Religious instruction is child abuse

[Complexity]

so you would consider other forms of indoctrination the same way. MAKING children sing national anthems, or pledges to flags etc etc?

I regard requiring children to sing national anthems and say pledges to a flag, or to place them in awkward situations when they do not take part in these activities, to be wrong.

Since people use 'indoctrination' differently, I'll stick to a specific response rather than a general one.

I haven't sung a national anthem or said the pledge of allegiance to the flag since I was a young child, and I regret having done so then. I never will do either again, nor will I ever encourage anyone else to do so, either.

 

[Complexity]

Aren't kids indoctrinated at school?

They frequently are, but they shouldn't be.

I don't think it is necessary to indoctrinate in order to educate.

In fact, to the extent that indoctrination is taking place, education is not.

 

[Piscivore]

I want to shove these bastards off the moral high ground that they claim for their own.

And take it for yourself?

 

[Piscivore]

I, early on, taught my children to question authority- yes even mine. I also taught them that anyone can be mistaken and everyone sometimes lies. I taught them to think and to look at evidence. They took these lessons to heart, and I never once worried about them when they went to church and/or sunday school, or when they hang around with their religious friends. My daughter is even dating a Mormon.

The comparisons of "religious memes" to infectious disease are nothing more than unevidenced appeals to emotion and pretty much articles of faith themselves.

 

[Complexity]

And take it for yourself?

Nope.

I don't think there is or ought to be a 'moral high ground'.

I want people to intrude in each other's lives as little as possible, and that includes what parents do to their children.

It is one thing to share your opinions and beliefs with your child, but they should always be described as your own, assembled through your life's experience.

To tell a child that your beliefs are those of a supernatural creature, regardless of variety, is to load your beliefs with far more authority than they deserve.

 

[Complexity]

I think it is a matter of degree. A little religious instruction is harmless, but complete brainwashing is harmful to the child and should be treated as child abuse. It is a matter of where you draw the line. Please remember too that the majority of the people identify themselves with a religion of some sort. So it would be almost impossible to make religious instruction illegal.

It is a matter of degree, but the lower regions of that degree aren't harmless. Even if the religion that you teach your children is relatively benign (compared to catholicism or fundy denominations), it is far from benign. You are still telling your children that the supernatural exists and can influence this world, that this favored form of woo is ok, that your religious beliefs may conflict with reason and science and that this is ok, you may tell them that your beliefs should win out in such a contest.

You have set them up for less of a life than they deserve.

I didn't suggest that this form of abuse could be made illegal. The majority of people in the US and the rest of the world would disagree, so there is no legal protection to be had.

I also don't think that prohibition of this behavior would be effective.

I don't things in this area will ever improve.

 

[Hannibal]

If I have kids I will raise them as I see fit.

Stay the f#$k out of it

 

[Piscivore]

Nope.

I don't think there is or ought to be a 'moral high ground'.

I want people to intrude in each other's lives as little as possible, and that includes what parents do to their children.

It is one thing to share your opinions and beliefs with your child, but they should always be described as your own, assembled through your life's experience.

To tell a child that your beliefs are those of a supernatural creature, regardless of variety, is to load your beliefs with far more authority than they deserve.

And if a kid has been taught not to trust authority- hell, not to blindly trust anybody- where's the problem? Trust for them must be earned. It's pretty hard for a nonresponsive supernatural creature to do that.

 

[Hannibal]

"Don't touch that live wire son"
"I don't trust you so I'll just...."
ZZZZZZZAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPP
.....................
"Damn..."

 

[Complexity]

I wouldn't agree with all applications of your first sentence. It depends on the situation. One could consider some indoctrination such as indoctrination into extreme fundamentalism (ie teaching your children that: the earth is flat, God magically create everything 6000 years ago (or whatever their number is), etc) as child abuse by grossly distorting the child's view of the world, but I find it hard to say that indoctrination into an extremely liberal faith (ie God create the singularity before the big bang and then let the universe do whatever it wanted to (evolution as it is understood included), God doesn't interfere with this world but only the next world, the bible should be taken metaphorically, etc) is child abuse. Also, I believe it must be taken into account whether the parents believe the claims or not, as in one case the parents are intentionally teaching their children false beliefs, while in the other case a question might rather be raised, not about abuse, but rather about the mental capacity of the parents and their fitness to raise a child.

I don't think that there is a warm and fuzzy, non-interferring enough conception of a god that wouldn't also open the door to sanctioned belief in woo (for what else is it?).

Does it really matter that a parent truly believes that vaccinations pose more harm than good?

Does it matter if a person denies that HIV can lead to AIDS?

Does it matter if a parent thinks that they are right and that they have the right to do things to their children because, after all, they are their property, aren't they?

The child still is injured, it is still abuse.

You may believe that the parent's knowledge and intent mitigate the wrong that they do (and I might very well agree in some cases), but s/he should not be left with the impression that their behavior is praisworthy.

If the person inflicting injury does not think that their behavior can cause injury, 'abuse' may not be the correct term. The child is injured, nontheless, regardless of the word that is used to describe the action that led to injury.

And far too many of those who might legitimately be described as truly believing that their actions are for the good of the child and can lead to no harm persist in the belief that their children are theirs to do with as they wish.

Again, I am not advocating punishing these parents or taking their children from them. I am advocating calling a thing what it is - damaging and potential limiting to the child.

 

[Piscivore]

It is a matter of degree, but the lower regions of that degree aren't harmless. Even if the religion that you teach your children is relatively benign (compared to catholicism or fundy denominations), it is far from benign. You are still telling your children that the supernatural exists and can influence this world, that this favored form of woo is ok, that your religious beliefs may conflict with reason and science and that this is ok, you may tell them that your beliefs should win out in such a contest.

You have set them up for less of a life than they deserve.

You have evidence for any of these claims? The overwhelming majority of people in this forum have come from a background that included at least some religious education and it does not cripple their ability to think rationally or hamper their capacity for independent thought as you seem to imply.

In fact, this whole line of argument includes an unspoken premise that people are completely helpless against "religious indocrination", that once exposed to it it will forever dominate their lives. Given the historical fact that Christianity once controlled most of Western Civ, and once had enough power to torture and main their opponents at will, dictate policy to governments and kings, and control armies and wage wars and now they don't, that's not a supportable premise.

Once again, this whole argument is nothing more than a blatant appeal to emotion (fear, specifically).

 

[Complexity]

Well said Complexity, but you fall far short of the mark.

I say that all parental instruction is child abuse. I mean, seriously, how many parents teach their children utter untruths?

No, what we should do is remove all children from their parents at birth and teach them the real truth^TM. And the teachers must be carefully chosen from amongst the ranks of those who know best.

I nominate Complexity as the great arbiter of all that is true and good. He'll set the curriculum and choose the teachers who will raise the new generation of critical thinking atheists. That'll solve all the problems in the world.

I want people to get out of the habit of backing up their opinions with divine authority when they talk to kids. I want people to share honestly with kids without trying to impose their worldviews (even mine) upon them. I want kids to be schooled so as to prepare them for a life-long education, not to be indoctrinated into good little whatevers.

I gave up worrying about the problems of the world a long time ago. I do worry about what happens in the lives of individuals.

I don't know what The Truth is. I think there is a reality, that our brains are able to apprehend some aspects of it, and that science is the best way we know of approaching the best understanding of reality that we are capable of.

I want some respect for kids as people and for their rights, even when they are young and under their parents' care and protection.

 

[Complexity]

There is no alternative to allowing parently to raise their children as best they know how, short of actionable abuse, that isn't worse than the problem. Gentle persuasion is all we have here.

I agree, except for the 'gentle' and 'persuasion' parts.

 

[Piscivore]

"Don't touch that live wire son"
"I don't trust you so I'll just...."
ZZZZZZZAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPP
.....................
"Damn..."

I never told my kids "don't" without explaining to them "why" and what the possible consequences might be. And yes, they occasionally tested those injunctions anyway. My daughter did when she was flirting with embracing Mormonism (not the Mormon, which is fine). She attended many of their social functions and even attended a service or two. We did not forbid her to explore the teaching of the LDS, we simply told her what our understanding and experiences with that religion were, and told her what we thoguht she should expect. We also asked her pointed questions about why she found the faith attractive. After awhile, she had to admit to us (and herself) almost the only appeal for Mormonism held in particular was that her friends were Mormon. Her explorations petered out after a few weeks, and the subsequent behaviour of her boyfriends parents and church members confirmed everything we told her to expect. And guess what- she hasn't been harmed in the slightest by the "indoctrination" they exposed her to.

 

[Complexity]

What about in the case where one parent believes (although not 'fundamentalist' belief) and the other is an atheist? What do you do then?

I don't do anything.

How much the kid's life may suck depends in part on the quality of the people who are his parents.

 

[Complexity]

Nope.

Your HIV analogy is unfortunately marred by the problem of HIV being with you forever, once you get it, and religious education and rearing, which has immense variability in intensity and influence, being discardable at pretty much any age.

Your attempt at moral equivalence doesn't work, unless you wish to create new and innovative definitions for the term "child abuse" in your quest for brushes with which you'd like to tar somebody.

DR

I disagree with you, of course, as I expect to. We don't see eye-to-eye on this subject at all.

 

[Complexity]

The premise of the OP is absurd and horrifying. I've been agnostic and scientific in thought since about age 14, but to this day I find tremendous value in religious instruction.

The study of ancient beliefs, practices and legendary history tell us a great deal about the peoples and cultures from which we descend. The purposes of religious law include social cohesion, assuaging the fear of death, and protecting innocents from harm, and are as old as human consciousness itself.

You personally might not need system of faith to help you be a good person, but many people do. Many religious persons I know and/or come across in my daily routine (knocking on doors, thank you!) -- whether Christian or Moslem or what-have-you -- are kind and decent people. I've studied with Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics and Lutherans, and among all of these, I've found a love of community and a compassion between individuals that made a lasting impression on me.

I understand that you, Complexity, have been persecuted by the religious for simply being who you are. I too have encountered religious-fueled vitriol, and when I see it it angers me. But such hate-mongers and freedom-bashers represent a minority of their faith; further they're missing the point of their own religion.

Christ spoke of loving one's neighbor as oneself, and of refraining from judgment of others. The people who have insulted and harmed you, or anyone, are twisting their religion to justify their own biases, rather than opening their minds to the message of love and forgiveness (of self and others) inherent in all their parables and metaphors.

For these reasons I utterly reject the premise of the OP and thread title. If the word "instruction" were changed to "inflexible indoctrination" then I might be inclined to agree.

The study of religions, their history and cultures, their beliefs and their writings, is not what I mean by 'religious instruction'.

I've been fascinated by religious history for decades. One of my particular interests is in ancient Greek religions. I have no problem with talking to a kid about what 'holocaust' really means, or how the idea of a scapegoat came about, or the catalog of beasties, or how the concept of a three-personed deity evolved.

I think that this kind of study illuminates a lot about how we became who we are today.

I don't believe in any of the gods and creatures described, however. I would never teach a child that any of this is true, merely that this is what some people thought was true (and that I disagree, and why).

That religious beliefs are ancient and received from one's parents and their parents does nothing to recommend them. Many silly and wrong things have been believed. We progress by examining everything and discarding the things that are wrong or don't work.

Some people may believe that they need delusion in order to be happy. That's their problem. But to inflict it upon others so that the cycle of error and delusion continues is wrong.

'their own religion' is is mistake, for many of us have no religion and are the better for it.

 

[Piscivore]

I want people to get out of the habit of backing up their opinions with divine authority when they talk to kids. I want people to share honestly with kids without trying to impose their worldviews (even mine) upon them. I want kids to be schooled so as to prepare them for a life-long education, not to be indoctrinated into good little whatevers.

Not even good little critical thinkers?

I'll tell you something, C- kids have to be "indoctrinated" into something, because left to themselves humans are ignorant, violent, selfish and mean little animals who will make up a "worldview" that justifies thoes values and behaviors at the drop of a hat. I've never once met a child of lax parents that wasn't a monster.

Where do you think these awful religious worldviews to which you so strenuously object came from? They were gradually invented and refined by generations of ignorant, violent, selfish and mean humans left to themselves.

 

[Complexity]

So do you want my parents arrested?

Nope. But I don't want them to persist in believing that they were doing you a kindness by teaching you that their religious beliefs were true.

 

[Complexity]

If I have kids I will raise them as I see fit.

Stay the f#$k out of it

I do.

I hope you aren't utterly screwing them up, but so it goes.

I also hope that you don't regard them as your playthings, your property that you can use anyway that you wish.

We'll never know.