Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Fiona]

What do you base that "take" on?

 

[nicole]

I heard him on the radio not more than 6 hours ago. He was telling some story about a demoniacally possessed painting he'd bought. Strangely he seemed to be working as an art dealer which may explain why he has fallen out of the limelight.

Wiki says (so it must be true) that he died in 1993 aged 82. Time to ditch your old crystal set and invest in a DAB

 

[shuttlt]

My take on it was not that Verini was lying, but that he got a general feeling from Amanda that she was doing okay, and when he made a public statement to the press, he polished it up a bit. It happens. As I understand it, Amanda said her lawyers did a great job. It really isn't her place to evaluate whether or not the trial was fair, because she is not educated in procedures of Italian law.

But there is no way to know, yes? I can no more claim that she definitely did say it, than you can that she definitely didn't. If she's innocent then perhaps she is a reliable source (though she and her family have a lot riding on this, so they might lie even so), if not then we probably shouldn't trust her. Public trust in Italian MP's is terrible, so maybe there is no great reason to trust him either.

As for the fairness of the trial. Clearly if Amanda did say this she would not be offering a professional legal opinion, just as I wouldn't be offering a professional opinion if I said I got a good deal on my house. It doesn't mean she didn't say it, it just alters the sense in which we should take what she says. Perhaps if she did say it she was just repeating her lawyers opinion?

I am not clear what the significance is of the whole "I had a fair trial" business.

 

[shuttlt]

I will believe that when one of Amanda's supporters spits me out a wiki link.

Dan O. is the only pre-verdict JREFer still posting who I can think of that I would describe as an Amanda supporter. Wiki links to logical fallacies aren't his style. There was more of that way back in December.

 

[nicole]

...you speak out for a victim who had absolutely no connection to your life...

It's the "Princess Di" syndrome, Mary_H, a well recognised medical condition since 1997. You've got to feel sorry for the poor blighters.

 

[Mary_H]

What do you base that "take" on?

I base it on life experience and common knowledge, Fiona. Did you notice that I wrote, "It happens?" It would take quite a while for me to go back over the course of my life to review, enumerate, specify and describe all the times I have seen or heard people misquote other people in the news; do you really want me to do so?

I take it this is not your experience, or it would not have occurred to you to ask me a question about something that is common knowledge. I think you're British, aren't you? Possibly in Britain public figures never embellish statements for the sake of public relations, or, when quoting someone else, never forget the exact words that person used.

Let me explain further: Public figures have what they perceive as an obligation to present a specific image to their audience. I believe Verini had the best intersts of his constituency at heart when he spoke. Given what he has at stake, though, I think it is healthy to take what he said with a grain of salt, as is recommended we do with all politicians.

The fact that there is a dispute about what was said leads us to analyze and compare the different versions, and draw conclusions based on what we know about Amanda's place in the situation versus the place of the civic official who visited her. I have to admit that based on prior knowledge, I find it very hard to believe Amanda said the trial was fair.

To avoid having to substantiate my beliefs about Amanda to the lengths of kingdom come, however, I took a neutral stance and declared that Amanda is not a qualified authority on whether or not her trail was fair. That should please everyone.

 

[Kermit]

you speak out for a victim who had absolutely no connection to your life

.
Do you speak out for a convict (pending appeal) who DOES HAVE a connection to your life?

 

[Mary_H]

But there is no way to know, yes? I can no more claim that she definitely did say it, than you can that she definitely didn't. If she's innocent then perhaps she is a reliable source (though she and her family have a lot riding on this, so they might lie even so), if not then we probably shouldn't trust her. Public trust in Italian MP's is terrible, so maybe there is no great reason to trust him either.

As for the fairness of the trial. Clearly if Amanda did say this she would not be offering a professional legal opinion, just as I wouldn't be offering a professional opinion if I said I got a good deal on my house. It doesn't mean she didn't say it, it just alters the sense in which we should take what she says. Perhaps if she did say it she was just repeating her lawyers opinion?

I am not clear what the significance is of the whole "I had a fair trial" business.

You're right, he wasn't asking for a legal opinion. I believe if Verini actually asked Amanda if she got a fair trial, it would be implied that he was asking her if she FELT she got a fair trial. Somehow, I can't imagine him even asking the question. It just seems like a really inappropraite thing to ask a girl who has been through so much and has just been convicted of murder -- I mean, just try to imagine yourself in Verini's situation: "Well, hello there, young lady! Do you think you got a fair trial?"

In addition to Verini's side of it, we have to take into consideration that, if he actually did ask Amanda if she got a fair trial, what is she going to say? No? Not bloody likely, given her broken trust in the Perugian court system. For all she knew, saying no could lead to a longer sentence, or yet ANOTHER slander suit from Mignini.

My bottom line is I choose to believe Amanda's parents.

 

[Montmorency]

I have to admit that based on prior knowledge, I find it very hard to believe Amanda said the trial was fair.

What prior knowledge is this Mary H?

Did Amanda Knox not thank the prosecuting team at the end of the trial? I think she did. It was like an oscar speech. Maybe once it is bad reporting but twice I think not. I am still trying to find the source of the second visitor she told she had a fair trial. I think Amanda is accepting her sentence really, so it does not surprise me she has found the peace to say these things.

 

[shuttlt]

I base it on life experience and common knowledge, Fiona. Did you notice that I wrote, "It happens?" It would take quite a while for me to go back over the course of my life to review, enumerate, specify and describe all the times I have seen or heard people misquote other people in the news; do you really want me to do so?

Many times they do quote people correctly though. In this case they appear to be quoting Walter Verini correctly. Perhaps he is lying.

I take it this is not your experience, or it would not have occurred to you to ask me a question about something that is common knowledge. I think you're British, aren't you? Possibly in Britain public figures never embellish statements for the sake of public relations, or, when quoting someone else, never forget the exact words that person used.

I am British as well. Sure it happens. Some of our newspapers have been known to make up interviews as well.

Let me explain further: Public figures have what they perceive as an obligation to present a specific image to their audience. I believe Verini had the best intersts of his constituency at heart when he spoke. Given what he has at stake, though, I think it is healthy to take what he said with a grain of salt, as is recommended we do with all politicians.

Amanda's parents have a lot at stake, and probably more than Verini.

The fact that there is a dispute about what was said leads us to analyze and compare the different versions, and draw conclusions based on what we know about Amanda's place in the situation versus the place of the civic official who visited her. I have to admit that based on prior knowledge, I find it very hard to believe Amanda said the trial was fair.

Her lawyer says the trial was fair.

To avoid having to substantiate my beliefs about Amanda to the lengths of kingdom come, however, I took a neutral stance and declared that Amanda is not a qualified authority on whether or not her trail was fair. That should please everyone.

It depends what is being claimed. If you mean to say that what was said is lost in the fog of confusion and probably not important anyway, then OK. I thought perhaps you were saying this to argue that to have said what she was claimed to have said would have been offering a legal opinion, she was not able to offer a legal opinion, therefore she didn't say it. This interpretation reminded me of the whole "she couldn't say that Patrick hadn't killed Meredith, because she wasn't there" argument. If that's not what you meant, OK.

 

[Mary_H]

.
Do you speak out for a convict (pending appeal) who DOES HAVE a connection to your life?

There's a difference between working to get someone free versus working to get someone into jail. I would have no stomach for the latter in any case; that's why I'm not a cop or a prosecutor.

 

[Mary_H]

It's the "Princess Di" syndrome, Mary_H, a well recognised medical condition since 1997. You've got to feel sorry for the poor blighters.

Thank you, nicole. Your posts make me smile.

 

[Fiona]

I base it on life experience and common knowledge, Fiona. Did you notice that I wrote, "It happens?" It would take quite a while for me to go back over the course of my life to review, enumerate, specify and describe all the times I have seen or heard people misquote other people in the news; do you really want me to do so?

I take it this is not your experience, or it would not have occurred to you to ask me a question about something that is common knowledge. I think you're British, aren't you? Possibly in Britain public figures never embellish statements for the sake of public relations, or, when quoting someone else, never forget the exact words that person used.

Let me explain further: Public figures have what they perceive as an obligation to present a specific image to their audience. I believe Verini had the best intersts of his constituency at heart when he spoke. Given what he has at stake, though, I think it is healthy to take what he said with a grain of salt, as is recommended we do with all politicians.

The fact that there is a dispute about what was said leads us to analyze and compare the different versions, and draw conclusions based on what we know about Amanda's place in the situation versus the place of the civic official who visited her. I have to admit that based on prior knowledge, I find it very hard to believe Amanda said the trial was fair.

To avoid having to substantiate my beliefs about Amanda to the lengths of kingdom come, however, I took a neutral stance and declared that Amanda is not a qualified authority on whether or not her trail was fair. That should please everyone.

So nothing, then? OK

 

[Mary_H]

So nothing, then? OK

I deduced you had asked me the question out of hostility. You have confirmed my perception.

 

[Fiona]

I asked it because I was interested in what you based your conclusion on.

 

[Mary_H]

What prior knowledge is this Mary H?

Did Amanda Knox not thank the prosecuting team at the end of the trial? I think she did. It was like an oscar speech. Maybe once it is bad reporting but twice I think not. I am still trying to find the source of the second visitor she told she had a fair trial. I think Amanda is accepting her sentence really, so it does not surprise me she has found the peace to say these things.

She also expressed comapssion and empathy for the police who had interrogated her. She is a courteous, well educated young woman who follows social protocols very well.

 

[shuttlt]

You're right, he wasn't asking for a legal opinion. I believe if Verini actually asked Amanda if she got a fair trial, it would be implied that he was asking her if she FELT she got a fair trial.

Agreed.

Somehow, I can't imagine him even asking the question. It just seems like a really inappropraite thing to ask a girl who has been through so much and has just been convicted of murder -- I mean, just try to imagine yourself in Verini's situation: "Well, hello there, young lady! Do you think you got a fair trial?"

The conversation is claimed to be much more like this:

At half past three in the afternoon, parliamentarian Walter Verini is outside her cell. He has been interested in prisons for some time. At Capanne, he visits all ten sections, spending time with the police and the inmates. Passing from one cell to another, he calls on the one holding Amanda Knox, who a few days earlier was convicted of murdering Meredith Kercher. Amanda speaks first: “Can I help you?” she asks with a smile, as Verini would later say. But she becomes more serious when the politician puts the inevitable question of American reactions to her conviction. “Yes, I’ve heard. It’s been on TV, too. Obviously, I was pleased but...”.

It seems he speaks to a lot of prisoners. One of my observations about Amanda is that she seems quite chatty, probably to a fault.

In addition to Verini's side of it, we have to take into consideration that, if he actually did ask Amanda if she got a fair trial, what is she going to say? No? Not bloody likely, given her broken trust in the Perugian court system. For all she knew, saying no could lead to a longer sentence, or yet ANOTHER slander suit from Mignini.

I agree that she may have said that she got a fair trial for reasons of politeness, or concern for the consequences. Still her lawyers says everything she is claimed to have said about her trial being fair and her rights being respected.

My bottom line is I choose to believe Amanda's parents.

Sure. You choose who you believe. If you default to believing her parents then it's probably inevitable that you will believe she is innocent (or do you disbelieve them about some stuff?).

 

[shuttlt]

She also expressed comapssion and empathy for the police who had interrogated her. She is a courteous, well educated young woman who follows social protocols very well.

Is that why she dressed the way she did at the trial, and did cartwheels in the police station? Or were you joking?

 

[Mary_H]

Sure. You choose who you believe. If you default to believing her parents then it's probably inevitable that you will believe she is innocent (or do you disbelieve them about some stuff?).

Yes, I do believe she innocent. I am not really that familiar with all the things her parents have said but I can't think of any reason to disbelieve them. The truth is on their side.

 

[Mary_H]

Is that why she dressed the way she did at the trial, and did cartwheels in the police station? Or were you joking?

I don't see any dissonance between Amanda's level of compassion and empathy and the behaviors you describe.