Put a Fork in her she's done! VfF

[Akhenaten]

Allow me to restate this, since evidently not enough people read it the first time:

Well, excuse me. I must have missed the election.

Congratulations, Boss of Everyone.

To be true skeptics, we should be trying to help her change her ways. I realize that this is a tall order, but I enjoy a challenge and I know I am not the only one.

my bolding


Don't start that nonsense.

If you are not up to it, then unsubscribe from this thread and save your energy for other topics where you can be of use.

No.

You are accomplishing precisely squat in here.

And?

 

[Robo Sapien]

As opposed to the incredible impact you are having?

Actually to be "true skeptics" we should analyse someone's claims with skepticism, scientific scrutiny and critical thinking.
Oh look, turns out that is what we're doing.

Anyway you were saying something about a Scotsman...?

At least I'm trying to help somebody, one that everybody else has condemned to be not worth helping. You've debunked her claims a thousand times over (and done a great job, I might add), but to continue doing so is redundant and wasteful.

And I have a hunch that Randi would disagree with your statement about skepticism. Analysis and critical thinking are the tools of skeptics, not the justification. The purpose is still to help people, otherwise we're just a bunch of nitpicking naysayers trying to claim the higher ground of rationality.

 

[Robo Sapien]

Well, excuse me. I must have missed the election.

Congratulations, Boss of Everyone.

Oh wow, sarcasm. How inventive.

 

[Trent Wray]

It's the Khidney of Seth™. Powerful magic.

Only invoked when dark forces from beyond the White Dwarf Star threaten the stabilty of the Phorum.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/209954b868f6786ce4.gif[/qimg]​

That is ******* awesome And I'm not khidding.

Allow me to restate this, since evidently not enough people read it the first time:

Skepticism is not about debunking, it is about learning and exploration. The more you argue with Anita, the more you compound the shame she will inevitably have to face, and thus you push her deeper into the recluse of this fantasy she has. That is counterproductive to the prime directive of skepticism. You have already debunked her, there is no point in continuing this circus.

To be true skeptics, we should be trying to help her change her ways. I realize that this is a tall order, but I enjoy a challenge and I know I am not the only one. If you are not up to it, then unsubscribe from this thread and save your energy for other topics where you can be of use. You are accomplishing precisely squat in here.

There is wisdom here, but I will disagree that "to be true skeptics" a skeptic should help her change her ways. No one owes her anything, regardless of whether they are a skeptic or woo or whatever. If someone wants to try to help her, that is completely up to them, on a "human" level. The JREF and others, imo, have done due diligence in paying for her meals. But whether or not someone wants to add a tip to the bill is up to each person. As Pure Agent said, to each their own

My personal op. is that her and many other "good people" are circling in a toilet bowl, but that is the meal that it has become. If you want to climb in, that is what you can expect. You won't clean the bowl and leave behind drinkable water I'm afraid. That would be "a miracle". Sadhatter has a good and simple plan I think .... LEAVE THE TOILET BOWL. All the pleading in the world won't get people to climb out if they don't want to or even to stop defending the crap filled waters they are soaking in. So just offer your advice, jiggle the handle and walk away

Otherwise, grab your swimsuit and some double ply

 

[Trent Wray]

At least I'm trying to help somebody, one that everybody else has condemned to be not worth helping. You've debunked her claims a thousand times over (and done a great job, I might add), but to continue doing so is redundant and wasteful.

And I have a hunch that Randi would disagree with your statement about skepticism. Analysis and critical thinking are the tools of skeptics, not the justification. The purpose is still to help people, otherwise we're just a bunch of nitpicking naysayers trying to claim the higher ground of rationality.

One more thing ... I think if you really want to try and help Anita, you should focus on Anita. She is the one throwing herself to the "meanies" over and over. Get her to stop doing that, and you've begun to solve everybody's problem.

If somehow you're able to convert her .... and she's still being hunted down for destruction .... then picking a fight with a "meanie" might be worth it. You know what I'm saying? Until then you're sort of fighting somewhat within your own camp. IMHO. But I don't disagree with you that she could possibly be helped. Just don't look at all the misdirection going on .... focus on the one causing the disease so to speak. I'm trying to help you out

 

[Robo Sapien]

There is wisdom here, but I will disagree that "to be true skeptics" a skeptic should help her change her ways. No one owes her anything, regardless of whether they are a skeptic or woo or whatever. If someone wants to try to help her, that is completely up to them, on a "human" level. The JREF and others, imo, have done due diligence in paying for her meals. But whether or not someone wants to add a tip to the bill is up to each person. As Pure Agent said, to each their own

My personal op. is that her and many other "good people" are circling in a toilet bowl, but that is the meal that it has become. If you want to climb in, that is what you can expect. You won't clean the bowl and leave behind drinkable water I'm afraid. That would be "a miracle". Sadhatter has a good and simple plan I think .... LEAVE THE TOILET BOWL. All the pleading in the world won't get people to climb out if they don't want to or even to stop defending the crap filled waters they are soaking in. So just offer your advice, jiggle the handle and walk away

Otherwise, grab your swimsuit and some double ply

Well said, I'm glad at least one person here can disagree without being vindictive about it. That was my whole point though, that if you aren't willing to try, then "leave the toilet," as you put it. Otherwise, folks are just going to get carpal tunnel from patting themselves on the back.

One more thing ... I think if you really want to try and help Anita, you should focus on Anita. She is the one throwing herself to the "meanies" over and over. Get her to stop doing that, and you've begun to solve everybody's problem.

If somehow you're able to convert her .... and she's still being hunted down for destruction .... then picking a fight with a "meanie" might be worth it. You know what I'm saying? Until then you're sort of fighting somewhat within your own camp. IMHO. But I don't disagree with you that she could possibly be helped. Just don't look at all the misdirection going on .... focus on the one causing the disease so to speak. I'm trying to help you out

Agreed, I've already begun doing so outside of this forum. But I'm not picking a fight with the meanies, I'm asking them to either help out or get out, instead of serving their own need to tear someone down. She's an easy target with all her bad logic and contradictions, I just don't see any honor in that. If the meanies want to think I'm fighting with them, then they can have fun swinging at the air.

 

[Akhenaten]

Well, excuse me. I must have missed the election.

Congratulations, Boss of Everyone.

Oh wow, sarcasm. How inventive.

Don't just clap - throw money!

Apart from that, thanks, I'll be here all week. Try the fish.

 

[Trent Wray]

Well said, I'm glad at least one person here can disagree without being vindictive about it. That was my whole point though, that if you aren't willing to try, then "leave the toilet," as you put it. Otherwise, folks are just going to get carpal tunnel from patting themselves on the back.

Agreed, I've already begun doing so outside of this forum. But I'm not picking a fight with the meanies, I'm asking them to either help out or get out, instead of serving their own need to tear someone down. She's an easy target with all her bad logic and contradictions, I just don't see any honor in that. If the meanies want to think I'm fighting with them, then they can have fun swinging at the air.

I understand what you're saying .... totally. And I think your "heart is in the right place" so to speak. I think there is hope for Anita as well, albeit a slim chance. But let me give you just a few more bits of food for thought:

To be fair, consider the JREF "Israel" … and she's another religion coming here pushing her magic. She comes here with her magic and claims, and they are entertained and debunked. Fairly and honestly and with due diligence. As a result, for her own benefit, she should quit with the magic and eventually become an Israelite. If she doesn't want to … she can expect to draw those who don't want her practicing her magic in their country. ESPECIALLY if she is always instigating. Not only this ... but she has betrayed the trust of those who did give her the benefit of the doubt and try to help her over a long period of time. Eventually, people's patience wears thin. Again .... no one owes her anything. She came to Israel ... Israel didn't go pick her to live here permanently. And Israel, in this case, happens to be one of those countries that most people want to see proof of citizenship for LOL . And to be fair, part of that citizenship involves a personal integrity to try and be truthful ... something Anita continually doesn't do. Now, can Israel be even more accpeting and give citizenship out to her because "there is hope for her?" It doesn't have to. It's not a free country. It's Israel

Years later, she is still around, pushing her magic and snake oil. Should the Israelites ignore her? Many do. Those that don't, want her out of their country.

The thing with Anita though, is that she sets out to piss off not just the Israelites living in Israel ….. but she has managed to piss off the Muslims, the Xtians, etc and so forth.

She is, in other words, on her own crusade. And as a result, she's managed to incite a Jihad from the country she is trying to invade. Now …. you and some others might have figured out that the only way she has power is to acknowledge her existence. If people ignore her … there is no Jihad, no crusade. Just her by herself. But that's not realistic …. that doesn't happen in the world. Some people fight her for the fight, while others think she's a danger to the rest of Israel, etc and so forth. Everyone has their reason.

But the center of the wheel isn't Israel or those who live there. They were already there before she came long. You're not going to change a country But you can, perhaps, change a single person. The one who walked into Israel with her magic and her crusade that she's purposefully started.

Now, and I feel strongly about this … if you want to help her change, stop her crusade, whatever …. it's going to take more than just standing up for her in Israel against the Jihadists. She's not going to care about that crap. You're only getting in the way of her crusade. You're taking away her food and nutrition, even though you know it's poison for her. She wants to eat it. I think it would take someone devoting their time and energy and effort to get her to eat a different food, put down her weapons, or even just to redirect her crusade into a safe dead end for her. But my guess is it would take a couple of years. I mean, how long did it take you to bounce back from your cataclysmic failure? A couple of weeks? Anita is deeply entrenched in her crusade. If you want to be part of her support team, you can prepare for a long haul or a pointless hope … unless you want to be the Knight in Shining Armour that rescues her from the position she wants to be in. That will involve more than words in a forum, imo.

But anyway …. don't blame the Israelites for protecting their turf. It's their right … it's their hill they call home, and she's the one that won't leave. She wasn't "born there" . You know what I'm saying? The Israelites can do what they want with their hill, whether you or I think it's wise or unwise. To each their own toilet LOL

 

[Daylightstar]

...
I'm asking them to either help out or get out,
...

It seems to me that there are most likely more effective ways of asking people here to help out.

If that's what you really want ofcourse.

 

[Ashles]

At least I'm trying to help somebody, one that everybody else has condemned to be not worth helping.

That's absolutely not the case. Clearly many people have and are trying to help Anita. I am trying to help Anita. We are all agreed she needs to stop these claims and move on with more productive areas of her life. And perhaps to wonder wha need these paranormal claims are filing.

You've debunked her claims a thousand times over (and done a great job, I might add), but to continue doing so is redundant and wasteful.

Well I absolutely disagree. To not do so is to me the more dangerous approach.
Anita was actually quietening down on her claims until Jeff Wagg carried out his non-critical interview.

And I have a hunch that Randi would disagree with your statement about skepticism.

And I have a hunch you are wrong about that as well.

It is clear from many of Randi's comments that 'helping people' is often not his main aim - debunking fraudulent claims is.

(The people being helped are often not the claimants but usually the people who are being warned not to trust/believe the claimant.)

Analysis and critical thinking are the tools of skeptics, not the justification.

And nobody apart from you is claiming it is the justification. That's called a 'strawman'.

The purpose is still to help people, otherwise we're just a bunch of nitpicking naysayers trying to claim the higher ground of rationality.

And I believe the best way to help Anita is to continuously point out how without basis, logic or evdence her claims are.

I think if you are intending to pander to her beliefs in any way that is very much the wrong approach.
But you'll note I'm not the one telling you to get off the thread, simply because I disagree with your approach.

 

[Moochie]

Ah ... and this is an excellent point. It took a cataclysmic episode of embarassment and shame .... and what did you fall back on after that event? Did you have friends and family and a loving support system which you trusted? Did you have an alternative that you could rely on and utilize? Or were you left completely empty-handed and devoid of anything real ... having to reconstruct your actual identity and life from near scratch, all by yourself?

This is where I think Anita falls into. Con artist or deluded narcissist ... that's only half of it. Let go of all of that and she has nothing she values, or trusts, or can rely upon to fall back on. She doesn't recognize the possible support system she has .... or her intelligence .... or perhaps her social ability ..... or her educational aptitude .... or anything that is really and truly "real". She has the fantasy/game and that's it. Someone will have to offer her an alternative. She will not look for it herself. She has spent too long looking in the wrong direction and has all but lost the ability to effectively create her own reality that actually is a part of reality. It's my theory, that she hasn't been "taught" how ... and those attempts by others to teach her were rejected due to trust issues, etc and so forth. This is the slim hope I think lies for Anita ... someone who will more or less be willing to leave the herd to go and rescue her, since she is essentially wasting away into fantasy. She can't do it herself. She has to be willing to TRY .... and then she can be helped. So whoever helps her can't carry her only. Otherwise, they are merely carrying around a dead weight. That's what the JREF and others are already doing. Carrying around a dead weight. Leave her be, drop her in the dirt, and let the herd carry on. If someone really wants to do Anita a favor, they will be willing to fall behind and "help the weak learn to walk on their own." But, as for right now, imo ... she only looks for those who will carry her along. The slim chance of hope for her, imo, is the possibility that there is still a part of her (a small part) that genuinely desires to have an alternate reality to her cataclysmically failing fantasy one. And that there is perhaps a part of her that has enough courage to attempt to walk if someone helps her who she will trust. But that is a slim chance. She could just as easily be a hopeless cause who will suck others for all they are worth to feed her delusions until her last breath, hoping that if she is a dead weight, at least she'll be paid to be a dead weight. I don't think she's honestly going to be a very successful hack or con-artist. I don't think she'd know what to do with fame/fortune. That would actually entail "success". And success is foreign to her. She hasn't thought that far ahead yet. Failure and letting others cart her around is her niche and comfort zone. All IMO

Um, somewhere in there I was wondering if the writing was about Anita Ikonen or Miley Cyrus, or an amalgam of the two.

All things considered, I'd really like to know what Deepak Chopra would make of either.


M.

 

[Ashles]

But I'm not picking a fight with the meanies, I'm asking them to either help out or get out, instead of serving their own need to tear someone down.

The arrgance that your approach is the only valid aproach and everyone else is ordered to stop posting is rather hypocritical.
Obviously nobody is going to stop posting here based on your say so.

I can only hope your approach to getting Anita to do what you wish her to is rather better thought out.

ETA: No-one is looking for a fight here - it's simply that your "everyone stop posting here except for me" approach is really conter-productive.

If you want to attempt your own approach with Anita it is probably better not to do it on a thread such as this anyway. Anita is certainly amenable to being approached via othe methods, particularly Skypr.

 

[Trent Wray]

Um, somewhere in there I was wondering if the writing was about Anita Ikonen or Miley Cyrus, or an amalgam of the two.

All things considered, I'd really like to know what Deepak Chopra would make of either.


M.

It was also about Bob Saget.

And that post was soooooo yesterday

 

[GeeMack]

At least I'm trying to help somebody, one that everybody else has condemned to be not worth helping. You've debunked her claims a thousand times over (and done a great job, I might add), but to continue doing so is redundant and wasteful.

And I have a hunch that Randi would disagree with your statement about skepticism. Analysis and critical thinking are the tools of skeptics, not the justification. The purpose is still to help people, otherwise we're just a bunch of nitpicking naysayers trying to claim the higher ground of rationality.

Before you get any further into that kind of thinking it might be a good idea for you to go read all the VFF threads here, from the beginning, every word. Because what you've said above is a simple argument from ignorance. If you really care to help you might educate yourself properly on the issue. If you are willing to do your homework, and once you actually know what you're talking about, you might just feel a little humbled about your sense of nobility.

In fact, as a little research project of your very own, in all your reading of all those posts in all those VFF threads, why don't you add up all the words in all the posts which were clearly trying to help her. Then come back and let us know what a good guy you are for, how'd you put it, "trying to help somebody, one that everybody else has condemned to be not worth helping"? And with some understanding of who these skeptics really are and how hard they've worked to help her, you can judge them as "a bunch of nitpicking naysayers" from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance.

Then after you've done that project you might want to reassess who among us is "trying to claim the higher ground of rationality".

 

[Pup]

The Israelites can do what they want with their hill, whether you or I think it's wise or unwise. To each their own toilet LOL

The only problem with that long extended metaphor is that I started out with a certain mental picture at: "To be fair, consider the JREF 'Israel' … and she's another religion coming here pushing her magic. She comes here with her magic and claims..."

There's another well-known story about an individual who showed up among the Israelites representing another religion and pushing his magic and claims. So when the metaphor works down to the final paragraph, I'm picturing the hill to be Golgotha.

That just gives the metaphor way too many messy overtones.

Personally, I finished debunking to my own satisfaction at the crushed pills and now I'm just here for the soap opera.

 

[Moochie]

I don't know. I find it curious as well. But that is how it goes.

See? Right there. There it is, right there. Plain as day. Who needs more convincing?


M.

 

[Trent Wray]

The only problem with that long extended metaphor is that I started out with a certain mental picture at: "To be fair, consider the JREF 'Israel' … and she's another religion coming here pushing her magic. She comes here with her magic and claims..."

There's another well-known story about an individual who showed up among the Israelites representing another religion and pushing his magic and claims. So when the metaphor works down to the final paragraph, I'm picturing the hill to be Golgotha.

That just gives the metaphor way too many messy overtones.

Personally, I finished debunking to my own satisfaction at the crushed pills and now I'm just here for the soap opera.

And you hit the nail DIRECTLY on the head. This is exactly what Anita is doing. Most of her is a scam artist and narcissist .... but I think, obviously imo, that she is wanting someone to "save her". Either the woos or the skeptics, and both have "failed" in her eyes. So, as a result, she's set up her own little soap opera where if no one is able to convert/save her (and she knows she's not going to convert or save anyone else) ... she will at least go down dying for her own cause, her own sins, etc. She's her own Jesus Christ that no one else wants LOL

In this sense, she's a martyr for her own cause, and in her own mind, the meanies will either save her or pay for their sins with her own "death". One of the reasons she's always throwing herself under the JREF and IIG (sp)? bus is for the martyr effect. Either yall will save her from the accident she causes, or she will be a martyr at your hands.

It's so complicated she doesn't even know what she's doing, and it would be very hard for her to see her own motives at this point. Too much introspection involved and her narcissitic chase-tailing glasses will filter out any rational psychological explanation or critical thought. And she's almost given up .... settling for going in circles with the nonsense and letting go of that slim part of her that actually doesn't want any of this to be happening. But if she quits now, she'll realize it was her that built her own cross and climbed up there on it and no one fell for the trick to take her down. No one should be blamed for nailing her to a cross or called a "meanie" .... although a bully will hammer in the nails farther out of spite, which is unnecessary. That won't bring her down, as RoboSapien is pointing out. But overall, her game was a manipulative ploy that could have been avoided alltogether .... but she has no other way out now (in her eyes). It's die on the cross she made, or bleed to death in a world she climbed up onto the cross to avoid in the first place

Yes it's a Soap Opera. It's the Passion of Anita, in her eyes. And it's playing out as she wanted, except she's not dead or ressurrecting yet ... the key ingredient to the story that she has ****** up. That's what she's holding out for, imo. Death equals giving into the narcissim and scam and trying to make money off rubes .... while ressurrecting means finding a way out from the nonsense into reality. But not skepticism. She doesn't trust it

 

[Robo Sapien]

That's absolutely not the case. Clearly many people have and are trying to help Anita. I am trying to help Anita. We are all agreed she needs to stop these claims and move on with more productive areas of her life. And perhaps to wonder wha need these paranormal claims are filing.

That is precisely my point. To what end is this nonsense of hers serving? That, IMO, is the only issue we should be addressing to Anita. Countering all of her statements regarding her claims only causes her to rebut with even more blind conviction.

Well I absolutely disagree. To not do so is to me the more dangerous approach. Anita was actually quietening down on her claims until Jeff Wagg carried out his non-critical interview.

I understand your perspective, but I question the dangers that are being implied here. However, I do agree 100% that we can hold Jeff Wagg responsible for re-igniting this fire.

And I have a hunch you are wrong about that as well. It is clear from many of Randi's comments that 'helping people' is often not his main aim - debunking fraudulent claims is. (The people being helped are often not the claimants but usually the people who are being warned not to trust/believe the claimant.)

And what, exactly, is the point of debunking anything if not to help SOMEBODY?

And nobody apart from you is claiming it is the justification. That's called a 'strawman'.

Strawman, my ass. Please re-read, I said it is NOT the justification, it is the means. Whether deliberate or not, you clearly took my statement out of context.

And I believe the best way to help Anita is to continuously point out how without basis, logic or evdence her claims are. I think if you are intending to pander to her beliefs in any way that is very much the wrong approach.

Helping Anita isn't my only concern, but more so helping any potential victims of her wooish ways. You say that the best way to achieve that end is to continuously discredit her every word, but that is what has been done since the very beginning, and look where we are now. Although correct in every point you make to her, they just bounce off like rubber pellets.

But you'll note I'm not the one telling you to get off the thread, simply because I disagree with your approach.

I will concede that I come across as standoff-ish, but the point I'm making is that all this debunking and discrediting isn't just ineffective where Anita is concerned, but actually damaging to the results that we all seek. Your logic is superb, but Anita is not a logical person. Throwing reason at her is having an opposite effect, it just makes her behave more unreasonably. I liken it to the big doomsday planet from The Fifth Element, where the military fired missiles at it, and that just made it swell up even bigger and angrier.

Obviously we are in passionate disagreement here, but we're both a little bit guilty of forgetting that we are on the same team. Let's step back a bit and try to reach a better conclusion, infighting isn't helping much. And yes, I am well aware that I started it. I'm also trying to finish it.

 

[Ashles]

Obviously we are in passionate disagreement here, but we're both a little bit guilty of forgetting that we are on the same team. Let's step back a bit and try to reach a better conclusion, infighting isn't helping much. And yes, I am well aware that I started it. I'm also trying to finish it.

Hug then?

 

[Robo Sapien]

Before you get any further into that kind of thinking it might be a good idea for you to go read all the VFF threads here, from the beginning, every word. Because what you've said above is a simple argument from ignorance. If you really care to help you might educate yourself properly on the issue. If you are willing to do your homework, and once you actually know what you're talking about, you might just feel a little humbled about your sense of nobility.

In fact, as a little research project of your very own, in all your reading of all those posts in all those VFF threads, why don't you add up all the words in all the posts which were clearly trying to help her. Then come back and let us know what a good guy you are for, how'd you put it, "trying to help somebody, one that everybody else has condemned to be not worth helping"? And with some understanding of who these skeptics really are and how hard they've worked to help her, you can judge them as "a bunch of nitpicking naysayers" from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance.

Then after you've done that project you might want to reassess who among us is "trying to claim the higher ground of rationality".

Ahem.. (cracks knuckles). Grats on being able to look at my profile and viewing history, you are truly talented. But before you go and authoritatively determine that I am ignorant because of what you THINK I have and have not read, consider that I may have followed this for a while prior to signing up for the forums. From what I understand, the "troll before you poll" approach is not that uncommon here.

And quit putting words in my mouth. I didn't call anyone nitpicking naysayers, I said that without helping people then that is all we will be. Misquote me again and I'll just ignore you.

Some of you are acting overly defensive, as if I presumed to command anyone to follow my will. I asked that people step back and examine the results of all this and consider other ways to help. I am well aware that others have tried to help her in the past, but evidently to no effect.

Sorry if you feel insulted that I have the audacity to criticize the obvious USELESSNESS of these tactics, but the proof is in the pudding. You can take it into consideration and offer a civil rebuttal, or act like a scorned little girl, your choice. So far, Trent is the only one here who has responded with a modicum of tact. Thanks, Trent.


Edit: Include Ashles in that too, we hugged.