Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Dan O. said:
It will be several times the velocity that the rock had once it had entered the room. The mechanical leverage of pushing on the shutter near the hinge provides the first multiplier. The bellows effect of the large shutter area drawing air through the smaller opening provides another multiplier. The initial velocity of the rock will also be much higher before it hits the shutter than after.

It should be possible to compute the possible trajectories that would get the glass fragments to the rug in front of the bed. That would give an estimate on how much acceleration would have been required.
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Kestrel also raised this, and other posters have already addressed the generality of the proposition. Once again this seems to be "a thing that might have some bearing in some possible universe": and that seems to be enough for you. But it is not enough for me. If this is actually important then give us some proper evidence in support of the idea that the wind blew the glass across the room. This does not strike me as plausible but that is merely an intuitive response: sometimes the reality is counter intuitive. I do not believe that is often true and I do not believe it is in this case because other posters have already raised objections which sound right to me. But if you can show facts which support your contention and which answer what has been said then we will look at them. Insinuation and ignoring points made against your proposition is still not good enough, however
 
Fulcanelli said:
No, it's you people that are deluded if you believe that. It was the mountain of evidence that convicted them, not any one big ticket item. The problem with you people is that you project...you think the knife and clasp are the most important and therefore assume the court believes the same. It's a complex world and in the real world, context is taken into account, that means everything, not this or that in isolation.
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Remove the kitchen knife and the bra clasp and tell me that you believe Amanda and Raffaele would have gone to trial for this crime.
 
Listen, remove the clasp and the knife and you still have a ton of evidence against them in comparison to say, the Scott Peterson case...and he was found guilty and is sitting on death row right now.
 
Fiona said:
It is the reality as you see it, Bruce Fisher. But I completely disagree. I very much doubt that the forensic evidence was the most important factor in the decision and this is a view I reached many, many pages ago. I cannot but be aware that those who believe AK and RS are innocent of this crime tend to believe as you do: and that it would be very useful for them if the rest of the evidence went away. But it won't. They are very minor parts of what makes this case what it is. For me the reality is that you could dispense with them entirely and the three would still have been convicted.
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Remove the clasp and the knife and tell me what evidence would have convicted them. This is very interesting that you actually believe this. They were going to have to release Raffaele and then just like magic they found the clasp. It's all they have.

The knife is a joke. I am amazed that people actually believe the knife story.
Are you aware that Raffaele continued to use the knife in the apartment after the murder? They had days to get rid of the knife but they decided to keep it and continue to use it in Raffaele's kitchen. Of course they felt the need to dispose of the other knife.

Knife and bra clasp. That's it. We can talk about pizza and brick walls and glass and Kermit's need to bring up Amanda's vibrator during a shoe print discussion but the fact remains, it's all about the clasp and the knife.

I know they didn't forget the clasp the first time. They just decided to store it in the cottage instead of an evidence bag.
 
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Bruce Fisher said:
Remove the clasp and the knife and tell me what evidence would have convicted them. This is very interesting that you actually believe this. They were going to have to release Raffaele and then just like magic they found the clasp. It's all they have.

The knife is a joke. I am amazed that people actually believe the knife story.
Are you aware that Raffaele continued to use the knife in the apartment after the murder? They had days to get rid of the knife but they decided to keep it and continue to use it in Raffaele's kitchen. Of course they felt the need to dispose of the other knife.

Knife and bra clasp. That's it. We can talk about pizza and brick walls and glass and Kermit's need to bring up Amanda's vibrator during a shoe print discussion but the fact remains, it's all about the clasp and the knife.

I know they didn't forget the clasp the first time. They just decided to store it in the cottage instead of an evidence bag.
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Well we will have to differ:and we will see what happens at the appeal. But I will be very surprised if the defence focusses on those elements exclusively:and if they do then I think there is very little chance of overturning the conviction.
 
It is also interesting that you do not. I am interested in how you arrived at your figures of who believes what though. How did you? Are you counting all the judges who heard the evidence at each stage, for example? Are you saying they all made their decision on the basis of the bits of evidence you say are crucial? That is not my reading of the Micheli report and I will be surprised if it is the basis of the Massei report too
 
Fiona said:
Well we will have to differ:and we will see what happens at the appeal. But I will be very surprised if the defence focusses on those elements exclusively:and if they do then I think there is very little chance of overturning the conviction.
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We will have to have this discussion again after the appeal.
 
Unlike some here I have confidence in the Italian justice system. If they are acquitted on appeal I will be content. But if they are acquitted I think there will be much more than forensic argument underpinning that decision. I just don't see it as very important. But we will see
 
Fiona said:
It is also interesting that you do not. I am interested in how you arrived at your figures of who believes what though. How did you? Are you counting all the judges who heard the evidence at each stage, for example? Are you saying they all made their decision on the basis of the bits of evidence you say are crucial? That is not my reading of the Micheli report and I will be surprised if it is the basis of the Massei report too
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All of the people that you have mentioned would state that the evidence is strong so my statement is irrelevant. Amanda and Raffaele would have never been charged with murder without the clasp and the knife. List the mountain of evidence. You will find that it amounts to nothing more than to young people making confusing statements. That's not enough to put someone in prison for 30 years. Make a list removing the clasp and the knife. You will keep coming back to their statements, not physical evidence. There is no motive, no proof of them being there, no evidence whatsoever in the murder room. There is no mountain of evidence.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Remove the kitchen knife and the bra clasp and tell me that you believe Amanda and Raffaele would have gone to trial for this crime.
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Absolutely. We know this for certain since the original time of their custody was extended in early NOV 2007 on the basis of the severity of the attack and the strength of their statements when interviewed.

AFAIK, the only physical evidence at that point was the ME's report indicating multiple attackers.
 
By the way.... this whole wind from the window thing. Are we saying that, if I have some glass on the window sill and I fling the window open, the inrush of air will fling the glass in to the room? Surely any impact of this will be inconsequential.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Remove the clasp and the knife and tell me what evidence would have convicted them. This is very interesting that you actually believe this. They were going to have to release Raffaele and then just like magic they found the clasp. It's all they have.
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You're moving goalposts. Originally you simply asked if it would be brought to trial without knife and bra clasp.

The police investigators did not employ magic. Please provide any evidence that they did.

Bruce Fisher said:
The knife is a joke. I am amazed that people actually believe the knife story.
Are you aware that Raffaele continued to use the knife in the apartment after the murder? They had days to get rid of the knife but they decided to keep it and continue to use it in Raffaele's kitchen. Of course they felt the need to dispose of the other knife.
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Argument from incredulity. Raffaele also brought a flick knife with him to the Questura.

Bruce Fisher said:
Knife and bra clasp. That's it. We can talk about pizza and brick walls and glass and Kermit's need to bring up Amanda's vibrator during a shoe print discussion but the fact remains, it's all about the clasp and the knife.

I know they didn't forget the clasp the first time. They just decided to store it in the cottage instead of an evidence bag.
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That's not it. The motivations report will contain details of some of the mountain of evidence used in court to convict them.
 
Brice Fisher said:
The knife is a joke. I am amazed that people actually believe the knife story.
Are you aware that Raffaele continued to use the knife in the apartment after the murder? They had days to get rid of the knife but they decided to keep it and continue to use it in Raffaele's kitchen. Of course they felt the need to dispose of the other knife.
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Actually, he didn't. In fact, Raffaele said of the knife that he had never used it before. He stated that the only person who had ever used it was Amanda...to cut onions.
 
Fiona said:
Unlike some here I have confidence in the Italian justice system. If they are acquitted on appeal I will be content. But if they are acquitted I think there will be much more than forensic argument underpinning that decision. I just don't see it as very important. But we will see
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As long as Raffaele stays silent and Amanda keeps up the "imaginations" charade they will both remain behind bars. I have full confidence in the Italian justice system too.
 
shuttlt said:
By the way.... this whole wind from the window thing. Are we saying that, if I have some glass on the window sill and I fling the window open, the inrush of air will fling the glass in to the room? Surely any impact of this will be inconsequential.
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I never quite understood it either. Compared to someone clambering over the sill?
 
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