Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

[gtc]

Standing up against law violations does not equate to how one answers a survey,

Indeed. However, it would be odd if the majority of people 'stood up against the law violations' if they did not think that crimes were committed. Can you explain this?

nor were "war crimes" the only ones.

I am aware that you have claimed that other crimes were committed, indeed you presented surveys that asked Americans whether they thought Bush should be censured for illegal wiretaps.

I stand by what I said.

You stand by something for which you are able to provide no evidence and for which the available evidence actually argues against.

And what about the rest of the text you didn't emphasise which doesn't describe in any way at all, by any stretch of the imagination, the Bush administration?

You noticed that too.

 

[Skeptic]

So, Bush is similar in some ways to Hitler. So is Obama. So am I. So is James Randi. So what? It's the same fallacy as in the "Bible code": since there's a huge number of ways to compare any two people (or oganizations), it is not at all surprising that you'll find some -- indeed many -- similarities, if that's what you set out to do.

Another fallacty here is the belief that somehow "people standing up against law violations" were the cause that Bush didn't actually become dictator. Using the same logic I can argue that the REAL reason Bush didn't diclare martial law and himself dictator-for-life is that I uttered the words "Mumbo Jumbo" every morning.

 

[gumboot]

The NeoCon movement, of which Bush and Cheney were a part, leaned in this direction. Seems a lot of people don't consider suspending habeas corpus, torture, mass spying on citizens, and so on bad enough to warrant language as strong as the term, fascism. Suit yourself.

With anything like this, of course, it's the degree of use that makes the difference. The reason these sorts of things are associated with facism is not because a facist state may, from time to time, employ some of those tactics. The reason they're associated with facism is because they're part of standard methodology under a dictatorship.

Despite the furor over these issues, how often did the US government suspend habeas corpus? How often did the US government commit torture? How often did the US government spy on citizens?

The answer is "hardly ever". Even if every single one of the people detained at Guantanamo Bay was tortured (and best reports are the majority weren't), they still represent a fraction of a fraction of a percent of all people detained by the US in the previous eight years. In 2005 alone the FBI estimates that US law enforcement officers made over 14 million arrests. If that's an average, during the Bush Administration, 112 million arrests were made. 112 million times, people were detained by this apparent fascist state. And of those 112 million instances, how often did torture occur?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I read Wolf's points and see the analogies. Others read it and think the implication is too extreme. There is no reason to think either side is going to be convinced the other is right. It's a value judgment. There is no right or wrong here, just different points of view.

 

[Pardalis]

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

Yep, that's exactly what's going on in Iran right now.

Where is Naomi Wolf?

 

[dudalb]

And I see a certain resembelence between Naomi Wolf's laundy list and the "America is Going Communist" crap we hear from the Tea Party Loons.

 

[Skeptic]

Certainly. But at least the tea party loons don't pretend to care oh so much about human rights all over the world.

 

[Skeptic]

I read Wolf's points and see the analogies. Others read it and think the implication is too extreme. There is no reason to think either side is going to be convinced the other is right.

Weeeellllllllllllll, except for the fact that nothing Wolf said actually happened.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yep, that's exactly what's going on in Iran right now.

Where is Naomi Wolf?

Do you think Wolf would somehow approve of or support the current Iranian dictatorship?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Weeeellllllllllllll, except for the fact that nothing Wolf said actually happened.

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
war against "terrorism"

2. Create a gulag
Gitmo and Bagram

3. Develop a thug caste
Encouragement of the Tea Party gun toters.

4. Set up an internal surveillance system
Data mining, ignore FISA laws and court altogether

5. Harass citizens' groups
Spying on anti war protesters

6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
Extraordinary rendition

7. Target key individuals
Ambassador Wilson

8. Control the press
Purposeful leak to the NYTs then sent the talking heads around to the Sunday talk shows to reference the NYTs article as if it were independent investigation

9. Dissent equals treason
Fired everyone who disagreed with Bush

10. Suspend the rule of law
The epitome of the Bush Cheney presidency.



All of these things were happening when Wolf wrote her piece on how these things mirrored fascism.

In the discussion in this thread, the trend towards a fascist philosophy was confused with a totalitarian takeover of the US government. A totalitarian takeover of the government is not what Wolf predicted would occur. Rather, she suggested Bush/Cheney administration was operating with a fascist philosophy. They felt justified (and Cheney's post administration speeches bear this conclusion out) in increasing Presidential power and in controlling many things considered unconstitutional to control.

That doesn't mean Wolf thought Bush/Cheney were on the verge of carrying out a military coup.


What's mind boggling is the Tea Party spokespersons are so up in arms about the fake claims which have been propagandized into their heads about Obama: health care reform is socialism- it's not; taxes are going up- they went down for the vast majority of the population; gun control is coming - there's not been a single step in this direction; Obama would weaken the military - he's pulling out of Iraq and upping the involvement in Afghanistan, Gitmo is still there and new military detainees are being shifted to Bagram. While during the Bush/Cheney administration when the rights of citizens were seriously eroded and the hubris of the Presidential power was enormous, these same people weren't all that concerned.

It demonstrates the vocal Tea Party members are no more than sheep, blindly following the right wing talking points, apparently unable to think for themselves.

 

[Cobalt]

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
war against "terrorism"

lol, ignorance.

2. Create a gulag
Gitmo and Bagram

lol.

3. Develop a thug caste
Encouragement of the Tea Party gun toters.

0/10 you're an awful troll

4. Set up an internal surveillance system
Data mining, ignore FISA laws and court altogether

lol

5. Harass citizens' groups
Spying on anti war protesters

lol.

6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
Extraordinary rendition

didn't we do this thread years ago?

7. Target key individuals
Ambassador Wilson

what?

8. Control the press
Purposeful leak to the NYTs then sent the talking heads around to the Sunday talk shows to reference the NYTs article as if it were independent investigation

ha ha ha, oh wow

9. Dissent equals treason
Fired everyone who disagreed with Bush

you're joking right?

10. Suspend the rule of law
The epitome of the Bush Cheney presidency.

I retract my previous score, you're a -5/10 troll. Lrn2internet.

All of these things were happening when Wolf wrote her piece on how these things mirrored fascism.

In the discussion in this thread, the trend towards a fascist philosophy was confused with a totalitarian takeover of the US government. A totalitarian takeover of the government is not what Wolf predicted would occur. Rather, she suggested Bush/Cheney administration was operating with a fascist philosophy. They felt justified (and Cheney's post administration speeches bear this conclusion out) in increasing Presidential power and in controlling many things considered unconstitutional to control.

That doesn't mean Wolf thought Bush/Cheney were on the verge of carrying out a military coup.

These are the things that keep you from progressing in life. Lrn2present instead of whine about the past.

What's mind boggling is the Tea Party spokespersons are so up in arms about the fake claims which have been propagandized into their heads about Obama: health care reform is socialism- it's not; taxes are going up- they went down for the vast majority of the population; gun control is coming - there's not been a single step in this direction; Obama would weaken the military - he's pulling out of Iraq and upping the involvement in Afghanistan, Gitmo is still there and new military detainees are being shifted to Bagram. While during the Bush/Cheney administration when the rights of citizens were seriously eroded and the hubris of the Presidential power was enormous, these same people weren't all that concerned.

You haven't a clue what you're talking about. Which makes this funny

It demonstrates the vocal Tea Party members are no more than sheep, blindly following the right wing talking points, apparently unable to think for themselves.

Because there's no such thing as left-wing sheep regurgitating talking points, unable to think for themselves.



wait....

 

[NWO Sentryman]

SG, go back to Prison Planet and thirdworldtraveler.

That laundry list has long been refuted.

You lost all credibility with that one. I suspect that you are now a 9/11 truther.

Gitmo and Bagram were not slave labour camps where millions were starved, killed or worked to death.

Em, how come millions havent been killed in fema death camps yet?

only terrorist and other criminals need to be worried about that and Bush did swear to protect america against terrorists "against all enemies foreign and domestic". Abe lincoln, woodrow wilson and FDR broke the constitution systematically as well when fighting a foreign enemy.

and what? they had been showing inflamatory signs supporting jihadists and the govt wanted to make sure whether or not they were affiliated.

only for suspected terrorists was rendition carried out.

that's politics SG

What? and only crank sites like thirdworldtraveler and Prison "the world is ruled by devil worshippers" Planet are free? the papers RIPPED into bush.

Evidence for that?

and finally, any proof that the US was under martial law with millions being sent to fema death camps.

so now you move the goalposts. Naomi wolf was going on about how bush would cancel the elections and kill us all in fema death camps for a long time. That didnt happen. Bush and Cheney were fighting against genuine dangerous enemies.

Look in the mirror on that one. You were saying bush and cheney were going to make America into Nazi Germany 2.0 and kill us all in Fema death camps. You'd like Len Hart.

This is clear evidence that the Paranoid Style has infected the left endemically.

ETA: the first point reminds me of the Drakaverse where people thought that the Draka werent a threat just before they were enslaved.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

This thread wasn't intended to be taken seriously.

 

[GreNME]

This is clear evidence that the Paranoid Style has infected the left endemically.

No more than has "the right" as far as I can tell, but don't let that stop you from making an ideological statement that's otherwise meaningless outside of partisan rhetoric.

I agree that this thread is ridiculous and that it's pretty much an exercise in SG's inability to admit mistakes and stop defending a position that's long since collapsed. However, implying that the subject of this thread speaks for the left is no more accurate than saying that Glen Beck (or Limbaugh, or Hannity, or Coulter) speaks for the right.

But again, don't let that stop you from throwing a partisan spitball.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

points taken GrenME.

And SG, i recommend the Paranoid style in American Politics by Richard Hofstadter. It's a really good essay and helps you understand that Naomi Wolf and the far right have some eerie similarities.

 

[GreNME]

Great recommend, NWO Sentryman.

I've read a few essays on the paranoid aspects in right and left politics that I wish I still had URLs for, as those would be applicable here as well. One really good one I had compared political paranoia to the kinds you see in both religious and brand loyalty arguments, and the funny thing is that US politics seems to often mix two of those three on a regular basis when it comes to political commentary any more, propagating a sort-of multiplied paranoia that just sort of seeps ridiculous theories.

Example of brand loyalty and politics: Hillary Clinton and (in a slightly different way) Barack Obama; Ron Paul and his son Rand; Joe the Plumber.

Example of religion and politics: Sarah Palin; Mike Huckabee; (back in his day) Jimmy Carter; Glenn Beck and (to a degree) Sean Hannity.

There are also those who have mixed all three, but usually not all at once. As you can see in the names I put above, there are some notably paranoid folks or folks with a paranoid following listed (most of them), and also a few (Huckabee, Obama) who are less so or not really much at all paranoid. I don't think the direction of the ideology (left or right) matters, because paranoia can creep in from any direction and needs very little nurturing to grow into stupid ideas.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

SG, go back to Prison Planet and thirdworldtraveler.[snipped the rest of the lies].

I didn't reopen this thread, and, it would appear all you have are false ad homs to contribute.

It also appears you can't tell the difference between, Third World Traveler, a legit site with legitimately sourced articles, and Prison Planet, a woo site. Pity.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

I didn't reopen this thread, and, it would appear all you have are false ad homs to contribute.

It also appears you can't tell the difference between, Third World Traveler, a legit site with legitimately sourced articles, and Prison Planet, a woo site. Pity.

"false ad homs"? I tore your claims to pieces.

There is no difference. TWT goes on abotu a secret cabal brainwashing us with the "Propaganda model" and PP goes on about devil worshippers ruling the world. And TWT gives us the strawman Captain Planet lense of how the world and global politics works.

TWT also has a LOT of Cranks for contributors such as Paul Craig Roberts, John Pilger, John Stockwell and Michael parenti. It is another practicioner of what Richard Hofstadter (FSM rest his soul) called the Paranoid Style in American Politics. It is also staffed by Stalinists, Maoists and conspiranoids in general.

And you do realise that you just took your credibility and tortured it to death when you endorsed thirdworldtraveler as a "legit site?". There is NO difference, i repeat, NO difference between TWT and Prison Planet.

TWT is so lopsided that if the USA were up against the domination of the Draka, TWT would support the Draka.

 

[jsfisher]

I didn't reopen this thread, and, it would appear all you have are false ad homs to contribute.

It also appears you can't tell the difference between, Third World Traveler, a legit site with legitimately sourced articles, and Prison Planet, a woo site. Pity.

Yep, no woo here: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/Conspiracy_Theories.html


No, wait....

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

...Third World Traveler, a legit site with legitimately sourced articles...