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What is your excuse for killing animals?

I don't kill animals myself. I pay for others to perform those grisly duties so I don't have to. Nevertheless, as a member of the vastly dominant species on the planet, I don't need an excuse to kill other animals for my own practical and nutritive purposes. It's one of the luxuries of living at the top of the food chain.

It may sound rather callous and blunt, but that's the honest truth so I make no apology for saying it.

Question: If I happened to fall into the lions' pit at the zoo and got eaten, would the lion need an "excuse" to eat me?
 
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You misunderstand at a very fundamental level. Any one of the three qualities imparts protection. Really Kevin, what is your first language?

Pretty much the same criticisms apply anyway - if a human being is helpless, is not being protected by someone who can hit you back, and you don't like them very much then they are fair game for eating by that system.

You also misunderstand by stating that this thread must be about "morality" it's about the charge that it's inconsistent to protect human lives and interest, but not animals.

Nope, you just didn't understand the discussion. The charge is that it's morally inconsistent to do so.

I guess I could call these behavioral structures "morals" but you've already got a circular definition they wouldn't fit, so there's no reason.

It might be amusing to see you try to defend that charge of circularity, but I don't think it's likely to be illuminating.
 
To be honest I don't see why there are 27 pages of discussion. We can, so we do. It's not necessarily right or justified but people do it anyway. Plus it is an easy way to get food. People have been doing it for millions of years and I personally think they are going to be doing it for a million more.
 
To be honest I don't see why there are 27 pages of discussion. We can, so we do. It's not necessarily right or justified but people do it anyway. Plus it is an easy way to get food. People have been doing it for millions of years and I personally think they are going to be doing it for a million more.

Personally, I think we have the potential to be better than that.
 
This is a false dichotomy with a bonus straw man.

You're trying to present us with a choice between two theses:

1. Humans and animals are exactly the same. Morally, humans and animals must be treated identically. (This is your straw man version of veganism).
2. Humans and animals are different. Morally, this means that there is no possible inconsistency in treating animals differently to humans, no matter what we do to animals. As long as we treat humans consistently and animals consistently, we cannot be morally criticised.

It doesn't follow that because animals aren't humans, that we can torture them for fun.

3. You should have a consistent set of objective and morally relevant criteria for what makes an entity morally important, and apply them to all entities regardless of species.

Including plants ?

For some reason nobody ever answers this.
 
I guess not. We're having a discussion about morality, not self-interest.

Isn't morality about self-interest ?

Of course it's in your self-interest to eat meat if you want to eat meat and the thing you want to eat can't fight back

Carrots don't fight back when plucked from the ground, so in a way vegans are even more cowardly than meat-eaters...
 
Pretty much the same criticisms apply anyway - if a human being is helpless, is not being protected by someone who can hit you back, and you don't like them very much then they are fair game for eating by that system.

You left out the possibility of being protected by someone who could help me, but otherwise you've finally got it!

Can you tell me what's wrong with this besides your own visceral reaction?
 
3. You should have a consistent set of objective and morally relevant criteria for what makes an entity morally important, and apply them to all entities regardless of species.

"Being human" is still a consistent and relevant quality no matter how you slice it. If you break it up into sub-qualities, remove some of them and say that those are the important ones, and some apply to non-human animals then I can still just say, "I want to retain quality X that you removed".

Also not forgetting we haven't really established what those qualties are or how to measure them - they're just presumed as "obvious" with anyone wishing to explore futher just an "idiot" who doesn't understand.
 
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I don't see anything morally reprehensible about killing bacteria, or smashing a rock. As I stated earlier I think it's quite plausible that insects have no consciousness, and as such can't suffer in the morally important sense, but since we don't really understand consciousness I could be wrong and for that reason alone I wouldn't torture an insect unless there was some good reason.

Personally I think pulling the legs off a fly is yucky but probably not immoral (but I acknowledge that I could be wrong), because a fly is probably not conscious of it happening. Whereas I am as sure as I am of anything that deer have consciousness and can suffer and I would consider killing a deer for sport a far more serious thing than pulling the legs off a fly for sport.

Mind you, the option of not torturing flies and not killing deer for sport is also available and seems on the face of it to be morally preferable.

You are confusing your personal opinion with morality.
 
Personally, I think we have the potential to be better than that.

Here is the crux of your argument, you think it's somehow better to eat vegetables than meat. The only justification you have given for this is your own personal opinion.
 
Here is the crux of your argument, you think it's somehow better to eat vegetables than meat. The only justification you have given for this is your own personal opinion.

Can you think of a moral position on any topic that doesn't involve personal opinion?
 
I don't kill animals myself. I pay for others to perform those grisly duties so I don't have to. Nevertheless, as a member of the vastly dominant species on the planet, I don't need an excuse to kill other animals for my own practical and nutritive purposes. It's one of the luxuries of living at the top of the food chain.

Somehow I doubt you apply this moral philosophy (or lack-thereof) consistently.

Question: If I happened to fall into the lions' pit at the zoo and got eaten, would the lion need an "excuse" to eat me?

Are you saying we should model our morals after lions?
Or are you saying we should kill animals that would kill and eat us if given the chance? Which relates to cows, pigs and chickens somehow??
 
I didn't say any of those things. I think you're over-analyzing my point a bit, and projecting a "morality" onto it that I clearly did not intend. All I am saying is that life on Earth is not as cuddly and cushy as some people apparently want to believe. Please allow me to clarify my position.

In order for one living being to survive, another organism must die. That is the natural order. You can pretend to be living above that rule, but that would be denial of a basic reality of life. Whether you dig a carrot out of the ground, stick a metal hook in the water to snag a fish, whack the head off a chicken, or tear a few hundred mice limb from limb and crush tens of thousands of insects while harvesting a field of wheat, the death of some living organisms is going to factor prominently into your own bid for survival. No matter how much you try to insulate yourself by purchasing your food pre-packaged at the cushiest of high-end boutique grocery markets, it's unavoidable. It's life.

Mankind is, and has always been, an omnivore. Adaptability is perhaps mankind's strongest feature, and our physical adaptation to a widely varied diet is one of the strongest points in our favor as a species. Being omnivores, we have the luxury of deciding what kind of food we prefer to eat. People on every continent on the planet eat meat, and it has been a staple of the human diet more often than not. The only reasons why people don't eat meat are economic, cultural or personal.

Meat is a very efficient food in terms of satisfying most of our nutritional needs. Proteins derived from meat are more easily and quickly absorbed by our bodies than proteins supplied through the combination of legumes and grains. Animal meat contains most of the necessary nutrients for our survival, in the proper quantities.

However, an over-reliance on meat is not good either. A diet too rich in meat increases risks of heart disease, high blood pressure and other health problems. Raw meats incur energy costs in the form of refrigeration, have a shorter shelf-life than vegetables or grains, and can transmit disease more easily. Processed meats are likewise costly in terms of energy. Meat is slow to produce and expensive to transport. The economics of ranching are far less efficient than farming grains and vegetables, and that negatively impacts the world's food supply.

Because we are omnivores and have lots of dietary options, and because we're capable of reasoning through our own impact on our environment, some degree of morality should apply to our dietary habits. This also ought to extend to our treatment of animals, given the facts we know about their ability to suffer pain. Just because we're raising and killing them for food, that doesn't mean we necessarily ought to torture them to death in the process, regardless of economic concerns.

I believe that here in the US, we would do well to reduce our consumption of meat. The amount we consume per capita is unhealthy for a number of reasons. We ought to have tighter restrictions on the raising and slaughter of livestock, to protect both the animals and the surrounding environment. These are ideas which I advocate strongly.

However, I'm not going to sit here and say that it's our collective moral obligation to stop eating meat altogether. I'm not going to say that anyone who refuses to give up his hamburger is an ignorant brute blocking mankind's evolution into a kinder, gentler species which loves and coddles all living things, eliminates suffering and promotes joyful goodness and happiness. I consider that attitude to be quite naiive, quite arrogant, and offensive.
 
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I think I'm done... once the other side is reduced to tiny posts repeating points which have already been answered repeatedly, there is nothing new to be said, and nothing to be gained by repeating oneself just for those people's benefit.
 
Can you think of a moral position on any topic that doesn't involve personal opinion?

No, therefore the entire premise in the OP is wrong.

Since it's all personal opinion no one needs an "excuse".

KL seems to think he has a consistent, logical moral argument so you might want to ask him about that.
 
I didn't say any of those things. I think you're over-analyzing my point a bit, and projecting a "morality" onto it that I clearly did not intend. All I am saying is that life on Earth is not as cuddly and cushy as some people apparently want to believe. Please allow me to clarify my position.

Gotcha. Isn't morality what the thread is about, though?
 
I think I'm done... once the other side is reduced to tiny posts repeating points which have already been answered repeatedly, there is nothing new to be said, and nothing to be gained by repeating oneself just for those people's benefit.

A tiny post .
 
No, therefore the entire premise in the OP is wrong.

Since it's all personal opinion no one needs an "excuse".

KL seems to think he has a consistent, logical moral argument so you might want to ask him about that.

Just because normative topics involve opinion, doesn't mean they're useless to discuss.
 

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