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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Thank you for the citations. I'm not sure it is accurate to say Guede's lawyers sued The Seattle Times. I haven't been able to open the first link because there is a problem with the security certifcate, but the title of its article seems to be, "Kercher suspect's lawyer may sue." The second article quotes Biscotti as saying, "We have already initiated contacts with U.S. firm to file a complaint against the newspaper that published the article..."

Maybe the threat of the lawsuit was enough to get media outlets to change their ways, but so far I don't see any evidence of Guede's lawyers actually "filing suit in Italy for alander against the Seattle Times," as you wrote in Post #14454.

I took a look at the first link, and I can confirm that it merely says that Rudy's lawyers were "considering legal action".

It does not confirm the claim that Guede's lawyers filed suit in Italy for slander against the Seattle Times.

This does not prove they did not do so, of course. It merely demonstrates that the links Fulcanelli provided claiming they supported his claim, did not in fact support it. I am not surprised by this development.
 
Yes, I was attempting to assign odds to the most discussed probabilities.

1. Both results on the knife and bra-clasp are legit.
2. Both results are fabricated.
3. One result is contamination/transfer and the other legit.
4. Both results are some type of contamination/transfer of DNA.

As you have indicated you also feel that the chances are pretty low on number 4. The knife just happens to get contaminated with Meredith's DNA, proving Amanda's involvement and the other just happens to be contaminated with Raffaele's DNA proving his involvement. I am currently inclined to give the odds of number 4 only a 1 in 25 chance and I have had that as low as 1 in 100.

If you watch the crime scene videos it becomes very clear that the crime scene was completely mishandled by investigators. There is no doubt that contamination occurred.

The clasp should have been collected at the same time as the bra. This has been gone over many times. Why was DNA found on the clasp that was not also found on the bra itself? We will never know this because the evidence was not collected properly.

There are many aspects of this case that you could play the odds game with.

What are the odds of Raffaele suggesting to Amanda that she carry a large bulky kitchen knife in her purse for protection when he had other knives in his possession that were much more suited for the task?

What are the odds of a young couple in love that are alone together hearing an attack in progress and becoming aroused by the attack? So aroused that they join in?

What are the odds of 3 people attacking and murdering a young woman in a violent struggle in a small room and only one of the attackers leaves evidence in the room?

This was not a complicated murder. It was a horrible murder but not a complicated one. The prosecution complicated it when they refused to admit their mistakes early on.
 
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I took a look at the first link, and I can confirm that it merely says that Rudy's lawyers were "considering legal action".

It does not confirm the claim that Guede's lawyers filed suit in Italy for slander against the Seattle Times.

This does not prove they did not do so, of course. It merely demonstrates that the links Fulcanelli provided claiming they supported his claim, did not in fact support it. I am not surprised by this development.


No kidding.
 
What answer are you fishing for...that Curatolo's rubbish because he sleeps on a bench?


Personally, I would not want to go to prison on account of what someone who had been sleeping on a bench in th emiddle of a city for 8 or 9 years said about me.

"...most studies indicate a considerable burden of cognitive dysfunction among homeless people. Such dysfunction might be expected to impact upon their ability to reintegrate into society, thereby undermining policies of inclusiveness. In clinical practice, assessment of homeless adults should include their cognitive state."

http://jrsm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/full/97/8/375

"Homeless people are significantly more likely to have an intellectual disability than the general population."

http://jid.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/12/4/325.pdf

"Cognitive impairments can increase significantly a person’s level of risk for becoming or remaining homeless."

http://intraspec.ca/JPP2007_28_375-388_Backer&Howard.pdf

And there's a whole lot more where that came from.
 
This was not a complicated murder. It was a horrible murder but not a complicated one. The prosecution complicated it when they refused to admit their mistakes early on.

Could it be that this case isn't as simple as you think it is?
 
This post is for Stilicho. He made comments about this list that was compiled to try and discredit my website. I had some time so I broke down the list. This is an extremely weak attempt to discredit me. I am actually surprised that a list this weak would even be posted.

From The Machine (Harry Rag) Here are some Bruce Fisher's factual inaccuracies:

1. "Mignini sold this ridiculous story to a jury and they bought it."

Bruce: If I remember correctly, Amanda and Raffaele were convicted. This is a true statement.

2. Mignini already had a history of dreaming up "satanic ritualistic murder fantasies".

Bruce: This is a true statement. Read The Monster of Florence.

3. Mignini already had a "past history of corruption".

Bruce: This is a true statement. Read The Monster of Florence.

4. "The interrogation of Amanda Knox was illegal."

Bruce: The Italian supreme court ruled that portions of Amanda's interrogation were illegal because she did not have an attorney present. Italy may not use the term "Illegal" as we do in the US.

5. Amanda Knox was questioned for 14 hours.

Bruce: Amanda was questioned for many hours in the days leading up to her arrest. This statement is not on the site however.

6. "Suffering from extreme exhaustion with no food nor water, after a long and grueling interrogation, twenty year old college student Amanda Knox gave in to the interrogators demands by describing an imaginary dream or vision."

Bruce: This is a true statement. Amanda stated that she described a vision.

7. "Amanda consistently told the same story over and over again. She repeatedly told the truth."

Bruce: This is a true statement. Amanda repeatedly told the police the same story leading up to the 5th.

8. "Physical force was also used on Amanda and she was lied to intentionally to make her believe the police had evidence against her."

Bruce: This is a true statement. Amanda was hit. I know we disagree. I believe Amanda.

9. "One technique is to ask the suspect to imagine hypothetical scenarios. The interrogators feed the information that they want the suspect to imagine. Over long a long drawn out interrogation, the suspect gets confused and starts trying to comply with the request being made to imagine the scenarios. This is exactly what they did to Amanda Knox."

Bruce: This is a true statement. This is a very common interrogation tactic.

10. "It's possible the investigators were also targeting Lumumba because of the African hair that may have been found at the scene. Lumumba, of course, was African."

Bruce: This was taken out of context. The Machine (Harry Rag) likes to do this. PMF applauds him for it. Here is what the site says:

It was reported that Investigators found hair at the crime seen believed to belong to an African male. This was mentioned in early reporting but was never mentioned at trial. As it turns out, the hair could have belonged to Meredith.
It's possible the investigators were also targeting Lumumba because of the African hair that may have been found at the scene. Lumumba, of course, was African.


11. "The finger prints pointed to a known criminal. This criminal was an African male named Rudy Guede."

Bruce: This is a true statement. Rudy Guede was then and still is a criminal and he is African.

12. “A sample was taken from the knife blade and was tested for blood. The result was negative. There was no blood on the knife.”

Bruce: This is a true statement. The knife tested negative for blood.

13. "There was no DNA on the blade."

Bruce: This sentence was pulled out of a paragraph discussing the testing done on the knife before the low copy DNA testing was done. PMF should be embarrased to be using these tactics to try and discredit me. Here is what I actually said:

Italian forensic police expert Patrizia Stefanoni performed the DNA testing on the knife. When the knife was tested, Amanda's DNA was found on the handle. This was expected because Amanda often prepared meals at Raffaele's apartment. She used the knife for cooking.

A sample was taken from the knife blade and was tested for blood. The result was negative. There was no blood on the knife. This needs to be repeated,

THERE WAS NO BLOOD ON THE KNIFE.

What was left of the sample from the blade was tested for DNA.. The results were negative.There was no DNA on the blade.


14. "The DNA found on the knife came from the lab."

Bruce: This is my opinion. Here is another sentence that The Machine (Harry Rag) plucked out of a paragraph. This is a really poor attempt to discredit a website.

15. "No other knives were taken from Raffaele's apartment."

Bruce: No other knives were taken from the kitchen. There was one more knife in the drawer. Neither of the knives looked like murder weapons so why not test them both? I looked at the video repeatedly and it is impossible to tell if the second knife had a tip or if it was rounded. It doesn't matter anyway. Other items should have been tested from that drawer as a control.

16. "The outside shutters were open."

Bruce: The Machine (Harry Rag) likes to pull sentences out of paragraphs. Why not post the entire paragraph? Anyway, The shutters did not close properly and Filomena did not rmemebr if she had closed them. Either way, it would have taken Guede seconds to hop up and open the shutters and than jump back down to the ground and throw the rock.

17. "They never photographed any glass on top of the clothes."

Bruce: I have not seen any photographs of glass on top of the clothes. This is not an important statement because the clothes were on the floor before the window was broken. The clothes were not there from a staged break in. They were there because Filomena left them there. Filomena's room was not clean. She left clothes on the floor.

18. "There was absolutely no proof presented in court showing any clean up."

Bruce: This is a true statement. It was insinuated that the luminol testing proved there was a clean up. This is completely false. There was no evidence pointing to Amanda and Raffaele so they must have cleaned it up. That is the prosecution's position. There was no proof of any clean up presented in court.

19. "The clasp was not discovered until 47 days had passed."

Bruce: The Machine (Harry Rag) is insinuating that I worded this improperly. He will say that the clasp was discovered along with the bra but the investigators decided to leave it on the floor. Either way, my point is very clear. The clasp was not handled properly by the investigators.

20. "In the 47 days that the clasp was on the floor it was moved around the room and ended up in a pile of garbage."

Bruce: This is a true statement. I have the video showing the clasp in different locations. I also have the video showing the investigators retrieving it from a pile of garbage.

21. "There is no evidence whatsoever placing Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito in the room at the time of Meredith's murder."

Bruce: This is a true statement. The Machine(Harry Rag) is still spreading lies about the shoe prints in the murder room. It has been proven that all shoe prints, set in Meredith's blood, in the murder room, belong to Rudy Guede. The clasp is not credible evidence. So, like I said, There is no evidence whatsoever placing Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito in the room at the time of Meredith's murder.


22. "So in conclusion, the bra clasp tested positive for the DNA of Raffaele and many other people that visited the apartment."

Bruce: This is what my site actually says: So in conclusion, the bra clasp tested positive for the DNA of Raffaele and most likely several other people that visited the cottage. In other words, the bra clasp proves nothing.
 
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I think it's worth noting again that the Italian standard appears to be "intimo convincimento"

(Not that the subtleties of American vs. English jurisprudence isn't an interesting topic in and of itself)

It would be instructive to see a case where an Italian judge got corrected on appeal because he wasn't properly internally convinced. Does that phrase convey something less rigorous than required in the UK or the US? Just your opinion. Doesn't have to be a professional assessment. I'd say it's similar enough to be the same but perhaps I'm not reading it the same way.
 
This post is for Stilicho. He made comments about this list that was compiled to try and discredit my website. I had some time so I broke down the list. This is an extremely weak attempt to discredit me. I am actually surprised that a list this weak would even be posted.

From The Machine (Harry Rag) Here are some Bruce Fisher's factual inaccuracies:

1. "Mignini sold this ridiculous story to a jury and they bought it."

Bruce: If I remember correctly, Amanda and Raffaele were convicted. This is a true statement.
The 'bought it' part is correct. The 'ridiculous story' part not so much.

2. Mignini already had a history of dreaming up "satanic ritualistic murder fantasies".

Bruce: This is a true statement. Read The Monster of Florence.
I still not seen a direct quote from Mignini confirming this little gem.

3. Mignini already had a "past history of corruption".

Bruce: This is a true statement. Read The Monster of Florence.
Can you give a cite or quotation? This book is not available here.

4. "The interrogation of Amanda Knox was illegal."

Bruce: The Italian supreme court ruled that portions of Amanda's interrogation were illegal because she did not have an attorney present. Italy may not use the term "Illegal" as we do in the US.
Don't you think it would have been just a little bit more honest if you included the highlighted sentence on your website? Especially considering that your target audience is mostly American.

5. Amanda Knox was questioned for 14 hours.

Bruce: Amanda was questioned for many hours in the days leading up to her arrest. This statement is not on the site however.
Ok, but you'll agree (i hope) that when people say Amanda was questioned for 14 hours that the impression given is of one interrogation lasting 14 hours.


6. "Suffering from extreme exhaustion with no food nor water, after a long and grueling interrogation, twenty year old college student Amanda Knox gave in to the interrogators demands by describing an imaginary dream or vision."

Bruce: This is a true statement. Amanda stated that she described a vision.
I believe you are well aware that the issue has to do with the highlighted part of that statement.

7. "Amanda consistently told the same story over and over again. She repeatedly told the truth."

Bruce: This is a true statement. Amanda repeatedly told the police the same story leading up to the 5th.
Again, you well know that the issue is whether or not Amanda told the truth.

8. "Physical force was also used on Amanda and she was lied to intentionally to make her believe the police had evidence against her."

Bruce: This is a true statement. Amanda was hit. I know we disagree. I believe Amanda.
You are free to believe what you want, that however doesn't make it true.

9. "One technique is to ask the suspect to imagine hypothetical scenarios. The interrogators feed the information that they want the suspect to imagine. Over long a long drawn out interrogation, the suspect gets confused and starts trying to comply with the request being made to imagine the scenarios. This is exactly what they did to Amanda Knox."

Bruce: This is a true statement. This is a very common interrogation tactic.
Were it not for the fact that Amanda did not have a long, drawn out interrogation.

10. "It's possible the investigators were also targeting Lumumba because of the African hair that may have been found at the scene. Lumumba, of course, was African."

Bruce: This was taken out of context. The Machine (Harry Rag) likes to do this. PMF applauds him for it. Here is what the site says:

It was reported that Investigators found hair at the crime seen believed to belong to an African male. This was mentioned in early reporting but was never mentioned at trial. As it turns out, the hair could have belonged to Meredith.
It's possible the investigators were also targeting Lumumba because of the African hair that may have been found at the scene. Lumumba, of course, was African.
Ok, maybe... can you explain this a little more?

11. "The finger prints pointed to a known criminal. This criminal was an African male named Rudy Guede."

Bruce: This is a true statement. Rudy Guede was then and still is a criminal and he is African.
Ok, but loose with interpretations... but ok.

12. “A sample was taken from the knife blade and was tested for blood. The result was negative. There was no blood on the knife.”

Bruce: This is a true statement. The knife tested negative for blood.
Ok

13. "There was no DNA on the blade."

Bruce: This sentence was pulled out of a paragraph discussing the testing done on the knife before the low copy DNA testing was done. PMF should be embarrased to be using these tactics to try and discredit me. Here is what I actually said:

Italian forensic police expert Patrizia Stefanoni performed the DNA testing on the knife. When the knife was tested, Amanda's DNA was found on the handle. This was expected because Amanda often prepared meals at Raffaele's apartment. She used the knife for cooking.

A sample was taken from the knife blade and was tested for blood. The result was negative. There was no blood on the knife. This needs to be repeated,

THERE WAS NO BLOOD ON THE KNIFE.

What was left of the sample from the blade was tested for DNA.. The results were negative.There was no DNA on the blade.
I'll take your word for it that the discussion took place before LCN testing took place.

14. "The DNA found on the knife came from the lab."

Bruce: This is my opinion. Here is another sentence that The Machine (Harry Rag) plucked out of a paragraph. This is a really poor attempt to discredit a website.
Perhaps, I do note however that unlike with some of the previous examples you are not providing us with the context in which you made the statement, which makes it clear that it's just your opinion and not a fact.

15. "No other knives were taken from Raffaele's apartment."

Bruce: No other knives were taken from the kitchen. There was one more knife in the drawer. Neither of the knives looked like murder weapons so why not test them both? I looked at the video repeatedly and it is impossible to tell if the second knife had a tip or if it was rounded. It doesn't matter anyway. Other items should have been tested from that drawer as a control.
I believe people take issue with your statement because it gives the impression that there were more knives in that drawer that could have been murder weapons.

16. "The outside shutters were open."

Bruce: The Machine (Harry Rag) likes to pull sentences out of paragraphs. Why not post the entire paragraph? Anyway, The shutters did not close properly and Filomena did not rmemebr if she had closed them. Either way, it would have taken Guede seconds to hop up and open the shutters and than jump back down to the ground and throw the rock.
Didn't Filomena testify that she did close the shutters?

17. "They never photographed any glass on top of the clothes."

Bruce: I have not seen any photographs of glass on top of the clothes. This is not an important statement because the clothes were on the floor before the window was broken. The clothes were not there from a staged break in. They were there because Filomena left them there. Filomena's room was not clean. She left clothes on the floor.
You could/should have stopped after that first sentence.

18. "There was absolutely no proof presented in court showing any clean up."

Bruce: This is a true statement. It was insinuated that the luminol testing proved there was a clean up. This is completely false. There was no evidence pointing to Amanda and Raffaele so they must have cleaned it up. That is the prosecution's position. There was no proof of any clean up presented in court.
Ok, I'm not familiar enough with all the court proceedings so I'll take your word for it.

19. "The clasp was not discovered until 47 days had passed."

Bruce: The Machine (Harry Rag) is insinuating that I worded this improperly. He will say that the clasp was discovered along with the bra but the investigators decided to leave it on the floor. Either way, my point is very clear. The clasp was not handled properly by the investigators.
I'd have to agree with Harry in this case. It is worded improperly.

20. "In the 47 days that the clasp was on the floor it was moved around the room and ended up in a pile of garbage."

Bruce: This is a true statement. I have the video showing the clasp in different locations. I also have the video showing the investigators retrieving it from a pile of garbage.
OK

21. "There is no evidence whatsoever placing Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito in the room at the time of Meredith's murder."

Bruce: This is a true statement. The Machine(Harry Rag) is still spreading lies about the shoe prints in the murder room. It has been proven that all shoe prints, set in Meredith's blood, in the murder room, belong to Rudy Guede. The clasp is not credible evidence. So, like I said, There is no evidence whatsoever placing Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito in the room at the time of Meredith's murder.
Ok

22. "So in conclusion, the bra clasp tested positive for the DNA of Raffaele and many other people that visited the apartment."

Bruce: This is what my site actually says: So in conclusion, the bra clasp tested positive for the DNA of Raffaele and most likely several other people that visited the apartment. In other words, the bra clasp proves nothing.
It's still pretty poorly worded.
 
Personally, I would not want to go to prison on account of what someone who had been sleeping on a bench in th emiddle of a city for 8 or 9 years said about me.

A man's occupation should not be considered in determining his reliability as a witness. I don't have a link but there was a local incident where a police officer was reprimanded due only to witness statements supplied by a pair of homeless individuals.

Here's an example of a murder investigation partially solved due to the alertness of a homeless man:


John has a history of drug and alcohol abuse, Carlisle said, and doesn't trust his memory.
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]So John used a knife to twice carve the license plate of the truck — NXF 562 — into the solid white line of the roadway.
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]A police detective later traced the registration of the license plate to a truck owned by Lankford, Carlisle said.
[/SIZE][/FONT]
(Source: http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Mar/04/ln/hawaii803040350.html )

It's less uncommon than you might think for the police to question homeless people in the vicinity of a violent crime. They are often overlooked by criminals for exactly the same reason you do.
 
Amazer Wrote: "Ok, but you'll agree (i hope) that when people say Amanda was questioned for 14 hours that the impression given is of one interrogation lasting 14 hours."

You missed the part where I said that this statement isn't even on my site.
 
Amazer wrote: "I believe people take issue with your statement because it gives the impression that there were more knives in that drawer that could have been murder weapons."

It is very possible that there was. We do not have a completed picture of the knife that was left in the drawer. It could be a round edge bread knife or it could have a pointed tip. We don't know because it wasn't taken out and tested.
 
Amazer,

19. "The clasp was not discovered until 47 days had passed."

Bruce: The Machine (Harry Rag) is insinuating that I worded this improperly. He will say that the clasp was discovered along with the bra but the investigators decided to leave it on the floor. Either way, my point is very clear. The clasp was not handled properly by the investigators.

Amazer: "I'd have to agree with Harry in this case. It is worded improperly."

Do you agree with Fulcanelli and Harry Rag when they say that the clasp was stored properly in the cottage for 47 days?

If the clasp was discovered on the same day that the bra was collected then why didn't they collect it?
 
I said what when? I don't think I've ever cited your website here. Why would I?

You discussed this list at the same place where you called me a Butt Pirate.

I have to say that I laughed when I read that. I found it humorous. It is immature and pointless but funny.
 
A man's occupation should not be considered in determining his reliability as a witness. I don't have a link but there was a local incident where a police officer was reprimanded due only to witness statements supplied by a pair of homeless individuals.

Here's an example of a murder investigation partially solved due to the alertness of a homeless man:


John has a history of drug and alcohol abuse, Carlisle said, and doesn't trust his memory.
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]So John used a knife to twice carve the license plate of the truck — NXF 562 — into the solid white line of the roadway.
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]A police detective later traced the registration of the license plate to a truck owned by Lankford, Carlisle said.
[/SIZE][/FONT]
(Source: http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Mar/04/ln/hawaii803040350.html )

It's less uncommon than you might think for the police to question homeless people in the vicinity of a violent crime. They are often overlooked by criminals for exactly the same reason you do.


I don't overlook, disrespect or disregard homeless people; Seattle is a very homeless-friendly city. If Curatolo had used a knife to draw sketches of Amanda and Raffaele into a surface when he saw them in the piazza, I would agree that would be valuable evidence. Many homeless people are temporarily homeless; they don't deliberately sleep on a bench for 8 or 9 years. I don't think anyone who does would be able to escape some ill effects, at least socially and emotionally, if not mentally.

When I told my husband about Curatolo ID'ing Amanda and Raffaele, he asked a good question: "Did they have a line-up?"

From the fact that they presumably did not, we can conclude that Curatolo's testimony is as valid as Quintavalle's -- that is, they both came forward after they saw pictures of the defendants in the paper, and claimed those were the people they had seen at the time of the crime. Hence, theirs are not non-biased, independent confirmations.
 
Yes, I was attempting to assign odds to the most discussed probabilities.

1. Both results on the knife and bra-clasp are legit.
2. Both results are fabricated.
3. One result is contamination/transfer and the other legit.
4. Both results are some type of contamination/transfer of DNA.

As you have indicated you also feel that the chances are pretty low on number 4. The knife just happens to get contaminated with Meredith's DNA, proving Amanda's involvement and the other just happens to be contaminated with Raffaele's DNA proving his involvement. I am currently inclined to give the odds of number 4 only a 1 in 25 chance and I have had that as low as 1 in 100.

What is your basis for calculating this probability?
 
Because at that point he had no reason to think Amanda was directly responsible for Meredith's murder. He wanted the person who was and wanted Amanda's information so he could apprehend him, get him off the streets and the rest needed to put them away would come when they were investigated. At the time, I suppose he was happy to sacrifice the ability to use Amanda's testimony in court because a) if she gave him what he needed to arrest the right person, subsequent investigation of that person would reveal all the evidence required to convict him and b) at that time, I doubt he suspected that Amanda would then change her statement as well and refuse to co-operate. So, he would have assumed, that he would be able to validate her testimony at a later time in the presence of a lawyer or/and put her on the stand in court as a witness. He believed her, for she'd given him no reason at that point not to. It was a gamble and looking at it logically, at the time, it was a fair one and in most cases would have worked out as intended. In hindsight, no doubt, Mignini would have done things differently.


Why should Mignini regret what he did and want to do things differently? Everything turned out just fine for him -- he knew the system and he knew he couldn't lose. Just get Amanda's statements into the press before (or if) the Supreme Court had time to disallow them.

It's odd to say Mignini believed Amanda, "for she'd given him no reason at that point not to." In fact, about 90% of what she said and wrote that morning pointed to her not being at the crime scene, not being able to remember things clearly, and not being sure of anything she had said during the interrogation. That 90% was a LOT of reasons not to believe the other 10%.
 
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