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Anti-English discrimination in Quebec

If everyone in Quebec decided they'd prefer to speak english (and French died out in a generation or 2), not one life would be lost
No body is talking about people's lives.

I'm talking about the life of a culture. Is your brain completely unable to tell the difference?
I notice that when you quoted my post, you left out the part where I also stated something along the lines that "people's lives will be just as enriched".

I'm just pointing out the un-importance of having a unique or particular culture.

I choose english (well, my parents did when they raised me/sent me to school) because it was seen as the best alternative for interacting in the society I grew up in, and because it is the best language for my employment
And so is French in Québec.
Except for the parents who wanted to have their children schooled in English, yet were told "you can't do that". They had no choice.

Except for the businessmen who wanted to use English signs/labels and were told "you can't do that".

My parents and myself have (or had) a choice. Quebecers... not so much.
No it's not, you just said you chose English because of your parents, and your environment.
That doesn't necessarily mean I (and my parents) didn't have a choice. You don't necessarily make choices in a vacuum. I have ever right to use french or have children educated in French if I want. I just have to weigh the pros and cons of that decision. Quebecors don't necessarily have those options.

Umm.... how do you know that I find holding up Cohen as a sample of English Culture isn't as offensive as me associating Poutine with Quebec is to you?
Lightfoot and Cohen are great poets and songwriters, poutine is a fast food dish.
That's more of a personal opinion. How do you know that poutine-lovers don't get just as much pleasure out of their french fries and gravy than your average music lover gets out of Cohen?

Heck, I rather suspect there are more people who eat poutine in Quebec than there are english people who listen to Cohen.

On how natives can protect their culture
Organize clubs with like-minded people. Start a video log of people giving their experiences. Teach their kids about the old culture.
And what if the younger generations keep losing interest, if nobody around them speak the old language, and practice their old ways, why would the younger generations be interested?
Then the culture dies. Or perhaps elements merge with other cultures. But again, that's not anything significant.

Someday, a lot of native cultures will vanish. That is neither good nor bad. It will be replaced by something else (possibly something unique, possibly they will be assimilated.) Either way, their descendants will probably continue to live full, rewarding lives.
And again, nobody is talking about life or the quality of life of individuals. We're talking about culture, a particular way of seeing things.

Umm... if having a particular culture does not improve the quality (or do something to otherwise improve humanity), then what is the point of having it?

If I were a minority, and I'd be just as happy and productive using the same language/culture as the majority, then why force me into sticking with the minority?

You keep accusing me of being "thick headed", yet you seem to be the one unable/unwilling to justify why just having some unique culture/language is actually beneficial to anyone.
 
So, does that mean you are completely happy with the Canadian constitution?
Pretty much. I'm not an idealist.
Well, maybe that's my problem... I think the principle of freedom is actually important.
It is a darn good constitution.
You're entitled to hold that opinion (even if its wrong).
I like the addition of checks and balances and minority group rights. I don't want to live in a completely individualistic society.
To be honest, I really don't know how you can actually separate 'minority group rights' with 'individual' rights. After all, the both stem from the same philosophy, that the majority cannot necessarily dictate everything that goes on in society.

You don't think invoking the "notwithstanding" clause violates individual rights?
Not at all. Do you consider democracy to be a right? I do.
But then, we're not necessarily a 'democracy' (depending on your particular definition.). We're a constitutional monarchy.

If so, why should nine un-elected old white judges get to over-rule Parliament?
First of all, while it is true that judges are un-elected, they get their jobs by being appointed by an elected parliament (so there is at least an indirect democracy going there.)

Secondly, the judges don't necessarily over-rule parliament on a whim (well, in theory they shouldn't.) Instead, they decide whether one set of laws passed by the government conflicts with another set of laws passed by the government.

To be honest, I don't think most people would like to live in a country where the political leaders held supreme power.

The notwithstanding clause simply restores some semblance of parliamentary sovereignty. It is politically impossible to use (outside of Quebec at any rate) for anything other than really trivial non-controversial purposes, or for vitally important national issues that for whatever reason the courts are obstructing.

True, its unlikely to be used in most of the country. However, the fact that it exists at all should give us reasons to be worried. (How would you feel if the constitution contained a clause that said "The government reserves the right to engage in cannibalism if we get hungry"? Even if it never got used, I'd still rather it not be there.

The former uses have occurred. The latter has yet to occur, but it is important for the mechanism to exist.

Other countries seem to function well enough without having such a mechanism in their constitution. For example, I don't think the U.S. has anything similar in their constitution. Yet they've survived several hundred years as a functional democracy.

(It may have been necessary for a couple of years after the constitution was passed, in order to make sure existing laws didn't conflict with the constitution, but legislatures have had more than enough time to deal with such problems.)
 
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...the "ethnic vote" referred to Canada increasing the new citizenship a month before the referendum, knowing full well that immigrants do not know about the dispute, and do not wish to break up a country they have just entered, therefore obtaining new votes for the "No":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_independence_referendum,_1995#Citizenship_and_Immigration_Canada
Statistics compiled by Citizenship and Immigration Canada show that some 43,855 new Quebecers obtained their Canadian citizenship during 1995. About one quarter of these (11,429) were granted their citizenship during the month of October. The data also shows an increase in certificate issuances by 87% between 1993 and 1995. The year 1996 saw a drop of 39%

Ummm... first of all, isn't it a bit, well, racist to assume that "immigrants do not know about the dispute"? I'm not an immigrant, but according to the government web site, immigrants must have lived in Canada for at least 3 years prior to becoming a citizen.... it would have been more than enough time to learn about the dispute.

Secondly, if around 11,000 gained their citizenship in the month of October, that definitely is more than would normally have gained citizenship (You'd expect the number to be around 3700.). However, that's a difference of less than 8,000 votes. The 'yes' side lost by over 50,000. Even if there were no extra immigrants registered during the month, the 'yes' side would have lost by over 40,000 votes. (And that's assuming every immigrant would vote 'no'... most probably would, but there's not a guarantee they all would.)

Edited to add: Heck, even if there were absolutely no immigrants who gained citizenship in 1995, the 'yes' side still would have lost. So blaming the loss on new immigrants is false.

By the way, I notice you seem to have left the following out of the wikipedia article:
When confronted about the issue by a Bloc Québécois MP who suggested shortcuts were being taken to hurry citizenship applications for immigrants who would most likely vote "No", Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Sergio Marchi responded:
"What is being done with respect to citizenship processing in the province of Quebec leading up to the referendum is nothing different from any lead up to any provincial campaign. My department has done likewise with the provinces of Manitoba, New Brunswick and Ontario. If we compare the number of citizenship processings with the year of the Ontario election, it is up some 45 per cent."
 
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Well, maybe that's my problem... I think the principle of freedom is actually important.

Give me a break. We are free in this country. All of us.

You're entitled to hold that opinion (even if its wrong).
See above.

To be honest, I really don't know how you can actually separate 'minority group rights' with 'individual' rights. After all, the both stem from the same philosophy, that the majority cannot necessarily dictate everything that goes on in society.
And minority group rights occasionally trump the rights of the individual as well as the rights of the majority.


But then, we're not necessarily a 'democracy' (depending on your particular definition.). We're a constitutional monarchy.

That's an incomplete definition. We are also a parliamentary democracy. In fact, from 1867 to 1982, that's mostly entirely what we were, changing only in gradual stages culminating in the Constitution Act, 1982. Up till then, parliament really was supreme. We still are a parliamentary democracy, albeit in limited form.


First of all, while it is true that judges are un-elected, they get their jobs by being appointed by an elected parliament (so there is at least an indirect democracy going there.)

Secondly, the judges don't necessarily over-rule parliament on a whim (well, in theory they shouldn't.) Instead, they decide whether one set of laws passed by the government conflicts with another set of laws passed by the government.
Not quite. The Charter is not ordinary law. And it's the judiciary that is tasked with deciphering what the Charter means.

To be honest, I don't think most people would like to live in a country where the political leaders held supreme power.
Ask the UK. Ask Canadians who remember pre-1982. And that isn't the country we live in. We live in a country with a balance between the power of the judiciary and parliament, thanks to the notwithstanding clause (and section 1 of the Charter).

True, its unlikely to be used in most of the country. However, the fact that it exists at all should give us reasons to be worried. (How would you feel if the constitution contained a clause that said "The government reserves the right to engage in cannibalism if we get hungry"? Even if it never got used, I'd still rather it not be there.

Pathetic straw man.


Other countries seem to function well enough without having such a mechanism in their constitution. For example, I don't think the U.S. has anything similar in their constitution. Yet they've survived several hundred years as a functional democracy.

We aren't the USA. Nor should we strive to be. And they do have something similar - it's just informal rather than formal. American courts show deference to Congress all the time. It's better to have it clearly stated in the Constitution rather than buried in jurisprudence.

(It may have been necessary for a couple of years after the constitution was passed, in order to make sure existing laws didn't conflict with the constitution, but legislatures have had more than enough time to deal with such problems.)
It's there for when the interpretation of the court clashes irreparably with the democratic will of parliament.
 
I agree that the purpose of the discriminatory french laws is to protect the usage of the French language in Quebec. I also agree that its quite likely that French could disappear (or its usage severely curtailed) without them.

However, the big question that needs to be asked is:

So what?
Sociologists point out that having a different language helps preserve the culture of that linguistic group, especially where the group is a minority. The loss of language and culture go hand in hand, until finally the minority group is culturally assimilated.

Hey, I agree that language is an important part of cultural identity and preserving a language helps preserve a culture. But you're still left with the question:

So what?

So what's important is up to you. If your culture is important to you, for whatever reason -- shared history, shared responsibility, shared customs, ethics, symbols, language, music, art, love, pride, native attachment, self-definition, collective identity, regional familiarity, sense of who you are, where you're from, where you've been, where you're going, etc., etc., etc. -- you try to preserve it. If, however, you feel all cultures are interchangeable, one culture is as good as another, you don't.

A culture isn't "living" either. Cultures change, some merge with others, others disappear.

A culture is lived in. The common intellectual space that is inhabited. Its fate can depend on the choices of its inhabitants.

Yes, it is a good idea to preserve elements of culture for historical purposes. But I feel that its wrong to trample on people's rights in order to preserve a culture.

"Culture" as a museum exhibit. Can happen easy enough.

"Rights" are always trade-offs, individual vs collective good, and vary across societies. In Quebec, the collective right to preserve the culture by protecting the language takes precedence over individual rights to actions which are judged to threaten language and culture.

In English Canada, the collective right to preserve the culture is also asserted (by Canadian Content laws). For example, a radio station that wanted to play all-American music would not be allowed to. They are required by law to give at least thirty-five per cent of their air time over to Canadian artists. This gives Canadian artists more exposure and a better chance for a career than they would have otherwise, particularly artists whose style is endemic to and popular primarily in Canada. It enhances our collective culture and identity, at the expense of the individual radio station manager's right to play whatever s/he wants to.

In any society, rights strike a consensus balance between the individual and group. French and English Canada are no exception.

...it can also easily be seen as part of our common heritage, another strategy in our common struggle to preserve our heritage, keep Canadian cultures distinctive, to ensure that simple demographics won't warp, swamp or silence our less numerous, more murmurous, and always complex voice, eh? :) (n'est-ce pas?)
Just wondering... is human society really better off being fractured into hundreds if not thousands of cultures? Yeah, its nice to be "unique", but its also nice to converse with other people in the world, to understand their point of view without language or culture barriers getting in the way.

Fracturing "into hundreds if not thousands of cultures"? What country is this? Canada is officially built on two founding linguistic groups (unfair to Natives but they didn't have much say at the time), which reflects our historical reality, and federal and provincial laws combine to privilege and preserve the cultures of those two groups. I'm not sure where the fracturing into hundreds and thousands comes in. There are good things about homogeneity, and good things about diversity. A good balance, which is what Canada strives for and perhaps even occasionally achieves, is probably best. For nothing but diversity is the Tower of Babel; nothing but homogeneity, Euro-Disneyland. Thankfully, Canada is far from both, and has no aspirations to become either.


By all means, keep speaking french. Drink your Labatts 50. Eat your poutine. Cheer for the Canadiens. You certainly have the right to do so.

That was a pretty disappointing nosedive in the conversation there, hosehead.

Actually, I've got a rather extensive collection of movies... nearing 400 at this point. Granted a lot of them are American-style blockbusters, but I also make it a point to purchase Canadian movies. Also have a lot of Canadian CDs in my music collection.

And guess what? I have those Canadian movies/CDs because they bring me enjoyment, not because the government has stepped in and said "You must have X number of Canadian movies in your collection in order to protect Canadian culture".

The irony being that some might not have been made if the government didn't mandate Canadian Content.
 
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Parizeau's first wife was a Polish Jew, BTW. He's an old disgruntled fart, but not necessarily a racist. He could have put it more gently, but the "money" referred to Option Canada's illegal financing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Option_Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponsorship_Scandal

and the "ethnic vote" referred to Canada increasing the new citizenship a month before the referendum, knowing full well that immigrants do not know about the dispute, and do not wish to break up a country they have just entered, therefore obtaining new votes for the "No":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_independence_referendum,_1995#Citizenship_and_Immigration_Canada

Of course Canadian712 was three at the time, so he wouldn't know about that, only what his parents told him.

Blaming an ethnic group for a campaign is outright racism, you can spin it however you like, that's what it is. When you begin to categorize people as "nous" and "les autres" , it is blatant racism in my view.

I love how separatists blame their entire loss on OP(which did spend illegal money), when the PQ government shredded a great number of NO votes for invalid reasons
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...r-know-the-truth-about-quebec-referendum.aspx

Here are the referendum results
http://www.electionsquebec.qc.ca/francais/tableaux/referendums-quebec-8484.php

-In 1995, the "NO": not 50% + 1, but 50% + "54,288" not counting 86,000 maliciously spoiled ballots.

Separatists cheated in the referendum and STILL lost. Good riddance.
 
I notice that when you quoted my post, you left out the part where I also stated something along the lines that "people's lives will be just as enriched".

I'm just pointing out the un-importance of having a unique or particular culture.

Then as I said to begin with, you do not understand, so it's pointless talking to you about the importance of one's culture.

You don't get it, never will.

Except for the parents who wanted to have their children schooled in English, yet were told "you can't do that". They had no choice.
People in Germany have to send their children to German school. People in Japan have to send their children to Japanese school. They don't have much of a choice either.

Except for the businessmen who wanted to use English signs/labels and were told "you can't do that".
They can.

That's more of a personal opinion. How do you know that poutine-lovers don't get just as much pleasure out of their french fries and gravy than your average music lover gets out of Cohen?
And here you are again blatantly disrespecting my culture. If you equate fast food to culture, this means you probably don't have any culture yourself.

Do you know anything about Québec culture? Jean-Pierre Ferland, Daniel Bélanger, Michel Tremblay, Pauline Julien? Any of those names ring a bell?

You are demeaning to my culture on purpose. Your bigotry is more than obvious.

Then the culture dies.
And this is unacceptable for us. You don't get it. Your brain seems to think on one basic level, art and culture is completely alien to you.

You remind me of someone standing in front of Guernica and asking "So what?". There's really nothing anyone can say to help you understand.

Umm... if having a particular culture does not improve the quality (or do something to otherwise improve humanity), then what is the point of having it?
Then you don't get it.

If I were a minority, and I'd be just as happy and productive using the same language/culture as the majority, then why force me into sticking with the minority?
OK, so learn French when you're in Québec. Send your kids to French school. English is the minority here, and French is the majority. You just answered your own question.

Problem solved.

You keep accusing me of being "thick headed", yet you seem to be the one unable/unwilling to justify why just having some unique culture/language is actually beneficial to anyone.
That's because you don't get it.

Culture is obviously not important to you. So be it. It is important for alot of us, it makes us who we are, and we won't let it die.
 
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Ummm... first of all, isn't it a bit, well, racist to assume that "immigrants do not know about the dispute"? I'm not an immigrant, but according to the government web site, immigrants must have lived in Canada for at least 3 years prior to becoming a citizen.... it would have been more than enough time to learn about the dispute.

And as I said to D'rok, I disagree with him (Parizeau). It may have stolen a few votes for us, but I agree in general alot more French Québecois voted "no" so blaming it on the newcomers was wrong and divisive. I just wanted to point out what he was referring to when he said it.

He is ethnocentric and bitter, but not a racist.
 
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Blaming an ethnic group for a campaign is outright racism, you can spin it however you like, that's what it is. When you begin to categorize people as "nous" and "les autres" , it is blatant racism in my view.


Then by your own definition you are a racist, and have been since your first post.
 
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Then by your own definition you are a racist, and have been since your first post.

Nope, because I blamed Quebec policies for Anglos' problems, not the general Francophone population. Blaming certain individuals is different than blaming an entire ethnic group.


Then why did Staples have to change its name to "Bureau en Gros"? Why did Esso's "On the Go" have to change its name to "Marche Express"? Why did KFC have to change its name to "PFK"?

People in Germany have to send their children to German school. People in Japan have to send their children to Japanese school. They don't have much of a choice either.

Firstly, Quebec is not a country. Secondly, those said countries do not have laws restricting education in other languages to "protect its culture". Thirdly, those places are not part of a country that states citizens have a right to their children's language of education. So that analogy is just off.

And this is unacceptable for us. You don't get it. Your brain seems to think on one basic level, art and culture is completely alien to you.

Then what do you think the Natives have to say? They're culture has been technically wiped out. And also, there are more efficient ways to promote a culture than forcing it upon people.
 
Nope, because I blamed Quebec policies for Anglos' problems,

Again, it's your version of "us" versus "them". You're on a Crusade of one against the entire Québec government, and Québec's history.

You said most Québec politicians are "known racists". You're blaming both the PQ and the PLQ, which put together is pretty much all of the electorate. And I'm sure you dislike just as much the ADQ and Québec Solidaire...

You resent being a minority. Welcome to my world.

So young, and already so bitter and frustrated. You're up to a good start. You're like the English version of Parizeau.

Then why did Staples have to change its name to "Bureau en Gros"? Why did Esso's "On the Go" have to change its name to "Marche Express"? Why did KFC have to change its name to "PFK"?
They still do business don't they? You're making alot of fuss about nothing.

If I were to set up a French-only shop in BC or Alberta, would it get business? I don't think so.

Firstly, Quebec is not a country.
Not yet.

Secondly, those said countries do not have laws restricting education in other languages to "protect its culture". Thirdly, those places are not part of a country that states citizens have a right to their children's language of education. So that analogy is just off.
The people still have to learn the language of the majority, it's common sense.

Then what do you think the Natives have to say? They're culture has been technically wiped out.
You think that's a good thing?

I don't understand the meaning of your question. They have as much right to protect their culture as anyone. In their case it's even more urgent.

And also, there are more efficient ways to promote a culture than forcing it upon people.
But we need to speak French in our daily lives in order for French to survive, the selective pressure around us is too great. Look at the state of French in Louisianna, or PEI, their French is almost unintelligible. To speak French at home is not enough, we need to live in French.

French is a fact of life in Québec, live with it, just as I would have to live with English being a fact of life in Alberta.
 
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"Again, it's your version of "us" versus "them". You're on a Crusade of one against the entire Québec government, and Québec's history."
No, just the government. Separatists usually warp its history for their own agendas.


"You resent being a minority. Welcome to my world."
What the heck you talking about? Francophones control all aspect of Quebec politics and they get a pretty good representation in Ottawa, which is quite extraordinary considering French Canadians only make up 4% of the entire population. Not that it's a bad thing, but just saying....


"So young, and already so bitter and frustrated. You're up to a good start. You're like the English version of Parizeau."
Damn right I'm frustrated. When the government starts dictating which schools I have to go to(despite the fact that I have a constitutional right to choose the language of instruction), damn right I get frustrated. Francophones also share this frustration.

And before you give me the "in Germany you have to go German school etcc....", let me just remind you that Germany or any other countries you cited, are not provinces of a country that state all individuals have the right to choose the language of instruction they wish to be educated in.


"The people still have to learn the language of the majority, it's common sense."
It's a matter of individual rights, not learning the language.

"But we need to speak French in our daily lives in order for French to survive, the selective pressure around us is too great. Look at the state of French in Louisianna, or PEI, their French is almost unintelligible. To speak French at home is not enough, we need to live in French."
You can't force people what to speak or to live for that matter. There's a reason that Quebec's language laws have come under attack by the UN. What you have to understand is that these laws drive people away and makes Quebec a much less interesting place for immigrants to visit/live. Quebec's assimilation efforts are clearly failing, with only 60% of immigrants adopting to French(80% is required to maintain the status quo). You don't see the English provinces imposing laws on the Francophones outside Quebec to protect the English culture.


"Not yet."
And will not be for a very long time according to recent polls.

"I don't understand the meaning of your question. They have as much right to protect their culture as anyone. In their case it's even more urgent."

My point was that French Quebecers are paranoid about their language and culture disappearing when in fact, it isn't. The Natives are the ones who should really be worried, not the Francos. After all, Canada was originally their land.
 
It's also not an emersion type education. In English Canada, French is taught but it's a single class if I'm not mistaken.
In English Canada fully French speaking schools that are open to anyone are commonplace.

Did you know prior to Bill 101, English was the language of business and government?

English is the language of business globally and to a large degree the language of government globally. Trying to force business not to use it is a recipe for economic failure.
 
The “preserving culture” argument is weak. First of all this is not something you can enforce, if you have to try and make someone follow a particular set of cultural ideals you have already lost.

Second, culture changes with every generation anyway. Does anyone here seriously think their current culture is the same as their grandparents at the same age?
 
"You resent being a minority. Welcome to my world."
What the heck you talking about? Francophones control all aspect of Quebec politics and they get a pretty good representation in Ottawa, which is quite extraordinary considering French Canadians only make up 4% of the entire population. Not that it's a bad thing, but just saying....

4%?!? Care to show your work? 22.7% of the entire population are French Canadians (identify French as their mother tongue) according to the most recent census figures I have (see: French language in CanadaWP).

"So young, and already so bitter and frustrated. You're up to a good start. You're like the English version of Parizeau."
Damn right I'm frustrated. When the government starts dictating which schools I have to go to(despite the fact that I have a constitutional right to choose the language of instruction), damn right I get frustrated. Francophones also share this frustration.

The Supreme Court of Canada in 2005 ruled that section 73 of the Charter of the French Language, pertaining to language of instruction in Quebec, is constitutional.

The “preserving culture” argument is weak. First of all this is not something you can enforce, if you have to try and make someone follow a particular set of cultural ideals you have already lost.

Second, culture changes with every generation anyway. Does anyone here seriously think their current culture is the same as their grandparents at the same age?

Does anyone here seriously think the goal of French language laws [or Canadian Content, for that matter] is to preserve culture exactly as it is? I hope not. It's about influencing the direction a culture takes as it evolves; preserving a difference, an identity, not preserving a time-period.
 
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The “preserving culture” argument is weak. First of all this is not something you can enforce, if you have to try and make someone follow a particular set of cultural ideals you have already lost.

Second, culture changes with every generation anyway. Does anyone here seriously think their current culture is the same as their grandparents at the same age?
As far as I can tell this is about preserving language, not culture.

I doubt that many Quebecois are still trapping beaver and other game... which was pretty much their original culture.
 
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My first language is Gaelic; our heartland areas have had their linguistic base completely decimated by 30 years of heavy immigration from the remainder of the country and indeed further south. The predominant language of the playground, of the pub, of the office, and the shops has all moved to English since I was a child. Our culture has taken a kicking from which it may well never recover.

If you want to live in a francophone province/state/nation, then learn French. It's not as if it's a difficult language, for heaven's sake.
 
My first language is Gaelic; our heartland areas have had their linguistic base completely decimated by 30 years of heavy immigration from the remainder of the country and indeed further south. The predominant language of the playground, of the pub, of the office, and the shops has all moved to English since I was a child. Our culture has taken a kicking from which it may well never recover.
Nitpick: you can't immigrate from the same country, you can only migrate.

And what makes you think your culture is or should be stuck in some time period? Culture is continually adapting and changing. And there's far more to it than a language.
 

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