Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[Stout]

And yet whenever a leftist is critical of the Israeli state's policies, he is called an anti-semite. It has been alluded to several times in this very thread. I am perfectly aware of the fact that these condemnations of various Israeli atrocities are only very rarely based on an innate hatred of Jews as such, but that does not stop the condroids from claiming that is the principal basis of these condemnations.

.

Sadly, this is true and it happens quite often in the MSM as well. IMO, it's a first line of defense and as these discussions go on, it's usually whacked down as being a red herring.

I have read plenty of such material. I've even taken a course in it at the local university (1).

Excellent, so you know I'm not making this stuff up and spewing conservative talking points for rhetorical reasons.

I believe that if person X decides to kill someone, then person X alone is responsible for that decision <snip>

Do you also believe that someone's actions can put them in harms way, or a position to be "victimized" / Say, for instance I got pulled over for speeding and exited my car brandishing a baseball bat threatening the cop. He draws his gun and gives me a warning, I refuse to comply and he shoots me. Wouldn't I be complicit in getting myself shot ?

Thus, I disagree that all Muslims should be judged by the actions of the few, just as I'd disagree that all Israeli should be judged by the actions of the few, even if "the few", as some would point out, is their democratically elected government, and thus, in theory at least, representative of the will of the people.

Cheers

...... that all members of HAMAS are dedicated to the destruction of Israel -- is not necessarily true

I can't agree with that. HAMAS's charter calls for the destruction of Israel and I fail to see why someone who does not subscribe to that idea would even consider joining HAMAS. Typically the left tries to downplay that article, dismissing it with comments like,"it's old, from the 1980s" or "they don't really mean it" which i take with a grain of salt because if HAMAS didn't mean it, it would be a simple matter to amend their charter and remove that article.

IMO, if Palestine is serious about statehood, they need a fresh new political angle including ceasing all hostilities against Israel and giving up the right of return. Yes, they loose their "traditional" lands but they would gain quality of life.

This is the direction the left should steer, helping the Palestinians rather than playing blockade running games and encouraging them in their "struggle" against an "enemy" that they can't win against.

 

[Skeptic]

You think all sorts of silly things. But tell me, what exactly do I need to explain, beyond your pathetic attempt at a guilt-by-association fallacy?

Both of you are the "top friends" -- meaning the most active in that group. Our of 500+ friends, being in the top 17, is reaching the top 3% or so.

So while you're certainly not necessarily close friends with Mr. Galloway -- that was only given as evidence of the kind of folks who join your oh-so-different, not-at-all-extremist pro-Palestine activist group -- it seems odd that, despite being one of the most active members of that group, you managed to miss the fact another of the most active members is a Hamas supporter.

Now that you tell me the web page is outdated, I am humbled. I'm sure your new set of friends is infinitely more moderate and reasonable than the Hamas-supporting set, way back in the dark ages of 2008.

 

[Thunder]

There is only one thing that I like about Hamas, and that is that they have the guts to stand up to Israel. They will lose any conventional war, but they still have the balls to fight on.

You gotta respect that.

 

[Cleon]

Both of you are the "top friends" -- meaning the most active in that group.

No, it doesn't mean any such thing. I don't know exactly what MySpace's algorithm for that is, but I'm 100% sure that ain't it.

 

[DC]

Both of you are the "top friends" -- meaning the most active in that group. Our of 500+ friends, being in the top 17, is reaching the top 3% or so.

I congratulate you and Mr. Muslim Forever for the achievements.

Somehow, despite being one of the most active members of that group, you managed to miss the fact another of the most active members is a Hamas supporter.

Now that you tell me the web page is outdated, I am humbled.

I'm sure your new set of friends, however, is infinitely more moderate and reasonable than the Hamas-supporting set, way back in the dark ages of 2008.

do you climb to top friends only when active for that particular group you pointed out?

 

[carlitos]

There is only one thing that I like about Hamas, and that is that they have the guts to stand up to Israel. They will lose any conventional war, but they still have the balls to fight on.

You gotta respect that.

Yeah, it takes a lot of balls to lob missiles into Be'er Sheva. Big swinging brass balls.

ETA - you know what else takes balls? Sneaking into Jewish cemeteries and desecrating the headstones. That's real gutsy.

 

[Thunder]

ETA - you know what else takes balls? Sneaking into Jewish cemeteries and desecrating the headstones. That's real gutsy.

I guess it also takes balls, huge Matzo balls, to tear apart olive fields and torch Mosques.

 

[Skeptic]

All this, Cleon, would not be necessary if you had simply given me, for example, a web page of the group you are active in to check for myself. Your mysterious silence on this issue showed rather clearly you have something to hide.

So the best we can go by is their myspace presence after a google search. And what do we see? The same sort of useful idiots most of those other groups have. In which you have the place of honor as a "top friend". Together with Hamas supporters.

Your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding, all the evidence so far -- and your only counter-evidence is to swear I'm horribly, horribly unfair, while refusing to provide any information that can be checked -- points to your "Palestine Solidarity" group, the special one of good people, is of the same tiresome death-to-Israel folks as all the other ones.

 

[Pardalis]

Another royally outdated site, by several years.

Then how do you guys get organized, if your website is outdated?

 

[Cleon]

All this, Cleon,

All this what? Your making stuff up to reinforce your preconceived opinions?

would not be necessary if you had simply given me, for example, a web page of the group you are active in to check for myself.

Well, you said you had "extensive experience." It's not my fault you're full of crap.

Your mysterious silence on this issue showed rather clearly you have something to hide.

"Mysterious silence?" What "mysterious silence?"

Your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding, all the evidence so far

Guilt by association is a fallacy, not evidence.

-- and your only counter-evidence is to swear I'm horribly, horribly unfair,

I didn't say any such thing./

while refusing to provide any information that can be checked

I haven't refused anything.

-- points to your "Palestine Solidarity" group, the special one of good people, is of the same tiresome death-to-Israel folks as all the other ones.

As I said, this was going to be the conclusion you came to regardless of the facts involved (which you seem to have far fewer than someone with "extensive experience" would).

I'm unimpressed.

 

[Cleon]

Then how do you guys get organized, if your website is outdated?

Well, for starters, that organization hasn't existed in a number of years. (I want to say 2006 or 2007.)

Second, afaik mostly they use Facebook these days. I'm not as involved as I used to be.

 

[DC]

interesting Cleon gets associated with the few extreme friends and not with the many many others that seemed quite normal.

 

[carlitos]

I guess it also takes balls, huge Matzo balls, to tear apart olive fields and torch Mosques.

I withdraw my previous tu quoque and / or red herring, whatever it was. That wasn't helpful. Let's get back to analyzing each other's Facebook accounts er, talking about how it's ok for peace activists to beat on soldiers with pipes, um, commenting on social issues and current events, in a friendly and lively way.

 

[Cleon]

interesting Cleon gets associated with the few extreme friends and not with the many many others that seemed quite normal.

On my FB page, I'm directly connected with numerous Libertarians, born-again Christian Republicans, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, homosexuals, transsexuals, and even a couple of Israelis.

One can only imagine what "Skeptic" would make of that.

 

[Taarkin]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177134

Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

Apparently killing 10+ people just wasn't enough.

 

[quixotecoyote]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177134

Apparently killing 10+ people just wasn't enough.

Apparently attacking Israeli soldiers and getting 10+ people killed when they fight back isn't enough to deter blockade runners.

 

[DC]

Apparently attacking Israeli soldiers and getting 10+ people killed when they fight back isn't enough to deter blockade runners.

strange, isn't it? One would think violence solves problems. but somehow it causes more.

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate.

ETA: goes for both sides, self-speaking

 

[quixotecoyote]

strange, isn't it? One would think violence solves problems. but somehow it causes more.

Indeed. Of course since only one side actively instigated violence and the other side did it's best to show restraint until faced with lethal force, it's easy to guess which side you'll support.

 

[Danmotron]

Food, water, lego brick toys for children...yeah, what threatening terrorists those horrible aid workers are with their slingshots and improvised weapons. How dare they throw commandos off their boat for attacking them illegally as they drift towards an illegal naval blockade. It's almost like israel was engaged in a criminal action or something.


Israel has pretty much marched off the deep-end with this. I can't believe they're actually using 'the aid workers picked up one of the dropped commando weapons' as an excuse to save face to boot. Seriously? If crooked cops raid a ghetto and start illegally shooting people in the dead of night, someone grabbing a dropped weapon in the confusion is not an excuse for the cops to do what they've done.

Here's Finkelstein telling it like it is - i am afraid i can't link videos of things till i make 15 posts or more, so please use the video watch URL to see it for yourself: (youtube)/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8

 

[DC]

Food, water, lego brick toys for children...yeah, what threatening terrorists those horrible aid workers are with their slingshots and improvised weapons. How dare they throw commandos off their boat attacking them illegally as they drift towards an illegal naval blockade


Israel has pretty much marched off the deep-end with this. I can't believe they're actually using 'the aid workers picked up one of the dropped commando weapons' as an excuse to save face to boot.

Here's Finkelstein telling it like it is - i am afraid i can't link videos of things till i make 15 posts or more, so please use the video watch URL to see it for yourself: (youtube)/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8