Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[DC]

Will someone PLEASE explain to me how Iran or Hezbollah could smuggle weapons and missiles to Gaza, through Israeli territory?

This whole embargo is a **** ing joke, even without the banning of chocolate, ginger, and vinegar.

 

[Thunder]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/rssfe...ave-Al-Qaeda-link-Israel/Article1-552413.aspx

"Israel has said about 40 of the activists arrested in the attack on the Gaza-bound aid flotilla may have had links to Al-Qaeda.

According to the Israeli defence forces (IDF), a special meeting of the security cabinet late on Tuesday heard that a group of 40 people on board the Mavi Marmara ship with no identification papers belonged to Al-Qaeda.
that is some funny stuff."

I really got to hand it to Israel.

 

[DC]

According to the Israeli defence forces (IDF), a special meeting of the security cabinet late on Tuesday heard that a group of 40 people on board the Mavi Marmara ship with no identification papers belonged to Al-Qaeda.
that is some funny stuff."

when one cannot identify those guys, how can one identify their AQ links? are they looking Al-Qaedaisch?

 

[RoboTimbo]

So Israel is claiming that not only were there mercenaries on board, but they were mercenaries working for Al-Qaeda?

Mercenaries that, despite being supposedly "split into organized cells in order to combat the IDF soldiers" didn't manage to shoot a single one of them?

And not one of y'all is thinking, "gee, that sounds like it might not be 100% accurate?"


My money says that the "mercenaries" claim probably started as a speculation by a soldier that got blown out of proportion. Once things calm down and the details get sorted out, I think this will likely be discounted.

I think the Al Qaeda claim was a reach. If they were in fact without passports or identification as described, were organized and disciplined as described, were armed as described, had communications as described, and had large sums of money in their pockets, I'd say that is evidence that they are mercenaries and further it is evidence that the activists were planning for violent resistance.

Note that I initially posted in response to Kotatsu's claim that the activists had agreed to no violence beforehand. I'm not addressing who is right or wrong in the whole blockade debacle.


ETA: I see Cleon has since posted a link that they are backing off on the claim anyway.

 

[DC]

Looks like Israel is already stepping back from the "Al-Qaeda mercenaries" claim.

So I'm sure people will stop citing it as a fact now, right? ....Right?


Oh, who am I kidding.

sounds interesting

The original headline was changed from "Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found to be Al Qaeda Mercenaries" to "Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found Without Identification Papers." Commenting on the retraction, Blumenthal writes, "The more Israel’s claims about the flotilla’s terrorist links are challenged, the more they fall apart."

 

[DreadNiK]

No, I don't know what you mean. You want to see the video of people being shot, without seeing people being shot? How do you think the victims' families might feel about this? Anyway, I'm sure that whatever video does exist is similar to what we've seen in quality, and probably won't shed much further light on things.

Lots of people are complaining the Israelis confiscated all video recordings from the boat. The best way I can see to counter this complaint that leads them to claim all sorts of things that would, of course, be borne out by the videos if only they weren't stolen by evil war criminals.

I want to see the best available evidence as to what happened on that boat. I have a desire to not see video footage of people being shot. I'd settle for someone I trust watching the evidence for me and recounting it, but that would be somewhat cowardly. Also, if as you say it is of a quality that doesn't tell us anything (which I would disagree with in regarding to what we have already, and speculating about the quality and informational value of video you haven't seen is curious) then the violence will not exactly be detailed and graphic, if that is any consolation. I've no idea how you get around the problem of the victims families' feelings without leaving things open to accusations of biased accounts (that would come from ANY editing of the footage)

If it exists...

 

[DC]

ETA: I see Cleon has since posted a link that they are backing off on the claim anyway.

yes seems like the IDF is now also ignoring your evidence like i did.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Little bit disingenuous imo - the IDF confiscated all the video footage on the boats?

Would you at least agree it would be good if Israel immediately released, unedited, all footage from and relating to the boat and the incident? (I can see good arguments as to why they might not want to do this, but to me they don't outweigh the good a full disclosure policy would be for their political situation)

There were confirmed reports of activsts handing off SD cards of recorded images/video and I don't know if that was all confiscated. There were live feeds as well from Turkish (and maybe others) camera crew that don't confirm many of their far-fetched claims.

I hope to see the IDF release more footage upon further scrutiny. I think at the moment the IDF is combing through the footage to get a better idea on the identities of these activists and what their backgrounds are before releasing it to the public. To release this raw footage immediately could prove detrimental to their investigation by displaying possibly vital intelligence before knowing what they are looking at and possibly give a heads up to those in the footage that their identities could be compromised, for both activists and IDF soldiers (since usually their identities are blotted out in public broadcasts to begin with).

 

[DreadNiK]

Looks like Israel is already stepping back from the "Al-Qaeda mercenaries" claim.

So I'm sure people will stop citing it as a fact now, right? ....Right?


Oh, who am I kidding.

When will freegaza.org retract its press release that says IDF soldiers fired into sleeping civilians immediately upon boarding?

When will witnessgaza.com retract its obscene cartoon lie it is using as a website banner?

I am always somewhat wary of the claim that Israel is held to a double-standard rather than just getting an unbalanced amount of attention on its standards, but...

 

[bigjelmapro]

when one cannot identify those guys, how can one identify their AQ links? are they looking Al-Qaedaisch?

Possibly by their origins or previous places of residence? I think its a bit too early to speculate.

 

[Cleon]

When will freegaza.org...

Perhaps the point is to wait and see what the facts are, rather than immediately assuming that every claim made by the side you happen to support is the incontrovertible truth.

 

[DC]

Possibly by their origins or previous places of residence? I think its a bit too early to speculate.

yes it was to early for the IDF to speculate. But atleast they retracted it, Kudos to them for this.

 

[DreadNiK]

There were confirmed reports of activsts handing off SD cards of recorded images/video and I don't know if that was all confiscated. There were live feeds as well from Turkish (and maybe others) camera crew that don't confirm many of their far-fetched claims.

I hope to see the IDF release more footage upon further scrutiny. I think at the moment the IDF is combing through the footage to get a better idea on the identities of these activists and what their backgrounds are before releasing it to the public. To release this raw footage immediately could prove detrimental to their investigation by displaying possibly vital intelligence before knowing what they are looking at and possibly give a heads up to those in the footage that their identities could be compromised, for both activists and IDF soldiers (since usually their identities are blotted out in public broadcasts to begin with).

yeah, as I've said, I can see plenty of reasons why not, including not wanting to provide documentary evidence of their special ops tactics to the world (a military not political concern I hasten to add), I just think it might do more good than harm to release it all, at once, because none of those outraged will listen to 'Zionist excuses that give them time to edit the footage in their favour'. Just like they edited the footage we do see so we didn't realise the activists were actually just asleep and having night terrors, sleepwalking and sleepbludgeoning....

 

[Thunder]

I am always somewhat wary of the claim that Israel is held to a double-standard rather than just getting an unbalanced amount of attention on its standards, but...

Yes, Israel is held to a double-standard. An in exchange for this double-standard, they get free-trade agreemants with the USA and the EU, security guaruntees from the USA along with yearly billions in civilian and military aid, and special no-visa travel regulations.

See? Israel's double-standard has its positives and its negatives.

Like all other western-democracies, Israel is indeed held to a higher standard than third world regimes, secular dictatorships, and Muslim theocracies. Would you have it any other way?

 

[DreadNiK]

Perhaps the point is to wait and see what the facts are, rather than immediately assuming that every claim made by the side you happen to support is the incontrovertible truth.

Evasion noted.

So when Israel makes a claim, then retracts it since it cannot support it, this is evidence for Israel lying, but when a so called 'humanitarian aid organisation' makes a claim that not only is directly contradicted by video evidence, regardless of how you wish to believe it was editing (see above re: sleep-bludgeoning) it never has to retract that claim and this is not evidence of them engaging in pretty unpleasant propaganda and lies? At what point do they have to provide evidence for accusing soldiers of obscene war crimes or publicly retract their accusations? And again why are they held to a different standard, why are you more concerned with Israel's retraction of a drastic claim than than the other side's failure to support or retract equally if not more drastic claims?

These aren't rhetorical questions, please answer them instead of just throwing a strawman at me ('immediately assuming...)

 

[JediKnight2.01]

Like all other western-democracies, Israel is indeed held to a higher standard than third world regimes, secular dictatorships, and Muslim theocracies. Would you have it any other way?

I would.

I think all people and all nations should be held to the same standards.

What benefit do you see in treating people and nations differently?

 

[bigjelmapro]

Two objective account of the whole debacle from Australian journalist Paul McGeough:

Suddenly, sound bombs and tear gas exploded

In their wake

Details of the scuffle are a lot more nuances than some video footage suggests, yes commando's were attacked, but at the same time other activists tried to protect them from attack. Well worth the read.

Still would be interested to know where this 'objective' journalist was situated, as I have asked in the past, or was relying on 3rd party information, which would be contradictory to the 'objective' claim.

Especially pertaining to this statement:

On hearing the helicopters, activists on the upper decks rushed to the top level of the ship - grabbing the commandos even before they landed, disarming them; beating them till, according to some who were present, their leaders demanded that the Israeli's not be harmed; but in one case, one of the Israelis was hurled from one deck to the ship to the next.
...
Matthias Gardel, a leader of the Swedish Palestinian support group, confirmed that the soldiers had been beaten, but insisted that those involved were unarmed and that in keeping with the ship's non-violent charter, the soldiers' weapons were thrown overboard.

Missing is that those commandos disarmed were shot by their own weapons, the strangeness of finding bullet casings of ammunition not used by the IDF even when stating that the activists had no guns on them, the multiple stabbings of a number of IDF soldiers, and according to the excerpt above, when these leaders apparently told them to stop beating/stabbing/shooting the IDF and the video where it clearly shows that the IDF units that landed on the deck were immediately beaten and stabbed by activists already armed.

And what's with: "They hunted like hyenas...". Bit over the top isn't it? He's not writing a novel....

So again, objectivity when relying on other people's testimony? Would be very doubtful if this was true. And location of this journalist, since I truely doubt he was on the top deck when the IDF boarded.

 

[Skeptic]

I would.

I think all people and all nations should be held to the same standards.

What benefit do you see in treating people and nations differently?

Because, as you well know, Arabs are not fully human -- no point expecting civilized behavior from them.

But apart from that, it isn't treating Israel like other nations. No nation, western or otherwise, would allow a blockade to be run like that; no nation, western or otherwise, would have its soldiers lynched without fighting back just so it will look good on TV. No nation, western or otherwise, would allow unsupervised provision of good to territory held by an entity sworn to destroy it by blood and fire.

Only Israel is not allowed to do these things.

That is -- as I said -- because those who are going berserk do not actually believe Israel has a right to exist. They think it's nothing but a colonialist enterprise on stole Palestinian land which might be temporarily allowed to defend itself as long as it does so in the weakest possible way, since its citizens must daily feel the shame and fear of their illegitimate existence.

It is not surprising, when this is your view of Israel, that you think it is not allowed to do anything but roll over and die.

 

[Thunder]

I would.

I think all people and all nations should be held to the same standards.

so, should we expect the same from every country as we do the USA...or Botswana?

Canada....or Nigeria?

 

[Cleon]

Evasion noted.

No evasion made.

So when Israel makes a claim, then retracts it since it cannot support it, this is evidence for Israel lying,

I didn't say it was evidence for Israel lying. This is what I said:

My money says that the "mercenaries" claim probably started as a speculation by a soldier that got blown out of proportion. Once things calm down and the details get sorted out, I think this will likely be discounted.

That's not lying, it's just what happens in the aftermath of chaotic situations where emotions are running high. In the days after 9/11, all sorts of reports were coming out; claims of truck bombs and explosions before the planes hit, for example. As time went on, these reports turned out to be incorrect - but not before they went on news reports and blogs, and to this day Twoofers cling to them like a priest to altar boys.

No, I didn't say the "Al-Qaeda mercenaries" story was a lie; I said wait and see what the facts bear out. You know, be skeptical.