Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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RoseMontague said:
Guys,
I was hoping to get an answer to my question about the date on that "broken pipe" photo and who took that picture. Now I may never know. If you have some thoughts on that, I would appreciate it.
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Rose,

I think it may have been a police photo from the November 16, 2007 search of Raffaele's flat.
 
My latest conversation with Kermit is a typical example of how things go on this thread.

Kermit has been arguing with me for weeks about the shoe print information that I provide that proves that Amanda'a shoe print is not on the pillow.

Keep in mind, Kermit agrees 100% with the conclusion of my presentation. Kermit agrees that Amanda's shoe print is not on the pillow.

Yet Kermit keeps repeating endlessly;

"show me the 5 perfect matches Bruce"

He doesn't like one sentence that I put on an article comment section on the daily beast.

Let me remind you, he agrees 100% with my conclusion.

He makes a collage showing one of the five prints that he doesn't think is perfect, his attempt is very poor but he doesn't think one of the prints is a perfect match.

He doesn't attempt to say that the print belongs to anyone else, he simply doesn't like that I said the words "perfect match" one time on the daily beast site.

He also includes a comment about Amanda's vibrator in his collage.

Keep in mind, Kermit agrees 100% with my conclusion.

He then takes this information and repeats it over and over again. Bruce is not credible, he thinks all five prints are a perfect match.

At one point he even brings the sharing of bras into his rant. I have never mentioned sharing bras. Yet Kermit stated.

The 5 perfect shoe prints is just as bad as people like you that talk about sharing bras.

Kermit uses this "perfect match" sentence from the daily beast to try and discredit me.

Keep in mind, Kermit agrees 100% with my conclusion.

The entire time, Kermit agreed with my conclusion regarding the shoe prints on the pillow.

He made a huge deal about nothing to try and discredit me.

All this does is causes a distraction. It it a childish game that I have no need to be a part of.

Not one person on this thread disagreed with his tactics.
 
katy_did said:
Well, I would tend to agree with you as regards the jury demanding a convincing narrative. The problem here is that there's a clash between the realities of scientific evidence, and what the jury expect to see. As I understand it, contamination can't be definitively proven, which is why control measures are necessary. If it were easy to tell whether contamination occurred, a scientist could just look at the way the sample had been treated and say "Nope, no risk of contamination here". They carry out control tests because it is impossible to tell how and when contamination occurred. As I think Halides has said previously, it's like trying to figure out where and when you caught a cold. You might be able to take an educated guess, but you can't prove it, and you might have no idea at all where you got it from.

But yes, the jury demand definite answers, and that's a problem when there aren't any. It should be enough to show that contamination was possible; but instead, the jury want to see a definite source, and a definite time it occurred, and they want hard evidence of both, even when that evidence is impossible to provide. It's a clash between science and the law (among other things), and one of the problems with scientific evidence.
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Actually, if Halides1 has provided anything helpful at all to this discussion, contamination definitely can be proven and has been proven in case after case. All his links provide evidence, circumstances, and in some cases the process by which contamination was proven.

Now all that remains is for his scientific mind to apply those examples to the murder case in Perugia. It's not sufficient to argue "it could have been Raffaele using a towel". None of those examples he provides were resolved by such a throw-it-at-the-wall approach. So far, we haven't even heard explicitly whether the alleged contamination occurred at the cottage, en route to the laboratory, or at the laboratory. That should tell you something.

Pick one scenario and stick with it. If it's wrong then it must be abandoned in favour of a more reasonable explanation. That's how science works.
 
RoseMontague said:
I was thinking they searched there well before the 16th?? Does it look like the other police photo's we have seen? It just strikes me as strange.
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On Bruce's site there are receipts of Raffaele's photographed by the police. The date on the photographs is November 16, 2007 (I think the date on the broken pipe jpg is also November 16, 2007).

I do not know if this was the first and only time his flat was searched or if it was one of many searches conducted by the police.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Yet Kermit keeps repeating endlessly;

"show me the 5 perfect matches Bruce"

He doesn't like one sentence that I put on an article comment section on the daily beast.
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You're missing the point. If there aren't five perfect matches to RG's shoe prints in Meredith's room then you are required to change your assertion.

It sounds pretty simple to me.
 
christianahannah said:
On Bruce's site there are receipts of Raffaele's photographed by the police. The date on the photographs is November 16, 2007 (I think the date on the broken pipe jpg is also November 16, 2007).

I do not know if this was the first and only time his flat was searched or if it was one of many searches conducted by the police.
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Perhaps that would explain it then. Those were video stills and the date/time stamp is larger and in the wrong spot for a normal digital photo.

Thank you. I guess if Bruce wasn't so busy arguing with others he could have easily answered my question. It helps to lesson my concern over the broken pipe being staged or posed.
 
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lector said:
Whoa, Fulc, slow down. Those are two unsupportable assumptions of your own, right there.

If you have some special knowledge of Italians' toilet habits, please share. Those comments are not at all consistent with my habits or observations; things may be different over there, of course.

Lord, this is sad, debating what men do after having a pee.
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Well, these are from my observations in male public toilets...more often then not, they'll head straight out when done without going near the sink and sometimes when they do, it's only to deal with their hair.
 
Fiona said:
It has never been claimed that Knox's shoeprint was on the pillow, so far as I recall.
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That is a pretty bold lie.


Fiona said:
Footprint evidence.

Shoe prints were found in the victim's room. They were all a match for Guede's shoes, except for one smaller one which has not been attributed to anyone and which was found on the pillow under Kechner's body. It did not match any of the shoes seized by the police. The print experts were able to say it was a size 37 or 38, and one of them said it was a particular type of tennis shoe.
...
In Italy the judge must make the full reasons for his decision public. In his 106 page account of his reasons for deciding to commit Knox and her boyfriend for trial after the conviction of Guede, these footprints were a strong factor.
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Are you claiming that the judge wanted to hold Amanda for trial because a strangers footprint was found in the victim's room?
 
RoseMontague said:
Perhaps that would explain it then. Those were video stills and the date/time stamp is larger and in the wrong spot for a normal digital photo.

Thank you. I guess if Bruce wasn't so busy arguing with others he could have easily answered my question. It helps to lesson my concern over the broken pipe being staged or posed.
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Rose, you just posted the question tonight. I think it's pretty funny that you see me as the instigator. I explain myself endlessly and it is completely ignored. The response to my explanation of the exchange that Kermit and I had is a perfect example.

This board is really not worth talking on.

If you have questions, please send me an email


injusticeinperugia@yahoo.com
 
stilicho said:
You're missing the point. If there aren't five perfect matches to RG's shoe prints in Meredith's room then you are required to change your assertion.

It sounds pretty simple to me.
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If you cannot understand my explanation of the conversation that I had with Kermit then I simply see no reason to continue talks with you. I could not have made myself more clear.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Rose, you just posted the question tonight. I think it's pretty funny that you see me as the instigator. I explain myself endlessly and it is completely ignored. The response to my explanation of the exchange that Kermit and I had is a perfect example.
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Not ignored.... just found lacking substance. It's up to you to rectify that shortcoming.

This board is really not worth talking on.
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Then don't... it's really that simple.
 
RoseMontague said:
I was thinking they searched there well before the 16th?? Does it look like the other police photo's we have seen? It just strikes me as strange.
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It's not strange at all. The 16th is when they identified the DNA that was supposedly on the knife so they ran back after the fact to take pictures of the drawer. The missing pipe under the sink was taken 5 minutes after the silverware drawer.

http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11/se...a3/fidanzato-meredith/fidanzato-meredith.html
The yellow of the tickets. The apartment reminder, according to the minutes of seizure of November 16, were found three tickets, but none of the Nov. 2: one is dated November 4, the other two date back to May 19 and 21 March. And there are no tickets on November 2, even in the last minutes of searching at the home of Sollecito, one of 6 November in which, among other things, investigators seized a kitchen knife was found upon which the DNA of Meredith and Amanda Knox, her American roommate.​


They were also searching the apartment on the 17th and found the Harry Potter book that they made such a stink about.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
This board is really not worth talking on.
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This board is great for talking. It's just abysmal for discussing contentious issues. The strategy I use with abusive posters is to put them on ignore. If they say anything worth responding to, I'll see it in someone else's quote.
 
Hello all. Hope you don't mind if I join in the fun; I have been looking over the last several pages of the discussion. Just to back up for a moment, if I may, I want to respond to something Fulcanelli wrote ten pages ago, about Amanda's interrogation:

Fulcanelli said:
I don't really call 1 hour and 45 minutes through the night. And who cares whether it was day or night time?
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The police care. They are trained to do this sort of work at night. In The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn made a list of 31 techniques used by prison interrogators. Questioning suspects at night is Number One on the list:

”Let us try to list some of the simplest methods which break the will and the character of the prisoner without leaving marks on his body Let us begin with psychological methods.....

"1. First of all: night. Why is it that all the main work of breaking down human souls went on at night? Why, from their very earliest years, did the Organs select the night? Because at night, the prisoner, torn from sleep, even though he has not yet been tortured by sleepless-ness, lacks his normal daytime equanimity and common sense. He is more vulnerable.”

It was for this very reason the Perugian police arrested Patrick Lumumba at night. Not only did it render Patrick virtually helpless, it also made the arrest much more dramatic and hence more newsworthy.

It has been reported that, in the days following the murder, the Perugian police interviewed 86 various people who were acquainted with Meredith Kercher. They did not interview Patrick Lumumba, a well-known, local businessman who was also the employer of one of their prime suspects. Why not?

It also has been reported the police were observing Patrick's cell phone activity -- they were aware he had switched either cell phones or sim cards in the days following the murder. If true, what possible reason could they have for not interviewing him calmly, during the day, in the presence of a lawyer, before Amanda's interrogation -- especially about Amanda?

When the police stormed out to arrest Patrick in the middle of the night, he was at home, where he had slept every night since the crime was committed. In other words, they had no evidence he was planning to leave town. What was the rush?
 
Chris, I will not withdraw my comments.

Your posting on this thread has been nothing more than attempts at throwing anything, and everything, at the DNA evidence against Raffaele and Amanda and hoping something will stick long enough to discredit the lab results.

This is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at worst.


While I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much when I was corrected. Additionally, as I have pointed out previously, those mistakes have little to no bearing on the point I was making.

I was not, in any way, mixed up about the timeline of the photograph in Rome. I very clearly asked for evidence that the Mafia Boss' photograph had not been posted till after he had been convicted, a piece of evidence you were unable to provide. I admitted my confusion between RFU and pg, I also explained that confusion, and then explained that the point I was making is still a valid one - regardless of the unit of measure I used in the initial argument. However, rather than discuss that issue fairly and above board, you would rather simply attack me for my honest mix-up in nomenclature.
 
Mary_H said:
Hello all. Hope you don't mind if I join in the fun; I have been looking over the last several pages of the discussion. Just to back up for a moment, if I may, I want to respond to something Fulcanelli wrote ten pages ago, about Amanda's interrogation:



The police care. They are trained to do this sort of work at night. In The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn made a list of 31 techniques used by prison interrogators. Questioning suspects at night is Number One on the list:

”Let us try to list some of the simplest methods which break the will and the character of the prisoner without leaving marks on his body Let us begin with psychological methods.....

"1. First of all: night. Why is it that all the main work of breaking down human souls went on at night? Why, from their very earliest years, did the Organs select the night? Because at night, the prisoner, torn from sleep, even though he has not yet been tortured by sleepless-ness, lacks his normal daytime equanimity and common sense. He is more vulnerable.”

It was for this very reason the Perugian police arrested Patrick Lumumba at night. Not only did it render Patrick virtually helpless, it also made the arrest much more dramatic and hence more newsworthy.

It has been reported that, in the days following the murder, the Perugian police interviewed 86 various people who were acquainted with Meredith Kercher. They did not interview Patrick Lumumba, a well-known, local businessman who was also the employer of one of their prime suspects. Why not?

It also has been reported the police were observing Patrick's cell phone activity -- they were aware he had switched either cell phones or sim cards in the days following the murder. If true, what possible reason could they have for not interviewing him calmly, during the day, in the presence of a lawyer, before Amanda's interrogation -- especially about Amanda?

When the police stormed out to arrest Patrick in the middle of the night, he was at home, where he had slept every night since the crime was committed. In other words, they had no evidence he was planning to leave town. What was the rush?
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Welcome to the boards, Mary.


Considering that Lumumba owned a night club, I can not see that this 1st rule of night interrogations adds much. As a night shift worker for the past (almost) 10 years, I can assure you that a night interrogation to someone accustomed to the night shift hours would be, reasonably, no different from that of an interrogation during the daylight hours for a dayshift worker. In fact, the most disorienting manner of interrogation for a night-shifter would be to call him/her in at, say, 10am (approximately equivalent to a dayshifter's midnight).

I would like to further add that it was Amanda and Raffaele's decision to go to the Questra as late as they did - it was not as you have presented where the Police rounded them up and began the interrogation late. In fact, we have discussed this in the past few days and came to the conclusion (I believe we did, anyway) that Raffaele was initially called early in the evening (guestimations were around 5 or 6pm), a time they were most available given their school schedules. It wasn't until the Polizia suspected they had been blown off to eat pizza that the duo were again called. Hardly an attempt to disorient the duo on the part of the Polizia.


ETA: I'm unaware of what time, exactly, Lumumba was taken into custody. Do you have a cite so we can more accurately discuss this? Just off hand, I speculate that Lumumba would have been arrested as soon as Amanda made her accusation. While the Polizia could have waited because Lumumba had not attempted to flee previously, they couldn't assume this risk given what Amanda is purported to have claimed in the interrogation in regards to Lumumba. This was a vicious killing, to have waited after receiving the accusation of a supposed eyewitness would have been to invite public outrage.
 
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