Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[Safe-Keeper]

well, if you stayed off his boat, he wouldn't feel the need to defend himself with a crowbar.

if you try to a steal a car, and the owner hits you with a crowbar, you don't have the right to shoot him in the head.

Could you try to take this a little more seriously, Thunder?

 

[Thunder]

Why are Israeli forces to be denyed the same right to self defence when they conduct boarding operations during a blockade against a state they are at war with?

was the boat owned and operated by Hamas?

if it was a Hamas owned and operated boat, than Israel would have the right to board it.

and since when is Gaza a state? what currency do they use? who is their head of state? do they control their air, water, and land?

 

[Thunder]

They would have been terrorists in any case, as they were before the boarding.

translation?

bringing food and supplies to 1.5 million Arab civilians, in defiance of the Jewish State, is an act of terrorism.

 

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

well, if you stayed off his boat, he wouldn't feel the need to defend himself with a crowbar.

if you try to a steal a car, and the owner hits you with a crowbar, you don't have the right to shoot him in the head.

If I were a Police officer, searching his trunk for some reason or other ...?
Anyway - would you attack someone (a soldier) armed with a firearm with a lead pipe?
That might explain a lot.
So: what is Israel supposed to do when the next flotilla of Rachel Corries sets sail for fail?
Just let them pass?

 

[Lallante]

Here are the UN member states:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_member_states

Many of them do on a regular basis what you accuse Israel of doing, but yet you are silent about them.

No, they dont.

Every time non-nationals are killed there is HUGE global uproar.

Please point me towards other UN members who use their own standing armed forces to (illegally) kill non-national civilians in international waters (or another country for example) without any backlash.

 

[DC]

If I were a Police officer, searching his trunk for some reason or other ...?
Anyway - would you attack someone (a soldier) armed with a firearm with a lead pipe?
That might explain a lot.
So: what is Israel supposed to do when the next flotilla of Rachel Corries sets sail for fail?
Just let them pass?

yeah imagine the boats with cement, prefabricated houses, dentist equipment and wheelchairs would have passed the blockade, what a horrific thought.

 

[Pardalis]

No, they dont.

Every time non-nationals are killed there is HUGE global uproar.

Please point me towards other UN members who use their own standing armed forces to (illegally) kill non-national civilians in international waters (or another country for example) without any backlash.

So it's all about killing non-nationals? So it's OK for countries like Iran or Burma to continue slaughtering their own citizens.

 

[DC]

They're not terrorists because of that, but because they were armed supporters of a terrorist organization on a ship supplying cargo to a terrorist organization, as well as chanting terrorist slogans in favor of genocide ("Jews, remember Kuraytish, [the Jewish tribe massacred by Muhammad]!"), and so on and so forth.

My point was that it was because of their violent resistance that some were killed; had they not, they would not have been killed. They would have been terrorists in any case, as they were before the boarding.

wasn't you complaining about abuse of words? For me its not OK to call the blockade a collective punishment, but you can label terrorist whatever you want........

nice spin you got there.

 

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

yeah imagine the boats with cement, prefabricated houses, dentist equipment and wheelchairs would have passed the blockade, what a horrific thought.

That's not the point. I'm sure the stuff will pass eventually. As it would have anyway. Inspected, that is.

 

[webfusion]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177134

Israel threatens to use more force against the next flotilla.

Boy these guys are stupid. Maybe Israel is a masochistic nation.

Preventing a collapse of the blockade is something that would help keep Israel more secure.
You see, my friend, even the organizers of the flotillas are now dropping all pretense of these ships being on "humanitarian aid missions" ---- Greta Berlin is now issuing a clear statement about the MV Linda (re-christened RachelCorrie), in which she says "Free Gaza Movement's true aim is to break Israel's crippling blockade."

Look at it this way, Thunder.
The USA stops trying to intercept smuggling ships off the coast of Florida, and decides that the willy-nilly landing of anyone and everything is no longer a problem.

Gaza is not a recognized disembarkation port.
There is no Customs, Immigration or Security procedure there, and Israel is (rightly) concerned about allowing an unrestricted flow of weaponry and terrorist-reinforcements.

OK, these particular ships are not suspected of carrying such cargo and passengers.
However, once the blockade is lifted, there isn't any oversight and it becomes a free-for-all.

Personally, if I was in charge of the blockade-runners, I would charter a cargo helicopter and send it to Gaza, and challenge Israel to shoot it down. An airlift is much harder to stop than ships at sea.

 

[Kotatsu]

this team of the commando was, apparently, a team specializing in non-lethal takeover -- different teams there have different specializations.

That puts everything in an entirely different light, of course. Just imagine what might have happened if the Israeli had sent amateurs in the art of non-lethal take-over! Why, one of them might have entirely botched the whole maneuver by putting someone's eye out with a bayonet or inadvertently breaking some poor activist girl's nails. Perhaps, in their eagerness to attack the ship in their non-expert way, these hypothetical amateurs in non-lethal take-over might have pushed someone who couldn't swim overboard by mistake!

Good show of them to send some experts, who, I assume, have had expert specialist training in not killing people but taking over ships non-lethally. I am not in any way authorized to speak for all of Turkey, but if I were, I'd extend my most cordial thanks to Israel for treating the whole matter in such a professional manner. It shows that when it comes to knowing where the heart is, Israel is at the top of the chart!

Not that I expect an apology from those who were ranting why Israel sent "killing machine commandoes" instead of people trained in "non-lethal takeovers" now that it turns out that they send precisely such teams. Lying about Israel is never something to apologize about, you know.

Looking back, I agree with you that it seems ironically ludicrous to have claimed that they were killed by trained killers, when they were actually killed by trained non-killers! Isn't it astounding what that small "non-" can do for one's sense of perspective? I am glad this was all cleared up, so that there will be no more false allegations that it was trained killers, rather than trained non-killers, that killed those people.

While not having been part of that ranting crowd, I would nevertheless offer as sincere a set of apologies as circumstances could possible hope to dictate to you and your ideological allies on behalf of several of my friends, who for a variety of reasons are not members of this forum. It was wrong to bedevil the Israeli for sending in vicious killing machines to attack a civilian aid ship. These claims were clearly stepping out of line, and, again on behalf of my friends in the rant crowd, I would like to retract these statements, and will do my best to assure that they are not repeated.

I am sure the families of those killed during Israel's specialist non-lethal take-over will feel a burden lift from their hearts -- or perhaps a veil lifted from their eyes (1)? -- when they learn that their family weren't killed by killing machine commandoes, but by specialists in non-lethal take-over.

But they were attacked with guns and knives and iron bars -- standard equipment in Palestinian "peace activist"'s arsenals, we know -- so, naturally, they shot back. Had they not, they would all have been lynched. So -- as the article says -- nine "civilians" (meaning "activists" in Arabic and "terrorists" in most other languages) were killed.

Oh, man, Skeptic you are the best friend and -- dare I say it? -- mentor I've ever had! They laughed at me when I said that I was in the marines, claiming that this entirely true statement was belied by my spindly frame and pacifist ways, but now you have shown me the light: it is because they were never in the armed forces! They were born civilians = terrorists, and they will die civilians = terrorists! Of course these civilians = terrorists would mock me for my non-civilian = non-terrorist background! It all makes so much sense now. Thanks a lot, Skeptic!

---
(1) See what I did there? They are MOSLEMS in Turkey, so I thought I'd install a modicum of fun into this otherwise quite sordid discussion by substituting one set expression for having something revealed to you for another, the replacement being one which has cultural connotations for the people referred to! Oh, sometimes I slay myself.

 

[Stout]

True, but it's also an anti-Arab and anti-Muslim thing.

I'm not seeing the anti Arab anti Muslim thing in this context, if anything the protest types are anti christian because Christianity is the religion of the west. To their credit, the lefties dispense with the anti semitism arguments in much the same way we do here.

Arabs and Muslims are mere props; their death doesn't mean anything unless it can be blamed on some white villain (USA, Israel, etc.) in the self-centered activist's morality play. Arabs killing Arabs? Boooooooooooooring

I agree, after all how many freedom flotillas headed to Haiti to deliver humanitarian aid ? I know there's groups that love running the Cuban "blockade" to deliver supplies and those groups like to fly an in er ear uncle SAM banner.

It's interesting, because Cubans are also "settlers" but mentioning things like that just bring accusations of racism.

There's some subjects that are just downright taboo to the idealistic left and the ever popular right to self determination is one of those when it's applied to Israel.

 

[Stout]

deleted...webfusion beat me to it

 

[DC]

I'm not seeing the anti Arab anti Muslim thing in this context, if anything the protest types are anti christian because Christianity is the religion of the west. To their credit, the lefties dispense with the anti semitism arguments in much the same way we do here.



I agree, after all how many freedom flotillas headed to Haiti to deliver humanitarian aid ? I know there's groups that love running the Cuban "blockade" to deliver supplies and those groups like to fly an in er ear uncle SAM banner.

It's interesting, because Cubans are also "settlers" but mentioning things like that just bring accusations of racism.

There's some subjects that are just downright taboo to the idealistic left and the ever popular right to self determination is one of those when it's applied to Israel.

Haiti has a blockade on them? didn't know that

 

[Pardalis]

Some people are actually employed by political parties, NGOs, churches and so on, and can actually plan and organise these things on a work day without taking time off, as it is part of their work, you know.

Indeed the pro-Palestinian lobby is a very well oiled machine.

They can get ready to protest at a moment's notice.

 

[DC]

Indeed the pro-Palestinian lobby is a very well oiled machine.

They can get ready to protest at a moment's notice.

yes extremely, especially in contrast to the pro-Israel lobbies

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Kotatsu: Way not funny.

 

[WildCat]

So do these ships become property of Israel now?

 

[Skeptic]

Rika: what did you expect? Weak sarcasm and shouting "ISLAMOPHOBE!" is the only "defense" when shown to be totally wrong on the facts.

 

[Thunder]

So do these ships become property of Israel now?

sure. why not. its not like anyone has ever stopped Israel before.