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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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This is why it's not reasonable to look at a single DNA result and say "aha! this proves guilt" when the match is with someone who was known to have been on the premises the day of and the day after the murder.

And this is why nobody is ever convicted of a crime against anyone living under the same roof. :rolleyes:

Also, this is a real-life straw man. Investigators and prosecutors did not prove AK and RS were guilty because of a single DNA result. There was a mountain of evidence produced at their trials.
 
Isn't this a serious claim? How many people posting on this thread argue this?

Why is it relevant how many other people are arguing it? I myself am not arguing it, by the way (at this stage). And yes, it is a serious claim. The issue then becomes one of constructing reasonable (in the "reasonable doubt" definition) hypotheses to support such a claim.
 
Except she didn't clean up all her own DNA. You are also assuming Raffaele would have left DNA to clean...why would he?

Why would she clean up Rudy's mess? The goal wasn't to hide the fact there'd been a murder, they could never do that....it was merely to cover up their own involvement in it. But as it happens, none of Rudy's DNA was in the bathroom...so either it was never in there in the first place, or, it had been cleaned up by Amanda...so which do your prefer?

What exactly was this 'every reason' she had to fear becoming a prime suspect by accusing Patrick?


As usual, you are twisting and misinterpreting.

I never claimed she cleaned up her DNA - that is the guilters' claim. The guilters' claim from the beginning has been that Amanda and Raffaele cleaned up virtually all evidence of themselves from the cottage. You yourself said last night that she cleaned up what she could see. As I said before, cleaning up some evidence but deliberatley leaving other (blood in the bathroom) requires a great deal of strategizing and forethought.

It is inconsistent to claim that Amanda and Raffaele were strategic enough to leave no evidence of themselves at the crime scene, yet not strategic enough to keep their alibis straight (which the guilters also claim) and not strategic enough to plead ignorance rather than purposely accuse an innocent man against whom there was no evidence.

In fact, if there was any strategy at all involved on the part of Raffaele and Amanda, they would not have called anybody or gone back to the cottage in the morning. They would have stayed at Raffaele's and played dumb.
 
Why don't you think all else was equal? What special treatment did RG get that AK and RS did not? The only thing I can think of is the "fast-track" option which he elected upon the advice of his lawyers.


halides1 covered this when he wrote:

The lab developed evidence that pointed to RG as a suspect. There was no axe to grind. On the other hand, AK and RS were already paraded through the old part of the city and in custody by the time forensic evidence was announced. In the case of the bra clasp, this time gap was especially large. Therefore, various kinds of cognitive bias can come into play with AK and RS that are simply not applicable for RG. Check out the article I cited "CSI for Real" for some good discussion on these biases if you like.
 
Why is it relevant how many other people are arguing it? I myself am not arguing it, by the way (at this stage). And yes, it is a serious claim. The issue then becomes one of constructing reasonable (in the "reasonable doubt" definition) hypotheses to support such a claim.

Because.. Mr LJ, I am admitting I haven't read so thoroughly ( sorry, admitting some posts are dead boringly long so claiming my fault to admit that this slipped past me if more than Mary are arguing this here) And btw I thought you weren't responding to comments that didn't suit you.

I do find this an amazing claim actually, but maybe there are evidences that Mary H and others have put forward other than a possible conclusion when starting from the basis that AK and RS are innocent, fullstop.
 
Not if no evidence was found against him. You don't convict someone without actual evidence, so what would have been the evidence in Patrick's trial in order to keep him in jail?

It took them far shorter time then that...you forget the knife from the kitchen.

They would have found nothing to use on Patrick...since he was not involved in the murder and had never been to the cottage.


I did not forget the knife from the kitchen. I wrote, "The prosecution literally had to go away from the crime scene to find evidence to pin on Amanda..." Maybe you should read more carefully.

Apparently people do get convuicted without actual evidence, since that is what happened in this case. I am sure the Perugian police could have figured out some way to get Patrick eventually.
 
Isn't this a serious claim? How many people posting on this thread argue this?

All of them are, tacitly.

The way they've done this is through sophistry. If you assume that the Polizia Scientifica is never audited (which Kestrel originated) then all results can be stated to be whatever you want them to be.

They can be made unquestionably valid in Rudy's case. They can be tampered with in Amanda's and Raffaele's. (Mary H) There are variations of these but every single one of those supporting the innocence of the convicted murderers also doubts that the Rome crime lab has ever been audited.

It's a frankly dishonest approach.

The right way to argue what they're arguing is to prove it. Show us the audit reports. Show us the media reports. Show us anything in the past two years where the defence teams asked for the lab to be investigated.
 
Because.. Mr LJ, I am admitting I haven't read so thoroughly ( sorry, admitting some posts are dead boringly long so claiming my fault to admit that this slipped past me if more than Mary are arguing this here) And btw I thought you weren't responding to comments that didn't suit you.

I do find this an amazing claim actually, but maybe there are evidences that Mary H and others have put forward other than a possible conclusion when starting from the basis that AK and RS are innocent, fullstop.

Oh dear.

Firstly, to my mind, your post clearly implied that there was some sort of link between the weight (and/or plausibility) of Mary's claim about forensics corruption and the number of others who had previously used this argument. And I think I was reasonable to draw such an inference.

Second, just for the record, I didn't say I wasn't responding to comments that didn't suit me. I stated that I was no longer prepared to engage with certain posters. I am extremely happy and willing to engage in passionate argument with people who take different "sides" to mine. I positively enjoy being challenged, and am very prepared to concede defeat when shown convincingly to be either wrong or misinformed. But only if those challenges come from a position of civility, intellectual honesty, and clarity. However, I can see that there are others who I'm soon also not going to want to engage with......
 
halides1 covered this when he wrote:

I didn't realise that you and halides1 spoke for Kevin. I think he's quite capable of providing his own reasons.

But the following is laughable:

Quote:
The lab developed evidence that pointed to RG as a suspect. There was no axe to grind. On the other hand, AK and RS were already paraded through the old part of the city and in custody by the time forensic evidence was announced. In the case of the bra clasp, this time gap was especially large. Therefore, various kinds of cognitive bias can come into play with AK and RS that are simply not applicable for RG.

It doesn't even make any sense. It sounds as though the laboratory can only function properly if the subjects of the analysis are not in custody. Once they are in custody then they're free to fabricate results to their heart's content. Is that how Halides1 teaches his science courses?
 
How odd that you still won't provide an excerpt, or even a link. You must not feel very strongly about getting this information disseminated.


I tell you this Mary, I do this for the LAST time, so don't you (or anyone else) ask again.


From the top of the first para on page 411 to the end of the last full para on page 414 (3rd last line), Massei Report.


This reconstruction, according to which Meredith’s death is determined as being a few minutes after 23.30 hours is also confirmed by the thanato-chronological data [i.e. data concerning the chronology of death] as there has already been occasion to note, as well as by the following circumstances [which were] highlighted in the relevant chapters:
Meredith’s English mobile phone had a GPRS connection at 22.13.19 hours lasting 9 seconds, under the coverage of the Wind cell with the final numbers 30064, which is compatible with Meredith’s room in the house on Via della Pergola 7; the next telephone contact of the same mobile phone occurred at 0.10.13 hours on the day of 2 November 2007 and the cell connected to was that with the final numbers 25622, which provides coverage to the villa on Via Sperandio and is incompatible with the house on Via della Pergola.
Consequently, at 22.13.19 hours the situation must still have been quiet and Meredith may have been toying with her own mobile phone, as was noted in the chapter dedicated to the examination of the memory of Meredith’s English phone;
at 01.10.31 the mobile phone was no longer in the house on Via della Pergola: at that hour, therefore, Meredith must already have been killed and her phones taken and thrown away. And in fact, Amanda and Raffaele, exiting the house on Via della Pergola around midnight, could easily have reached Via Sperandio in a few minutes, and from there have thrown, towards the zone of trees and bushes which at that time of night may have looked like a precipice or uncultivated woods (an area where the telephones would, with difficulty, have been found by someone), Meredith’s mobile phones. In this regard, it should be underlined that from the file of planimetric surveys [i.e. maps] can be seen the contiguity and closeness of the various streets, situated almost in continuation from one to the other, and therefore known to the current defendants: Via della Pergola, from which one may easily reach Corso Garibaldi, where Raffaele Sollecito’s house was, and Via Sperandio, located almost behind the houses which mark the edge of the old town of Perugia but easily and quite quickly reachable from Corso Garibaldi across various communicating passages which lead to S. Angelo Park, along which runs, precisely, Via Sperandio.
In the chapter dedicated to the examination of the memory of Meredith Kercher’s English mobile phone, there was occasion to point out that the authors of the murder - where they are concerned with the mobile phones - would not have taken them to then throw them into the midst of trees and shrubs. It is clear, therefore, that the aim pursued was different.
A first hypothesis can be seen as an intent to further the simulated burglary so that discovery of the two mobile phones could confirm the lead of the unknown thief who had entered the house on Via della Pergola by breaking the window-pane and who had taken Meredith’s two telephones. This is a hypothesis which, while it has a certain logical validity, seems scarcely credible since to that end it would have been easier to (also) take one of the valuable items in Romanelli’s room, which had already been turned upside down [i.e. rifled].
The other hypothesis, which this Court prefers also in relation to what will be further observed at a later point, holds that it could have been to avoid that the two mobile phones might have rung as a result of calls which Meredith might have received, which thus because of the insistent ringing and lack of an answer might have brought forward the discovery of Meredith’s body to a much earlier time. In particular, Amanda and Raffaele may have thought that Mezzetti or Romanelli or one of the young men from downstairs, particularly Giacomo Silenzi who had a relationship with Meredith, might have gone to the house in the morning and if they had heard the telephone ring without being answered by Meredith, might have gone to check in the room and would have discovered what that room concealed. It was therefore necessary to take the mobile phones away and to throw them far away and it was also necessary to lock the door of Meredith’s room with the key in order to avoid that someone, returning to the house, might have called Meredith and not receiving a response, might have gone into the room and realized, too soon, what had happened.
The apprehension [taking] of the mobile phones which were immediately thrown away and the closing by key of Meredith’s room both had, therefore, the same objective: to isolate Meredith and her room to prevent that anyone who might have gone into the house on the morning of 2 November could have discovered what had happened too early.
Such a requirement may be explained by the necessity of having to check that no compromising traces had been left and by the consequent necessity of having to eliminate any possible traces left.
What has just been said is confirmed by the circumstance by which, on the morning of 2 November at 07.45 hours, Amanda was seen in Quintavalle’s shop and just after leaving was seen travelling downhill along Corso Garibaldi, most likely therefore in the direction of the house on Via della Pergola where, moreover, she might already have been prior to 7.45 hours.
Further confirmation is constituted by the fact that, after Meredith’s murder, some traces were shown to have definitely been erased, a cleaning activity had certainly been carried out. In fact, the bare foot which, stained/covered with blood, left its footprint on the sky-blue mat in the bathroom, could only have reached that mat by taking steps which should have left on the flooring other footprints, also marked out in blood just like (in fact, most likely, with even more [blood], since they were created before the footprint printed on the mat) the one found on the mat itself. Of such other very visible footprints of a bloody bare foot, on the contrary, there was no trace.
Even the drip of blood left on the internal edge of the bathroom door (see photos 141 and 142 already mentioned) seems to be the remainder of a much larger trace.
Moreover, this cleaning activity seems to fit in with the planning carried out by taking the telephones which were then immediately thrown away and by locking the door of Meredith’s room, otherwise one cannot see what other significance these behaviours could have had.
With regard to Meredith’s mobile phones, the hypothesis was also put forward that these same [mobile phones] were removed [taken/stolen] at about 22.00 hours and thrown in Via Sperandio because the author of the theft, hearing the connection made by one of the two telephones, became frightened of keeping them and, being already in Via Sperandio, threw both of them away.
This deals with an assumption that begins from premises that have been shown to be inconsistent according to what was [expanded on/looked at in greater depth] in the appropriate chapters (entrance to Meredith’s room and assault by a single aggressor who had used the broken window as access or had managed to make Meredith open [the door to him]; time of death to be established as being shortly before 22.00 hours; incompatibility of cell 30064 on Strada Vicinale Ponte Rio Monte La Guardia connected to during the connection of 22.13.9 hours with Meredith’s room located in Via della Pergola); such an assumption seems, moreover, completely illogical. Whoever takes mobile phones that, at some point or another, if they are switched on, they may ring or have some connection; to avoid this, it would be easy to turn the mobile phones off or to remove the SIM cards. And then: why throw both mobile phones away if the connection concerned only one of them? [We] cannot see any reason why the author of the crime would have been in Via Sperandio, which is located beyond the city walls of the town, in front of S.Angelo Park which, at that hour, must have been dark and deserted. Furthermore, it must also be observed, if one travels along the Via Sperandio road in the direction [of someone] coming from Via della Pergola, one advances into the countryside (see, once again, the file of planimetric surveys/maps) and [we] cannot see what destination [also aim] a person advancing along that street could have had with any objective other than that held by this Court: to throw the telephones in a place where they would be very difficult to find. To this must be added that[even] if the theft of the telephones had as its object/aim the benefit constituted by the economic value of the same [phones], and that throwing them away was a spontaneous action dictated by fear, [we] cannot see the motive/reason for having locked the door of Meredith’s bedroom.
 
Isn't this a serious claim? How many people posting on this thread argue this?


In my experience, I have found that when people suggest another person is making a "serious" claim, what they really mean to say is they think the other person should not be making that claim. It is usually intended to make the other person feel ashamed, or at least hesitant about their claim, as if such awful words should never be spoken. In this sense, it comes from a place of judging the other person, and trying to suppress their freedom of expression.

It is interesting that in over a year of participating in the ongoing conversation about this case, I don't recall ever seeing any of Amanda's supporters suggest in a similarly shaming way that the prosecution has made a "serious" claim against Amanda, at least not in the sense of the meaning I described above, even though she has been accused of the most serious crime of all.
 
Mary H said:
In fact, if there was any strategy at all involved on the part of Raffaele and Amanda, they would not have called anybody or gone back to the cottage in the morning. They would have stayed at Raffaele's and played dumb.

A strategy that would have made them appear guilty (rather then give them the opportunity to build an alibi with Filomena), a strategy whereby they would have to agonise without having a clue what was going on, nor influence or manipulate from the off the course of the investigation...great strategy Mary!
 
I tell you this Mary, I do this for the LAST time, so don't you (or anyone else) ask again.


Thank you, Fulcanelli. If you had already posted it on this thread, all you had to do was direct me to the page number. I will read it and get back to you.
 
I did not forget the knife from the kitchen. I wrote, "The prosecution literally had to go away from the crime scene to find evidence to pin on Amanda..." Maybe you should read more carefully.

Apparently people do get convuicted without actual evidence, since that is what happened in this case. I am sure the Perugian police could have figured out some way to get Patrick eventually.

But it was you who asserted it took them 6 weeks to get any evidence against them.


The evidence against them was so much, it took a trial 11 whole months to hear it all and then debate it.
 
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A strategy that would have made them appear guilty (rather then give them the opportunity to build an alibi with Filomena), a strategy whereby they would have to agonise without having a clue what was going on, nor influence or manipulate from the off the course of the investigation...great strategy Mary!


Well, apparently the strategy you say they used made them look extremely guilty, because it got them arrested.
 
But it was you who asserted it took them 6 weeks to get any evidence against them.

The evidence against them was so much, it took a trial 11 whole months to hear it all and then debate it.

Oy vey, Fulcanelli, you will be my death!

Originally Posted by Mary_H
Not really. As Charlie suggested a while back, Patrick might still be in prison if he hadn't had an alibi. The prosecution literally had to go away from the crime scene to find evidence to pin on Amanda, and it took them six weeks to find evidence to pin on Raffaele. There is no doubt they could have found something to use on Patrick, too.
 
Mary_H said:
Apparently people do get convuicted without actual evidence, since that is what happened in this case. I am sure the Perugian police could have figured out some way to get Patrick eventually.

Get him eventually? If they were all about fabricating evidence they could have got him any day they wanted. Clearly, this investigation was not about fabricating evidence.
 
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