No-Touch Knockouts - what's the deal?

[Hannibal]

Depends on what you're doing with your toes and/or tongue.

Eating them with sauce and gravy by the looks of things

 

[Monketi Ghost]

I assume you mean this one...

*snip*

That's the one! Minus what's before the fight, and only from the audience, not the in-dojo camera angle.

 

[Think_Tank]

Great videos! Now all we need is a test of George Dillman in the same way that the other "master" had his arse handed to him was tested.

Luigi makes a great video, but we need someone with a bit more power.

Hmmm...

 

[Delvo]

How do the fans of those televangelists figure that getting "slain in the spirit" is supposed to be a good thing? Usually "in the spirit" means that something that would ordinarily happen to or be done by a body (such as, in this case, getting violently killed) is happening to or being done by a soul instead, but in standard Christian theology, souls don't get destroyed. And even if they could, I don't see how they'd think that having your soul violently killed by a televangelist would be good, or exactly what they'd think is going on when the body gets up later on with no soul in it anymore.

So they apparently must mean "spirit" to indicate not the soul but something else, like the conscious mind, and/or mean "slay" as a second metaphor, for something other than violent killing. But I still can't get any meaning for the phrase that says anything about what's supposed to happen from a religious perspective, a perspective beyond what's literally supposed to happen: loss of consciousness. But there has to be another element to it, some religious thing that happens when you lose consciousness this way, because nobody thinks of loss of consciousness as inherently good all by itself..

 

[TraneWreck]

In martial arts, one of the goofiest proponents of the "no-touch knockout" woo is George Dillman. Here's a short video on what happened when Dillman's star student tried this nonsense on a skeptic and Dillman's lame attempt to rationalize the results away



The sad thing is that I think he has actually fooled himself into believing his own "chi whammy" nonsense. And I used to respect this man...

That was perfectly made segment. I like how it begins by showing the man in all his majesty, throwing people around with his ninja voodoo. They show him in the best light possible.

...then the skeptic. After the little chemist stands up to the chi, they just let the fool babble. What a badass technique--doesn't work if your tongue is in the right place.

I honestly thought the video was going to be one of those silly pieces that ends with, "Skeptics refuse to believe, but could all these people just make it up?" But they really drop the hammer. Nice.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Is it just me or does "chi" always sink to the belly?

That's cheese

 

[Hellbound]

Browsed through the thread and didn't see this mentioned, and I'm at work so can't see the video.

That said,

With the people who seem to experience something "more" mentally, is there any correlation between how long they were standing before the "hit" and whether or not they experienced something?

Most people, when standing for a bit of time, will lock their knees. THis takes strain off the muscles, and makes it easier to stand. What most people don't realize is that this can restrict blood flow in the legs, causing blood to pool in the lower leg and lowering blood pressure above the waist. Being in the military (which often requires long periods of standing), this is one of the things they drill into us: don't lock your knees, keep them slightly bent. I've seen people pass out in a formation just from this effect. Almost garaunteed, if you have a group of more than a hundred or so, and stand for very long (more than 30 minutes or so), someone will fall out. Sometimes it happens quick (seen a couple go in under 10 minutes). And this is without any additional stimuli.

Now, a lack of oxygen to the brain caused by reduced blood flow could explain a lot of the odd sensations some people report. If they're standing with knees locked, already limiting blood flow, in a stressful situation (medically speaking-they expect somethig to happen, so heart rate will elevate, etc), the reaction to any stimuli (they are expecting a hit of some sort, so the sound of a swing or the movement of air could tell them it's about to hit) could cause a boost from adrenaline (a startle effect). One of the things this will do is dilate the blood vessels, which makes the effect of resticted blood flow from standing that much worse, adn could trigger a faint.

Now, I am not a doctor (I was trained as a medic in the Army), and this is just supposition, but it might be something worth looking into. There could be some sort of physiological basis here, as well. Anyone with more knowledge that could speak to this?

 

[Pup]

With the people who seem to experience something "more" mentally, is there any correlation between how long they were standing before the "hit" and whether or not they experienced something?

Along those same lines, I notice that one technique in the videos is to hold the person's head still with the left hand and tap the person's jawline with the right hand, at about the same place where you check someone's pulse.

This was done to the reporter in that one video, and she obviously didn't react with more than annoyance, but for someone who already is primed to react, is there something there, anatomically, that might cause a physical sensation? The carotid artery is there, obviously. Is disrupting blood flow just for the length of tap enough to cause some kind of physical sensation, or is there something else in that area?

Edited to add: It looked like the woman in yellow, in the OP's video compilation, was accessing this same area with a one-handed technique.

Obviously it wouldn't explain the no-touch knock-downs, but I wonder if it's sometimes used as a training technique when working people up to the no-touch kind. (I mean working up the fallers, not the pushers.)

The no-touch version is the kind of thing I'd love to experience myself, just from curiosity, but I always have no luck on these kinds of things--I never feel anything. Still, it would be cool for someone to try and see if it would work.

 

[Hellbound]

Pup,

I've seen a trick before involving tapping on the carotid artery, and that one is physiological. There was something done to prime the person beforehand (can't recall what), but then a rap on the carotid would cause a faint. It only takes a few seconds for someone to pass out from a lack of blood to the brain, and the momentary lapse from a rap to the artery is enough.

In fact, that trick is one we used to do on the playground in elementary school. Probably not the brightest thing in the world to be doing. But so far there's *twitch* there's *twitch* there's *twitch* been no ill effects

 

[cgordon]

Having been on the receiving end of a few (attempted) 'no touch' KOs, and having studied the methodology a bit, and having 35+ years of combatives (classical and modern MA, including military CQC), my opinion is that no-touch only works if the recipient is very suggestible or cooperative.

There _might_ be something to the carotid body thing Hellboud refers to, but even when docs use the carotid massage thing to relieve tachycardia (haven't been in the medical field for 20 some years, do they still use that?), it's not instant, and not foolproof.

I _suppose_ someone very skilled, with a non-resisting recipient _might_ be able to effect something, but am doubtful.

Generally speaking, a genuine KO relies on providing enough impact force to slosh the brain against the inside of the skull. That one works pretty well, actually, but it's hardly a no-touch thing.

 

[Hellbound]

Having been on the receiving end of a few (attempted) 'no touch' KOs, and having studied the methodology a bit, and having 35+ years of combatives (classical and modern MA, including military CQC), my opinion is that no-touch only works if the recipient is very suggestible or cooperative.

There _might_ be something to the carotid body thing Hellboud refers to, but even when docs use the carotid massage thing to relieve tachycardia (haven't been in the medical field for 20 some years, do they still use that?), it's not instant, and not foolproof.

I _suppose_ someone very skilled, with a non-resisting recipient _might_ be able to effect something, but am doubtful.

Generally speaking, a genuine KO relies on providing enough impact force to slosh the brain against the inside of the skull. That one works pretty well, actually, but it's hardly a no-touch thing.

Well, the playground trick had more to it. There was something the person did beforehand, but I can't recall what now. I'm tempted to say it was somethign like holding their breath or pushing on a wall (that's been none-of-your-business years ago, so I can't remember exactly). In any case, the "prep" would reduce the free oxygen in the blood, which is why it would work (I would suppose).

Likewise, I wonder if locking knees, stress, and the adrenaline rush might not play similar roles in the supposed "no-touch" knock outs.

 

[rsaavedra]

I've already tested this. It works beautifully as long as you're a sneaky bastard. That isn't really the point.

How isn't it the point? What do you mean it works beautiful? Why no videos showing the blindfolded attempts then?

How about blindfolding the person and placing some headphones with loud enough white noise so that they can't hear you at all. If your technique works without touching them in such conditions, then you might have a case for further inquiry. Otherwise, seems very much similar to hypnosis and suggestion and all that has been mentioned here.

 

[Folly]

Really? That's awesome. Small world, or maybe divine intervention again. I'm doing my next demo there May 3rd, I'm not sure if it's public but if you're interested I'll see. I was definitely short of willing guinea pigs last time, as you can see from my 3 poor volunteers. It's a ton of fun, though, unlike those dry 'legit' chi demos. I'll even do requests.

I'm around on May 3rd. If you don't mind having someone who's going to talk about the subject's point of view afterward on here, I'm interested.

 

[chainlink]

Generally speaking, a genuine KO relies on providing enough impact force to slosh the brain against the inside of the skull. That one works pretty well, actually, but it's hardly a no-touch thing.

There is also the "glass jaw" syndrome that some otherwise good boxers suffer from, in which a relatively light tap to the jaw will leave a person stunned or even knocked out. The mechanism for this knockout effect is thought to be caused by the pinching of a nerve (rather than from sudden brain acceleration), but I don't know if there has been any actual research on how exactly this mechanism functions. The other question is why the strength of a person's "chin" can vary so much from one person to another. If science can discover this, maybe in the future weak-jawed boxers will be undergoing jaw surgery to make them knockout-proof.

 

[Paul2]

How isn't it the point? What do you mean it works beautiful? Why no videos showing the blindfolded attempts then?

How about blindfolding the person and placing some headphones with loud enough white noise so that they can't hear you at all. If your technique works without touching them in such conditions, then you might have a case for further inquiry. Otherwise, seems very much similar to hypnosis and suggestion and all that has been mentioned here.

I think clarifies things nicely. First, let's establish or concede that there's nothing paranormal going on. After that, the explanation for the effect would have to be some form of suggestion, hypnosis, etc., the details of which would be difficult to specify on this blog, I think.

 

[rsaavedra]

First, let's establish or concede that there's nothing paranormal going on.

Point taken. Had thought that the OP was heading in another direction. Hadn't read all of his posts in detail.

 

[Paul2]

Point taken. Had thought that the OP was heading in another direction. Hadn't read all of his posts in detail.

Me too, but I was getting an nagging feeling, nothing I could really put my finger on, that made me think that the paranormal issue should be clarified, and I thought your post started that ball rolling nicely.

 

[Uncayimmy]

I'll chime in to say that I'm at a loss as to what this thread is about.

 

[Trent Wray]

Browsed through the thread and didn't see this mentioned, and I'm at work so can't see the video.

That said,

With the people who seem to experience something "more" mentally, is there any correlation between how long they were standing before the "hit" and whether or not they experienced something?

Most people, when standing for a bit of time, will lock their knees. THis takes strain off the muscles, and makes it easier to stand. What most people don't realize is that this can restrict blood flow in the legs, causing blood to pool in the lower leg and lowering blood pressure above the waist. Being in the military (which often requires long periods of standing), this is one of the things they drill into us: don't lock your knees, keep them slightly bent. I've seen people pass out in a formation just from this effect. Almost garaunteed, if you have a group of more than a hundred or so, and stand for very long (more than 30 minutes or so), someone will fall out. Sometimes it happens quick (seen a couple go in under 10 minutes). And this is without any additional stimuli.

Now, a lack of oxygen to the brain caused by reduced blood flow could explain a lot of the odd sensations some people report. If they're standing with knees locked, already limiting blood flow, in a stressful situation (medically speaking-they expect somethig to happen, so heart rate will elevate, etc), the reaction to any stimuli (they are expecting a hit of some sort, so the sound of a swing or the movement of air could tell them it's about to hit) could cause a boost from adrenaline (a startle effect). One of the things this will do is dilate the blood vessels, which makes the effect of resticted blood flow from standing that much worse, adn could trigger a faint.

Now, I am not a doctor (I was trained as a medic in the Army), and this is just supposition, but it might be something worth looking into. There could be some sort of physiological basis here, as well. Anyone with more knowledge that could speak to this?

What happens to the soldiers standing at attention too long is essentially vasovagal syncope. And I saw it myself in the military as well, esp. with the boys from Alaska (LOL)

There _might_ be something to the carotid body thing Hellboud refers to, but even when docs use the carotid massage thing to relieve tachycardia (haven't been in the medical field for 20 some years, do they still use that?), it's not instant, and not foolproof.

Yes, they still do vagal maneuvers.

It's kind of always been my opinion that what is happening to these people is an ideomotor response due to anticipation and for those who genuinely experience some kind of syncopal episode, a vasovagal response. One way to tell would be to examine their heart rate and blood pressure before, during, and after ... and check for signs of light sweatiness, or perhaps diaphoresis and pale complexion during the fall and after, etc.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Can anyone find a mirror of radkichallenge.mov ? that was my favorite video on this subject