists" on board the Mavi Marmara. The Israeli military hasn't provided any.

 

[JihadJane]

Witnesses also claim they did not start shooting until three soldiers had been jumped and beaten.

Why is this conflicting account ignored?

Which witness and ignored by whom?

 

[IDB87]

Which witness and ignored by whom?

Andre Abu-Khalil, Al Jazeera cameraman,

"First they [the Israelis] tried to come by helicopter and tried to come down on the main deck. But the Turkish people were gathering on the rooftop and they managed to grab three of the soldiers, which led to a second helicopter to come and start shooting live bullets on the people."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/20106193546785656.html#abukhalil

You were the one who posted the link.

**double edit

The first soldiers on the ship were not killed, they were not shot at, they were captured by the defenders of the ship.

Moments later another bigger helicopter landed more troops and this time they fired immediately at people and killed as many as they could so that they could reach the cabin and take control of the ship.

At 4:15, tens of Navy boats carrying tens of soldiers tried to board the ships. They were met by resistance. Peaceful resistance. Helicopters came and tried to download soldiers. They could not.

At that moment, they started firing live ammunition.

It was 14 ships which approached us, nearly at 4.30 in the morning. Fourteen ships that I could count and one helicopter. Maybe more than 10 soldiers, I couldn't say exactly [how many] were getting out of the helicopter.

On the second floor of the ship there were just passengers who are journalists, a nurse and organisers of the flotilla who didn't have anything in their hands.

After 20 minutes, maybe 15 minutes, there were three dead bodies.

*edit

I've been going on for a few pages asking you to comment on this. Maybe you missed it each time.

 

[JihadJane]

It's the same situation. Google 'cops kill man wielding knife', there are plenty of stories of law enforcement putting down people wielding knives and ignoring commands. That mentality carries over to soldiers, as well, especially in a situation like the Mavi Marmara, except this time there were actual stabbings.

The commandos might have thought of themselves as cops but they were, in fact, closer to pirates and they were behaved, predictably, like pre-programmed anti-terrorist robots. That's the problem. Why send a hardened anti-terrorist death squad onto a boatful of unarmed protestors (i.e no "hot weapons")?

Where was Mr Plionis found after he had been killed? What was he doing before he was shot? What was going on around him?

I don't know. Perhaps he had a camera in his hand so they hand to shoot him in the head in case it was a bomb.

Doesn't this contradict your claim that they were silenced?

How?

It's logical they would do something if they could and had an opportunity.

So why are they being portrayed as an irrationally violent mob rather than people acting in perfectly rational self defense?

 

[a_unique_person]

This is about Gaza.

It's about peace.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/streng...an-fiction-israel-s-bunker-mentality-1.293767

When asked what could turn around Israel’s leadership I am at a loss for an answer, because Israel doesn’t even listen to critics from the inside. Some reacted to the Flotilla debacle emotionally. David Grossman wrote a moving piece in which he speaks of the shame he feels about Israel’s actions. He expresses his pain about how far Israel has declined.
Others wrote in a more analytical vein. Amos Oz in a judicious op-ed in the New York Times speaks of the importance of realizing the limits of force; that Israel must start understanding that there is no way to defeat Hamas by military means, and that Israel can stop the current deterioration only by moving quickly towards a peace agreement with Fatah about a Palestinians state with East Jerusalem as its capital.
But Israel’s leadership has gone into a bunker mentality. Like a city besieged in the times before telecommunications, nothing reaches its hearts and minds. To the extent they will even read Grossman, Oz, Levy and countless others, the reaction will be "all these pundits and intellectuals; what do they know about the world! We need to stick to our inner truth; we know what’s right for Israel. We don’t need the usual gibberish of intellectuals; soft-hearted, unrealistic people who don’t have a clue about how the real world works."

 

[WildCat]

Meanwhile, Palestinians try to launch attack from sea:

http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3083,00.html

I wonder how long before the useful idiots in the west frame this as "Israel masasacres peaceful Palestinian swimmers at the beach"?

 

[IDB87]

The commandos might have thought of themselves as cops but they were, in fact, closer topirates

The former British ambassador claimed this was not piracy, because they had a military commission. Do you agree/disagree?

That's the problem. Why send a hardened anti-terrorist death squad onto a boatful of unarmed protestors (i.e no "hot weapons")?

Because they are trained for maritime operations. The regular IDF soldier, or even the Israeli police, aren't.

I don't know.

Then we will wait for more information to come out.

How?

Well, at the very least, the IDF's EW did not fully silence the MM, and the flotilla, because they were broadcasting images for a full hour before he was killed.

So why are they being portrayed as an irrationally violent mob rather than people acting in perfectly rational self defense?

You asked if it wouldn't be reasonable for them to attempt to disarm/stop the Commando from continuing to fire. I said it would be logical for them to make a move if they had the opportunity. I didn't say anything about it being rational, since now you have (paraphrasing) murdering commandos watching activists throw their comrades to the lower decks.