Was Dick Oliver confused about what he heard on 9/11

carlitos said:
If I find the time and create the infrastructure, will all posters expending effort replying to jammonius consider changing gears and expending more or less similar effort in tutoring underprivileged children in Math, Reading and the Sciences? We are wasting a lot of brainpower here, people.
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I'm sorry. Under the conditions of my parole I cannot help you... If however you need help in tutoring overprivileged undergrad coeds then I'm your man!!!

Giggidy
 
Oystein said:
I have no program, but I manually transcribed part of what was said - my choice, of course:

At 1:52:
Dick: „We have no idea of what happened, but we did hear of what sounded like, uh, sounded like an aircraft, and then a tremendous boom. I don't know whether we can confirm this was an aircraft or not. David, what did you hear? What would you say you heard? This is our camera man Dave Stollick (?)“
David: „Incredible explosion, very very loud“
Dick: „How about you, hun?“
Woman: „Sounded like a bomb“
Dick: „Well it could be, could be something internal as well. There are pieces of the superstructure of the WTC sticking out, but a lot going in. As I said, this appears to be about the 100th floor of the south tower of the WTC“
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Your choice of what to quote and what to leave out does not result in an adequate basis for discussion, to put the matter in neutral, non-accusatory terms, as is my preference in posting.

Here, then, is a supplemental manual transcription going from 0:48 up to 2:40 which is all I have time for at present that might facilitate a more complete discussion:

0:48 Anchor, Jim Ryan, says "crashed" or, perhaps, "Beth", as between the two, "crashed" is more likely.

0:49-0:57 Dick Oliver (DO): Jim, just a few moments ago something believed to be a plane crashed into the South Tower of the World Trade Center.

0:57-1:07 DO: I just saw flames inside you could see the smoke coming out of the tower, we have no idea what it was. It was a tremendous boom just a few moments ago.

So, for starters, I think a significant new addition, consisting in what Oliver actually said from the beginning of his part in this video makes it clear that he did not see or hear a plane.

That is my viewpoint on what Oliver said, as manually transcribed above.

One other factor here and that is the limit of this kind of manual transcription. First of all, I have not included some "ahs" and similar expressions; and, secondly, the transcription does not convey the voice intonation that varies from sentence to sentence and sometimes from word to word that conveys, alternately the discernible impression of when Oliver is sayiing something he is more certain about versus things he has doubt about.

In my opinion, use of that sort of interpretation, to which the word "nuance" might reasonably attach itself, lends credence to the words he used that "something believed to be a plane". When those words are considered in conjunction with intonation, it is clear that he is not saying he believed it was a plane.

That is an objective claim, Oystein.

1:08-1:30 DO continues: "You could hear around me emergency vehicles heading towards the scene. Now this could have been an aircraft or it could have been something internal. It appears to be something coming from the outside due to the nature of the opening. On about the 100th floor of the South Tower of the World Trade Center.

Here, again, a clear statement that not only shows his ambivalence about the plane possibility, but also broadens the issue to implicitly include a missile because of his use of the phrase "It appears to be something coming from the outside...". Don't forget in all of this that had it been a jetliner, the sound would have been distinctive enough for him to have either said so or mentioned the possibility.

He does neither.

What is now a matter of record is that the sound has nowhere been connected to the sound of a jetliner.

This is a crucial, objective, observation.

1:30-1:38 DO continues: "Ah, police vehicles and fire vehicles are zipping by me here. We just have no idea.

So, yet again, Oliver confirms he does not know what hit the WTC. That has been his position from the outset of the first video, the 1:16 one, through and including this second one, up to the point of the 1:38 mark of it.

That is an objective observation.

1:38-1:51 DO continues: "To the south of the tower we see some particles also some gray smoke." [1:44+/-, what appears to be paper can be seen floating about. This was just like the second hit that produced a cloud of paper, consistent, of course, with a pyrotechnical device.] "Now the smoke coming out of the opening appears to be black smoke this would appear to indicate things are burning inside.

The above is indicative of the fact that no evidence of a plane crash is even seen, based on that commentary.

1:52-2:06 DO continues: "We have no idea of what happened. But we did hear what sounded like, sounded like an aircraft ah and then a tremendous boom. Now I don't know whether we could confirm that was an aircraft or not."

Now for the first time, Oliver tentatively, hesitantly, and indefinitely connects the sound he heard to an aircraft, but not a jet. Looked at objectively, one can latch onto that phrase for some indication of how he considered whether or not he heard an aircraft with the outcome being that he does not know whether he heard an aircraft.

The objective conclusion as to what he said and what he meant is that he does not know if he heard an aircraft or not.

2:07-2:10 DO continues: "David what did you hear? What would you say you heard? This is our camerman David Stollick (sp?)"

2:10-2:12 David Stollick: "Incredible explosion, very, very loud."

That is very signficant. It is to be recalled that the cameraman, back in the first video, initially said "sounded like a plane crash" and then later in the 1:16 video said "it was just an explosion."

Now, in this new video segment, we now know that he has resolved his previously expressed differing viewpooint in favor of the explosion viewpoint.

That is an objective observation.

Posters, these initial, unbiased (by the psyop) witnesses are clearly establishing that there was no plane, by which is meant, no big widebody jet involved. Pure and simple.

2:13-14 DO continues: "How about you hun?"

2:14-15-Then we hear from "hun": "Sounded like a bomb."

Posters here should have no objective difficulty in acknowledging this witness does not support the claim a jetliner was involved and, like most other initial reports, confirms merely an explosion. Objectivity demands admission of that.

2:15- DO continues: "Well it could be it could be something in-in internal as well. There are pieces of the superstructure sticking out but a lot going in. As I said, this appears to be about the 100th floor of the South Tower of the World Trade Center. I hope we could get some further information from the news room up there Jim.

I will pause here in the transcription process and resume in a later post.

Clearly, however, a lot of information that had not previously been mentioned has been added in transcription form. I hope this will facilitate reasoned discussion.

At 5:35:
Dick: „And I did hear some kind of a screech or some kind of a wail before a tremendous boom so uhhh I first thought it was a plane“
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That statement might be considered consistent with Oliver leaning toward the plane explanation at this time. Keep in mind, however, that the process of "suggestion" had already begun because Ryan and Oliver discussed that possibility after the 2:40 mark, where I left off and before the 5:35 mark.

Indeed, at the 3:33 mark, Oliver "leans in favor of an internal" source for the explosion.

I am astonished that no mention of that was made as the failure to do so cannot be considered consistent with objectivity in my view.

Let me be clear:

I do not consider this discussion as being one of who is right and who is wrong. Please understand that. I consider this discussion to be an exercise in furtherance of an objective understanding of this crucial piece of video information.

Around 6:40
Dick: „Excuse me sir, did you see what happened?“
First passerbyer: „Yeah I saw something, and like Bamm
Dick: „Did you see anyhing hit the building?“
First passerbyer: (nods) „That was the boom“
Dick: „Something hit the building?“
First passerbyer: „Yeah!“

Around 7:00
Second passerbyer explains she was on a fast train when she heard an explosion. She asserts it came from the inside, but then again, she was on a train then.

From 8:00
Rosa Cardona Rivera
„I'm at 99 Hudson Street and I was standing outside actually on the side of the building [14th floor] smoking a cigarette and I hear a plane and I don't usually see planes in this area, then all of a sudden I saw go right into the uhh to the WTC, to the building.“
„So you saw a plane crash into the side of the WTC?“
RCR: „Yes sir. … It was a big plane“
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Actually, little of what Dick Oliver says is supportive of no plane. We should not take his reasoning and interpretation as his observations. Here is ALL that Dick Oliver observed, as related in this clip:
  • "There are pieces of the superstructure of the WTC sticking out, but a lot going in."
  • "we did hear of what sounded like, uh, sounded like an aircraft, and then a tremendous boom"
  • "I did hear some kind of a screech or some kind of a wail before a tremendous boom"
  • At one point he explains that he sees no plane or parts thereof (I did not transcribe that part)
Everything else he says is not observation, but interpretation, and he is simply careful there not to rule anything out until one interpretation is confirmed.
Three of the four obeservations point to YES plane, the fourth points to nothing really, as Oliver's expectation that a plane should be seen sticking out of the fassade is a layman's expectation and just wrong.


David Stollick (??) gets to say exactly one sentence:
  • "Incredible explosion, very very loud"
We must note that he says nothing at all that points to NO plane, and he says nothing that points to YES plane. His description is in line with ANY hypothesis advanced by anyone.


False. He reports a "boom" (everybody does, but confirms Dick's two question "Did you see anything hit the building?" with a nod and a "yeah".


When considering her testimony, it is important to keep in mind where she was when the boom occurred: ON THE TRAIN. We don't know if the train was moving and noisy, or if the doors were closed or open. But we know one thing: A train has a roof. It is in most cases hard, if not impossible, to see the top of a 110 floor skyskraper from inside a train. I think we can safely discard her testimony. Yes, she did observe things coming out of the tower well after the crash, but that is to be expect in any of the hypothesis we are considering here. Her observation is merely of things coming out of the building, all else she says is her (uninformed, because she could not witness the event from inside a train) interpretation.


Jim Ryan is not an eyewitness.


Most of what Dick Oliver says is supportive of YES plane, see above



Rosa Cardona Rivera. If any words at all were spoken with diligent clearness, it was her name.



I hope you do not try to pass this by as either your interpretation, or an argument? She is not new to the world of 9/11 precisely she is one of the first eyewitnesses on record! If this quib of yours is not rhetoric, nothing is!


FALSE, and grossly so. Please listen carefully to 8:00:
"I'm at 99 Hudson Street and I was standing outside actually on the side of the building [14th floor] smoking a cigarette and I hear a plane"



Obvious rhetoric based on a false assertion.



She points out later in the video that she was NOT at street level, but on a sort of balcony on the 14th floor. If you have ever been to the 14th floor of a building, you know how what you can see from there may differ vastly from what you can see at street level.
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I'm not willing to comment on the large segment contained in the above segment because it skips too much. I think we need a more complete transcript in order to do that.

I will continue in a subsequent post, but probably not until tomorrow, with a transcription from and after the 2:40 mark, unless someone else is willing to do a further segment that we can all mutually rely on first.

Thanks
 
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jammonious. You keep using the term "We" when absolutely nobody, including the lurkers that you yourself invited to comment in the thread that shall not be named, agrees. There is no "We". There is only you and the voices in your own head agreeing with you. Seek help before you get all slingblade like on your neighbors and friends.
 
Sam.I.Am said:
jammonious. You keep using the term "We" when absolutely nobody, including the lurkers that you yourself invited to comment in the thread that shall not be named, agrees. There is no "We". There is only you and the voices in your own head agreeing with you. Seek help before you get all slingblade like on your neighbors and friends.
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I agree,there is no ''we''.Jammonious,why did you start believing in this insane no-plane idea? Do you really believe it?
 
Q: Why don't YOU believe the official version of events on 9/11?

Truther: Because Dick Oliver was confused about what had happened.

:rolleyes:
 
jammonius said:
Your choice of what to quote and what to leave out does not result in an adequate basis for discussion,
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Oh, the irony.

By what logic do you decide that the people that didn't see the plane trump the people that did? Lots of people saw a plane.

It was visible for only a few seconds and only from about 1/3rd of the compass and only if you were outdoors and only if you have an unobstructed view and happen to be looking in the right direction. If you had your Walkman on and cranked up you might not hear the jet at all.

Your "hologram thingy" blob whatever had to weigh about 140 tons and be traveling at about 500MPH in order to make the towers sway as they did and generate the seismic shock wave that was recorded by two independent systems.

How does your "hologram thingy" blob whatever make the sounds of a jet running flat-out at about 1,000 ft along the length of Manhattan?

How does your "hologram thingy" blob whatever make a 100 million dollar plane and the passengers disappear.

How does your "hologram thingy" blob whatever spew avaiation fuel all over and set the tower afire?

How does your "hologram thingy" blob whatever spread aircraft debris about lower Manhattan that is taken into custody within minutes of the collision and is shown to match Flight 11 and 175?
 
Posters / Lurkers, just a reminder:

In light of recently submitted evidence we can now answer these questions absolutely and enter them into the record as fact:

"What Fox reporter Dick Oliver saw and heard on 9/11 (no plane)"

Incorrect. From his vantage point on Park Row near City Hall, Mr Oliver's view of WTC 1 and 2 was obscured by buildings and trees in full bloom. So it is a fact that he didn't see a plane as expected, but he certainly heard one.

Dick Oliver said:
At first I thought it was a plane
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"Was Dick Oliver confused about what he heard on 9/11"

Yes, apparently he was. While his first impression was correct, he later speculated about another bombing, a missile attack and drone aircraft. Please note that at no time does Mr. Oliver speculate on the existence of the Death Star, although he's heard to use the word "do" at times. What it all boils down to is Mr. Oliver, much like the rest of us, was trying to make sense of the chaos. The only difference being most of us didn't broadcast our initial impressions over a live microphone as the events unfolded.

We can put this one to bed.
 
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Posters/Lurkers/ a more just reminder:

Ever have the feeling of being manipulated? :(

Well, for ready reference and ease of independent assessment, there are a number of sources one can refer to in order to make a determination about what Dick Oliver saw and heard in connection with the explosion seen,heard and captured on a 1:16 video on 9/11 at about 8:46AM, at the North Tower of the World Trade Center in NYC.

The video can be found at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVEmAWaKoYQ

As to it, a controversy raged for about 3 weeks during which a number of posters argued until they were blue in the face that a jetliner could be heard, despite the fact that the camera that recorded a noisy sound for 6 seconds was sitting atop two intersecting subway lines and literally right next to two buses.

You have to be a member to access the now closed and hidden thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171082

This current thread also pertains to the 1:16 video.

A new addition to this thread is a new video segment lasting some 10minutes that continues to supply information.

Lurkers are cordially invited to review the posts in this thread, along with the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaQMi...layer_embedded

As yet, we do not have still images from the 10minute video or a complete transcript.

It would appear the discussion has shifted away from claims a jetliner can be heard, as per my interpretation of the posts in this thread. If so, it is high time for that to have happened, in my opinion, as the claim a jetliner could be heard in the 1:16 video is untenable, again, in my opinion.

This thread contains some excerpts from the new 10minute video, of which the following are examples quoted by two different posters, Oystein and yours truly. It might be helpful to see the excerpts as compiled by two different posters, having opposing viewpoints:

First, Oystein's quotes:

At 1:52:
Dick: „We have no idea of what happened, but we did hear of what sounded like, uh, sounded like an aircraft, and then a tremendous boom. I don't know whether we can confirm this was an aircraft or not. David, what did you hear? What would you say you heard? This is our camera man Dave Stollick (?)“
David: „Incredible explosion, very very loud“
Dick: „How about you, hun?“
Woman: „Sounded like a bomb“
Dick: „Well it could be, could be something internal as well. There are pieces of the superstructure of the WTC sticking out, but a lot going in. As I said, this appears to be about the 100th floor of the south tower of the WTC“

At 5:35:
Dick: „And I did hear some kind of a screech or some kind of a wail before a tremendous boom so uhhh I first thought it was a plane“

Around 6:40
Dick: „Excuse me sir, did you see what happened?“
First passerbyer: „Yeah I saw something, and like Bamm
Dick: „Did you see anyhing hit the building?“
First passerbyer: (nods) „That was the boom“
Dick: „Something hit the building?“
First passerbyer: „Yeah!“

Around 7:00
Second passerbyer explains she was on a fast train when she heard an explosion. She asserts it came from the inside, but then again, she was on a train then.

From 8:00
Rosa Cardona Rivera
„I'm at 99 Hudson Street and I was standing outside actually on the side of the building [14th floor] smoking a cigarette and I hear a plane and I don't usually see planes in this area, then all of a sudden I saw go right into the uhh to the WTC, to the building.“
„So you saw a plane crash into the side of the WTC?“
RCR: „Yes sir. … It was a big plane“

Yours truly's quotes:

0:48 Anchor, Jim Ryan, says "crashed" or, perhaps, "Beth", as between the two, "crashed" is more likely.

0:49-0:57 Dick Oliver (DO): Jim, just a few moments ago something believed to be a plane crashed into the South Tower of the World Trade Center.

0:57-1:07 DO: I just saw flames inside you could see the smoke coming out of the tower, we have no idea what it was. It was a tremendous boom just a few moments ago.

1:08-1:30 DO continues: "You could hear around me emergency vehicles heading towards the scene. Now this could have been an aircraft or it could have been something internal. It appears to be something coming from the outside due to the nature of the opening. On about the 100th floor of the South Tower of the World Trade Center.

1:30-1:38 DO continues: "Ah, police vehicles and fire vehicles are zipping by me here. We just have no idea.

1:38-1:51 DO continues: "To the south of the tower we see some particles also some gray smoke." [1:44+/-, what appears to be paper can be seen floating about. This was just like the second hit that produced a cloud of paper, consistent, of course, with a pyrotechnical device.] "Now the smoke coming out of the opening appears to be black smoke this would appear to indicate things are burning inside.

1:52-2:06 DO continues: "We have no idea of what happened. But we did hear what sounded like, sounded like an aircraft ah and then a tremendous boom. Now I don't know whether we could confirm that was an aircraft or not."

2:07-2:10 DO continues: "David what did you hear? What would you say you heard? This is our camerman David Stollick (sp?)"

2:10-2:12 David Stollick: "Incredible explosion, very, very loud."
2:13-14 DO continues: "How about you hun?"

2:14-15-Then we hear from "hun": "Sounded like a bomb."

2:13-14 DO continues: "How about you hun?"

2:14-15-Then we hear from "hun": "Sounded like a bomb."

2:15-2:40- DO continues: "Well it could be it could be something in-in internal as well. There are pieces of the superstructure sticking out but a lot going in. As I said, this appears to be about the 100th floor of the South Tower of the World Trade Center. I hope we could get some further information from the news room up there Jim.

If any of you have a way of transcribing more of the video, and can post the full transcript, that would be helpful. Perhaps there are program thingys that allow that to be easily done?

Because people in the video say what they say in the manner in which they say it, each person is encouraged to review and come to their own conclusions about the content of both videos.

all the best
 
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Jam. The evidence of planes crashing into the WTC is incontrovertible according to ANY sane standard of evidence. Your word salad posts, simple incredulity, and baseless opinions are interesting, but in the end can be, and have been, dismissed as irrational.

There really isn't much more to say; you need a new hobby.
 
jammonius said:
Posters/Lurkers/ a more just reminder:

Ever have the feeling of being manipulated? :(
Click to expand...

Yes. Every time I read your sophistic word salads.

jammonius said:
...
As to it, a controversy raged for about 3 weeks during which a number of posters argued until they were blue in the face that a jetliner could be heard, despite the fact that the camera that recorded a noisy sound for 6 seconds was sitting atop two intersecting subway lines and literally right next to two buses.
Click to expand...

This impression, shared by all posters and several lurkers who came forward, is corroborated by Dick Oliver himself:

jammonius said:
...
At 1:52:
Dick: „We have no idea of what happened, but we did hear of what sounded like, uh, sounded like an aircraft, and then a tremendous boom. ...

At 5:35:
Dick: „And I did hear some kind of a screech or some kind of a wail before a tremendous boom so uhhh I first thought it was a plane“

...
Click to expand...

I hope no one suggests that Dick Oliver, who certainly knows what buses and subway trains sound like in New York, would ascribe such sounds to a plane and make a connection to the BOOM at the WTC. If you presume that Oliver could be so very wrong about what he heard, then you must drop his testimony in its entirety at once.
Either, Dick Oliver's first-hand testimony can be trusted, then you must accept that he heard a something that sounded like a plane, and heard it coming from the general direction of a path through the air at some 1000ft above ground leading to the tower, or you do not trust his recollection, then there is nothing you can conclude from it at all.

It takes serious ammounts of deluded or malevolent rationalization to keep up the silly idea that what sounded like a plane in the 1:16 video could be a bus or a train.
It is not.
This much can be objectively concluded from the two videos we are currently discussing.
 
Well, this is getting tiresome. There was a plane. It was American Airlines Flight 11 and it had 92 people on it. 87 of them were innocent people trying to go about their day, and who were about to die a very quick death after a terrifying hi-jacking. In the first Oliver video we hear the last 6 seconds of their lives, ending in a brutal crash that at least some of them saw coming. In the WTC complex the last 6 seconds of sanity are counting down. For the police, firemen, and other first responders, they had to run into a surreal war zone everyone else was desperately trying to run out of.

jammonius can lay no claim to sympathy for victims he doesn't believe exist. He certainly can lay no claim to sympathy for groups he believes were "in on it". His position defends misguided fanatical killers. His play for attention is childish and insulting, and his posts are nothing more than endless dodging and word sewage.

Really, there isn't much more to say. :(
 
Is there ANYBODY reading these threads who agrees with Jammonius? I'm sure Jam would love to hear from you.

Anybody?
 
Anyone else get the feeling Jammonius views himself as a great teacher, lecturing us poor ignorant pupils?

I was in a course with an instructor like Jammonius once. Not a professor, just a temp.

Always holier-than-thou (academically speaking) and yet appallingly ignorant of the most basic physics.

Serious superiority complex.

She taught (well, tried to) internal combustion engine fundamentals. Her notes were cribbed from HowStuffWorks.com.

By the end of term, we'd had enough of her attitude and her obvious ignorance of the subject she was preaching.

We had her removed from a teaching position.

Nor was she the first such instance in the Engineering department at my university.

Jammonius: Stop preaching. You are not smarter than us, you are not better than us, and you do not get special dispensation to avoid doing physics, math, fact-checking or verification of your asinine hypotheses.

Put up, or shut up.
 
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