Why I Could Conceivably Become a Theist

[Robin]

Alright, who do YOU say that Jesus Christ is?

A holy man who lived about 2,000 years ago and impressed the people at the time enough to build a religion around him.

Whether he was the incarnation of God, or the precursor to Muhammad or just a man with a good line in chat I cannot say.

 

[154]

I wouldn't pay for you, of course, for you might misconstrue that as imposing some obligation upon you. Heaven forefend!

The Amazing Meeting!, of course. Easy to find information on it. Check out the top of the index page of these forums.

I think it remarkably unlikely that you would attend a TAM, but I've been wrong many times before.

It's not that important to me. But if you'd like to put me to the test, buy me a ticket, put me up at the cheapest dump you can find, that'll be fine, I'll drive there wherever it is. Bet me.

When I go, I may just enjoy a single room all by myself. As much as I'm sure I'd enjoy your conversation, I'm guessing that meeting and talking with hundreds of people from JREF and the forums would take a lot out of me, and I'm willing to be that some peace and quiet at the end of the day would be welcome.

We could get together there so that you could let me know just how much hellfire will hurt. I already know what you think on the subject, but who am I to deprive you of the pleasure of sending me to hell yet again.

You don't know me at all. You would almost certainly be surprised at how well we otherwise got along. Try me.

A holy man who lived about 2,000 years ago and impressed the people at the time enough to build a religion around him.

Whether he was the incarnation of God, or the precursor to Muhammad or just a man with a good line in chat I cannot say.

That's a fair answer. I apologize for assuming otherwise of you.

 

[Complexity]

You don't know me at all. You would almost certainly be surprised at how well we otherwise got along. Try me.

I know enough.

There never is an 'otherwise' with you people - its always 'god' this and 'hell' that.

I honestly think I'd rather have a beer with Roadtoad.

Yep, damned sure - I'd much rather have a beer with Roadtoad.

 

[Robin]

Turns out I misremembered in any case. All the talk of "signs" I was thinking of occurs in the Gospels, not the Apocalypse.

 

[Trent Wray]

And I'll also try anything once, within reason I suppose, but most seafood is a no-go for me. Years ago, visiting friends down on the TX coast, they told me how great the crawfish was, and "sucking the heads" too. I tried.Not really. No problem here. Except for one snarky response to me, you've been a decent guy as far as I can tell. I don't hold grudges. Even Complexity would see that if he was able not to insult first and only. While serious and honest, this is only brief diversion and entertainment. My purpose here? To say some things, no matter how much it may bother some of you, that will be implanted in some heads and just might, maybe, somewhere down the line, bear some fruit, God-willing, despite myself.
God.

What kind of fruit are you hoping it will bear?

See .... this is something I don't get. This is what I've always kinda called "shotgunning". Someone who believes they know god, or some truth, etc and so forth ... and the idea that merely speaking words that they believe to be true will have some mystical effect, because they are "gods" truths. And so they take those words, ideas, whatever .... and throw them at a group of people, hoping some of them will stick. If they don't stick, either it wasn't meant to be yet, they only planted a few seeds, or the people were too wicked to let the words/truths have an effect.

Now, I can understand this tactic when it comes to marketing, or hawking some product on the street at passerbys hoping to get a quick sale, etc.

But aren't you generally talking about eternal life verses eternal torment? Don't you believe that you're actually doing something on god's behalf, the supposed creator of the universe and judge of the living and the dead and all of that? So are you selling some snake oil to make a buck for your conscience so you can feel like you tried, or are you actually trying to change someone's eternal destiny as you believe it and see it?

If I was merely trying to sell a product, I would do the shotgun technique. But if I thought that I was actually impacting someone's life to the degree that they were either headed down a path to hell or a path to eternal life .... I would take it much more seriously.

I would see the crowd before me not as a group of people having a talk on a forum, or sitting in a coffee shop deciding which blend to try, etc and so forth. I would see all the people as possible casualities .... people's whose souls were standing in the very balance of life and eternal torment and torture.

Have you ever been tortured? Have you ever been in a position where your life was threatened for days on end? Have you ever lost a love one and had them die in your arms, watching them breathe their last breath?

Would you give those people some bandaids or try to sell them some aspirin? Or would you scream for help and call 911 and do all you could to make sure they had an army which swore to leave no soldier behind .... or a set of physicians and doctors and surgeons ready to go at a moment's notice to practice their intricate and specific skillset to save a life hanging in the balance?

If I honestly believed that these people on this forum were threatened with eternal torture before my eyes, I would not settle for, "maybe I'll get some stuff into their heads and bear some fruit, whether they like it or not." I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but your attempts at proselytyzing (sp) seem more like you're trying to meet personal quotas than actually caring about someone's eternal destination. It sounds like you're content to throw us bandaids and sell us Flinstone Vitamins rather than being absolutely sure and positive we get the best spiritual care we can possibly get and that 911 has been called and that your army of backups are on the way to save our souls from torment and despair forever.

I don't understand how a believer can be content with, "Well, I hope this does something. I hope this works. If not, oh well." Is that what you hope the surgeon performing a coronary artery bypass graft on your wife is saying? I doubt it.

So let me ask you .... is there a way that you can be absolutely, positively sure that you are actually helping us and trying to bear fruit in the ways that we specifically need this done in order to have our souls saved from a moment of torment in hell? Did God himself tell you to say exactly the words you said, to each one of us in exactly the ways you were supposed to say them? Did he commission you, beyond the shadow of a doubt, to do or speak things in his name and take that responsibility upon yourself? Because if we are all sitting right now on a surgeons table and you are telling us we are going to code any moment, something more than a bandaid would be nice.

And this is the point where I generally would ask you if you are going to make guesses and quote scriptures and still attempt to speak on god's behalf, that you please call God into the room so he can take over because the bandaids aren't working that I can tell. And perhaps we need the actual surgeon to step up instead of a passerby just like us. Unless of course you've never met the surgeon, or gotten anything more than a bandaid yourself. And if that's the case .... how can you possibly be content with a bandaid for yourself or your loved ones, hoping that it all works out? I would want to have words with a god who was threatening me and a loved one over something of that nature. Wouldn't you? Or are you content to leave others behind and let us die here in this forum?

I mean no disrespect, but do you see my point whatsoever?

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

What kind of fruit are you hoping it will bear?

See .... this is something I don't get. This is what I've always kinda called "shotgunning". Someone who believes they know god, or some truth, etc and so forth ... and the idea that merely speaking words that they believe to be true will have some mystical effect, because they are "gods" truths. And so they take those words, ideas, whatever .... and throw them at a group of people, hoping some of them will stick. If they don't stick, either it wasn't meant to be yet, they only planted a few seeds, or the people were too wicked to let the words/truths have an effect.

Now, I can understand this tactic when it comes to marketing, or hawking some product on the street at passerbys hoping to get a quick sale, etc.

But aren't you generally talking about eternal life verses eternal torment? Don't you believe that you're actually doing something on god's behalf, the supposed creator of the universe and judge of the living and the dead and all of that? So are you selling some snake oil to make a buck for your conscience so you can feel like you tried, or are you actually trying to change someone's eternal destiny as you believe it and see it?

If I was merely trying to sell a product, I would do the shotgun technique. But if I thought that I was actually impacting someone's life to the degree that they were either headed down a path to hell or a path to eternal life .... I would take it much more seriously.

I would see the crowd before me not as a group of people having a talk on a forum, or sitting in a coffee shop deciding which blend to try, etc and so forth. I would see all the people as possible casualities .... people's whose souls were standing in the very balance of life and eternal torment and torture.

Have you ever been tortured? Have you ever been in a position where your life was threatened for days on end? Have you ever lost a love one and had them die in your arms, watching them breathe their last breath?

Would you give those people some bandaids or try to sell them some aspirin? Or would you scream for help and call 911 and do all you could to make sure they had an army which swore to leave no soldier behind .... or a set of physicians and doctors and surgeons ready to go at a moment's notice to practice their intricate and specific skillset to save a life hanging in the balance?

If I honestly believed that these people on this forum were threatened with eternal torture before my eyes, I would not settle for, "maybe I'll get some stuff into their heads and bear some fruit, whether they like it or not." I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but your attempts at proselytyzing (sp) seem more like you're trying to meet personal quotas than actually caring about someone's eternal destination. It sounds like you're content to throw us bandaids and sell us Flinstone Vitamins rather than being absolutely sure and positive we get the best spiritual care we can possibly get and that 911 has been called and that your army of backups are on the way to save our souls from torment and despair forever.

I don't understand how a believer can be content with, "Well, I hope this does something. I hope this works. If not, oh well." Is that what you hope the surgeon performing a coronary artery bypass graft on your wife is saying? I doubt it.

So let me ask you .... is there a way that you can be absolutely, positively sure that you are actually helping us and trying to bear fruit in the ways that we specifically need this done in order to have our souls saved from a moment of torment in hell? Did God himself tell you to say exactly the words you said, to each one of us in exactly the ways you were supposed to say them? Did he commission you, beyond the shadow of a doubt, to do or speak things in his name and take that responsibility upon yourself? Because if we are all sitting right now on a surgeons table and you are telling us we are going to code any moment, something more than a bandaid would be nice.

And this is the point where I generally would ask you if you are going to make guesses and quote scriptures and still attempt to speak on god's behalf, that you please call God into the room so he can take over because the bandaids aren't working that I can tell. And perhaps we need the actual surgeon to step up instead of a passerby just like us. Unless of course you've never met the surgeon, or gotten anything more than a bandaid yourself. And if that's the case .... how can you possibly be content with a bandaid for yourself or your loved ones, hoping that it all works out? I would want to have words with a god who was threatening me and a loved one over something of that nature. Wouldn't you? Or are you content to leave others behind and let us die here in this forum?

I mean no disrespect, but do you see my point whatsoever?

I have often wondered this same thing. When I was a believer, I wasn't taught you had to believe in Christ to be saved, just Christ like in that you were a good person, so I never wrestled with this.


I have a friend of mine who used to be a born again, then she lost her faith. when she lost her faith, her closest religious friends just lost it. They begged, they cried, they pleaded with her. They had a "spiritual intervention." She eventually had to cut off her friendship with them because all they did all the time when they were together was try and "save" her.

I live in Boston. there's a guy I see all the time in the subways here who is passing out literature about how to be saved from Hell. he's got a big sign and goes up to people and gets very emotional. He is a very common figure here around the city.

now on the one hand, these people are obnoxious. And in the first case, they really were emotionally taxing on my friend. But you know what, at least you know they sincerely care about whether or not people go to Hell. They actually are trying to save souls. They actually are severely bothered at the idea of people being tortured when they can save them.

but people like the ones you describe, I do get the feeling they just want to win points with the big guy and don't really care about the rest of us being tortured. And that bothers me from an empathetic stand point. how can you just be so flippant about billions of people getting tortured for eternity?

But the worst are the ones who take pleasure from it. I can't tell you how many times on a net forum I've seen a believer smugly mock a non believer with something along the lines of "well you can believe you're right all you want, but when you're burning in Hell then you'll KNOW I was right!"
They seem to think "well, I can't force this person to think/act like me...but at least i take comfort in the fact they'll be tortured forever." which just is so disturbing to me.

 

[Trent Wray]

I have often wondered this same thing. When I was a believer, I wasn't taught you had to believe in Christ to be saved, just Christ like in that you were a good person, so I never wrestled with this.


I have a friend of mine who used to be a born again, then she lost her faith. when she lost her faith, her closest religious friends just lost it. They begged, they cried, they pleaded with her. They had a "spiritual intervention." She eventually had to cut off her friendship with them because all they did all the time when they were together was try and "save" her.

I live in Boston. there's a guy I see all the time in the subways here who is passing out literature about how to be saved from Hell. he's got a big sign and goes up to people and gets very emotional. He is a very common figure here around the city.

now on the one hand, these people are obnoxious. And in the first case, they really were emotionally taxing on my friend. But you know what, at least you know they sincerely care about whether or not people go to Hell. They actually are trying to save souls. They actually are severely bothered at the idea of people being tortured when they can save them.

but people like the ones you describe, I do get the feeling they just want to win points with the big guy and don't really care about the rest of us being tortured. And that bothers me from an empathetic stand point. how can you just be so flippant about billions of people getting tortured for eternity?

But the worst are the ones who take pleasure from it. I can't tell you how many times on a net forum I've seen a believer smugly mock a non believer with something along the lines of "well you can believe you're right all you want, but when you're burning in Hell then you'll KNOW I was right!"
They seem to think "well, I can't force this person to think/act like me...but at least i take comfort in the fact they'll be tortured forever." which just is so disturbing to me.

In some ways, I have more respect for the fundie who is actually willing to take their beliefs seriously and act upon it .... than the person who is claiming and treating my possible eternal torture like it's either entertainment in a movie they are watching or I'm just a plastic thing on an assembly line with little to no value which they have to inspect during their work day while they're on the clock.

Tossing around the idea that I am going to be tormented forever and that they either like it or don't really care all that much about it essentially makes them a criminal or a psychopath with no empathy in my mind. If I walked up to a strangers door, knocked, and then announced to the household that everyone needed to listen to my message or else they were all going to be raped, beaten, and tortured for hours .... they would call the police. Likewise, if I told them the same but adding that I was content to just sit and watch if they didn't want to do anything about their imminent torture, rape, and beatings ... they would still call the police.

At least the fundie heard the message, believed it, and then were willing to put their money where their mouth (allbeit their deluded and dangerous mouth) was. The casual believer who tosses around those ideas like they're not the threats they really are, are essentially playing with toy guns, pointing it in my direction, but never pulling the trigger. And if it weren't for the society we live in realizing they are just toy guns most of the time, there would be MUCH more violence and bloodshed over their ideas and statements that they make. Enter the clash between Islam and Xtianity and Judaism, etc and so forth. Telling somebody they are going to burn in hell forever on an internet forum is the luxury of someone who is playing with a toy and knows that they themselves will suffer no consequences. Walking down the street of Amman and proclaiming the same thing, with the same attitude, will be taken a little more seriously I imagine then posting the stuff here to an overall rational and understanding group who won't respond with violence to the toy guns being pointed at them.

 

[154]

What kind of fruit are you hoping it will bear?

See .... this is something I don't get. This is what I've always kinda called "shotgunning". Someone who believes they know god, or some truth, etc and so forth ... and the idea that merely speaking words that they believe to be true will have some mystical effect, because they are "gods" truths. And so they take those words, ideas, whatever .... and throw them at a group of people, hoping some of them will stick. If they don't stick, either it wasn't meant to be yet, they only planted a few seeds, or the people were too wicked to let the words/truths have an effect.

Now, I can understand this tactic when it comes to marketing, or hawking some product on the street at passerbys hoping to get a quick sale, etc.

But aren't you generally talking about eternal life verses eternal torment? Don't you believe that you're actually doing something on god's behalf, the supposed creator of the universe and judge of the living and the dead and all of that? So are you selling some snake oil to make a buck for your conscience so you can feel like you tried, or are you actually trying to change someone's eternal destiny as you believe it and see it?

If I was merely trying to sell a product, I would do the shotgun technique. But if I thought that I was actually impacting someone's life to the degree that they were either headed down a path to hell or a path to eternal life .... I would take it much more seriously.

I would see the crowd before me not as a group of people having a talk on a forum, or sitting in a coffee shop deciding which blend to try, etc and so forth. I would see all the people as possible casualities .... people's whose souls were standing in the very balance of life and eternal torment and torture.

Have you ever been tortured? Have you ever been in a position where your life was threatened for days on end? Have you ever lost a love one and had them die in your arms, watching them breathe their last breath?

Would you give those people some bandaids or try to sell them some aspirin? Or would you scream for help and call 911 and do all you could to make sure they had an army which swore to leave no soldier behind .... or a set of physicians and doctors and surgeons ready to go at a moment's notice to practice their intricate and specific skillset to save a life hanging in the balance?

If I honestly believed that these people on this forum were threatened with eternal torture before my eyes, I would not settle for, "maybe I'll get some stuff into their heads and bear some fruit, whether they like it or not." I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but your attempts at proselytyzing (sp) seem more like you're trying to meet personal quotas than actually caring about someone's eternal destination. It sounds like you're content to throw us bandaids and sell us Flinstone Vitamins rather than being absolutely sure and positive we get the best spiritual care we can possibly get and that 911 has been called and that your army of backups are on the way to save our souls from torment and despair forever.

I don't understand how a believer can be content with, "Well, I hope this does something. I hope this works. If not, oh well." Is that what you hope the surgeon performing a coronary artery bypass graft on your wife is saying? I doubt it.

So let me ask you .... is there a way that you can be absolutely, positively sure that you are actually helping us and trying to bear fruit in the ways that we specifically need this done in order to have our souls saved from a moment of torment in hell? Did God himself tell you to say exactly the words you said, to each one of us in exactly the ways you were supposed to say them? Did he commission you, beyond the shadow of a doubt, to do or speak things in his name and take that responsibility upon yourself? Because if we are all sitting right now on a surgeons table and you are telling us we are going to code any moment, something more than a bandaid would be nice.

And this is the point where I generally would ask you if you are going to make guesses and quote scriptures and still attempt to speak on god's behalf, that you please call God into the room so he can take over because the bandaids aren't working that I can tell. And perhaps we need the actual surgeon to step up instead of a passerby just like us. Unless of course you've never met the surgeon, or gotten anything more than a bandaid yourself. And if that's the case .... how can you possibly be content with a bandaid for yourself or your loved ones, hoping that it all works out? I would want to have words with a god who was threatening me and a loved one over something of that nature. Wouldn't you? Or are you content to leave others behind and let us die here in this forum?

I mean no disrespect, but do you see my point whatsoever?

Do you really think I should dedicate the time and effort to make my every post as long as yours?

Do you really think I should also post 100 times as frequently to keep up with you?

And do all this to greatly expound on my thoughts, experiences, philosophies and learnings
to an audience that will mostly dismiss it out of hand with insult?

So I would be criticized for proselytizing or I can be criticized for being less than sufficiently serious, but either way I likely get nowhere and no approval.

Exactly how masochistic would you have me be?

I started here with some truly incredible prophecies fulfilled concerning Jesus Christ and Israel. Not a single person here took them seriously or showed any genuine curiousity or interest in further examination. Not one.

 

[Complexity]

Do you really think I should dedicate the time and effort to make my every post as long as yours?

Do you really think I should also post 100 times as frequently to keep up with you?

And do all this to greatly expound on my thoughts, experiences, philosophies and learnings
to an audience that will mostly dismiss it out of hand with insult?

So I would be criticized for proselytizing or I can be criticized for being less than sufficiently serious, but either way I likely get nowhere and no approval.

Exactly how masochistic would you have me be?

I started here with some truly incredible prophecies fulfilled concerning Jesus Christ and Israel. Not a single person here took them seriously or showed any genuine curiousity or interest in further examination. Not one.

jeebus and israel? Yawn.

I don't expect you to do much of anything. I certainly think you've written sufficiently on the few topics that interest you. No one is biting. No one is interested. Find a much better topic or scribble on, writing only for yourself.

None of your points has been worth addressing, none of your questions has been worth answering, none of your posts has been worth reading.

Some of us will continue to perform our civic duty by pointing out silliness and error to future generations, but don't mistake this for interest.

 

[Trent Wray]

Do you really think I should dedicate the time and effort to make my every post as long as yours?

If you really believed what you claim, you should dedicate the time and effort necessary to get the job done. If you saw a person in crises ... say, trapped under a car that was on fire, would you walk up to her and tug a few times and say, "sorry, I gotta go," ? Would you stand there and condemn her for not freeing herself after a few of your tugs? Would you pass the buck?

Would it have been better for you to not even try to help her in the first place? After all .... it's not ABOUT YOU is it? Consider her for a moment. You show up and attempt to help her in a crises but then jet after a few attempts. You give her a false hope. How many of you is it going to take coming along before she gives up on people like you alltogether?

This sums up not only the flippancy in which you treat us hell bound heathen ... but it also sums up the inadequacy of quoting some ancient prophecies we are supposed to believe. THEY ARE FALSE HOPE. If you believe we are hell bound, in crises, in need of truth .... you are but one of many who have come along and given us words that have no meaning and no relevance to the crises here and now. And each one of you has left, without being able to free us from our hell-bound crises. At some point, many of us looked around and realized we weren't trapped under a car that was about to explode, like your prophecies have proclaimed time and again.

But again, if you really were interested in convincing us, you would not stop until the job was complete. And if you were really interested in helping us escape hell, you would HELP instead of taunt and antagonize. Furthermore, if we are hellbound and ignorant of truth, why do you expect us to react kindly to you in the first place? Shouldn't the norm, for someone trapped in a burning vehicle, be to react irrationally? Screaming and yelling and flipping about? Especially considering those who have tried to "help us" before were unable to. Why should we trust you? Would you trust someone who was putting you down and threatening you?

Do you really think I should also post 100 times as frequently to keep up with you?

And do all this to greatly expound on my thoughts, experiences, philosophies and learnings
to an audience that will mostly dismiss it out of hand with insult?

So I would be criticized for proselytizing or I can be criticized for being less than sufficiently serious, but either way I likely get nowhere and no approval.

Exactly how masochistic would you have me be?

I started here with some truly incredible prophecies fulfilled concerning Jesus Christ and Israel. Not a single person here took them seriously or showed any genuine curiousity or interest in further examination. Not one.

This is all about you, and not about us ... the hell bound heathen. You are making what I consider to be the greatest error of a believer ... you are hoping that the heathen respond to you, and what you perceive to be incredible, and what you perceive to be truth. And if we don't, you write us off or blame us for not getting it the billionth time around and you even get upset when we dare to insult you.

You are wanting to be god and use the authority you think god has, and you are wanting us to worship you and your words. But you won't see this in yourself, most likely .... because that is the way pride works. If you wanted to truly help us, you wouldn't be concerned so much with how we responded to you ... but whether or not we got help. And when you see that your efforts fall short ... instead of blaming us, you'd go and get your God to appear and show up and take over. Since it's supposed to be all about him and us, right?

But instead, you are getting in the way of your own god. Thus, who are you wanting us to see as god? You see my point?

 

[154]

..you.. you.. you.. you.. you.. you.. your.. you.. you .... it's not ABOUT YOU is it? You.. You.. you.. you.. you treat us hell bound heathen ... inadequacy of quoting some ancient prophecies ..THEY ARE FALSE HOPE.. you.. you..words that have no meaning and no relevance.. you.. your prophecies.. you.. you.. you.. you would HELP instead of taunt and antagonize..you expect us to react kindly to you in the first place?..Why should we trust you?.. you.. you.. you.. This is all about you.. You.. you.. you.. you.. you.. you.. you even get upset when we dare to insult you.. You are wanting to be god.. you.. you are wanting us to worship you.. your words.. you.. yourself.. pride.. you.. you.. you.. you.. your efforts.. you'd.. your God.. you.. your own god..you..You see my point?

Wrong.

"154" does not matter.

"154" is not my point.

 

[Trent Wray]

Wrong.

"154" does not matter.

"154" is not my point.

Prove it

 

[Robin]

I started here with some truly incredible prophecies fulfilled concerning Jesus Christ and Israel. Not a single person here took them seriously or showed any genuine curiousity or interest in further examination. Not one.

I went looking for these and couldn't find them. Can you point me at the post or posts you mean?

 

[Mark6]

Fine. Maybe I'll play your way. Your posts will remain but mine would be promptly removed, but you'll see them.

Edited by LashL: 

Removed quoted moderated content

How nice. Thank you for this display of Christian charity and benevolence. Keep advertising!

 

[Foster Zygote]

...unlike all of you here, that I never have a problem saying "I don't know"...

All of us here? Most people on this forum say "I don't know" all the time. "I don't know" is the driving force behind the practice of science.

 

[Mark6]

Here is what Christ says about this issue:

http://bible.cc/matthew/16-4.htm

To summarize: I am telling The Truth, no I am not going to present any evidence, and if you even ask for evidence you are wicked and will be forever condemned.

Exactly what a charlatan would say -- and not even a very smart or imaginative charlatan.

I am supposed to believe that god gave me reason, yet if my reason leads me to doubt god's existence -- or even ask for evidence, -- I will be subjected to unimaginable torture fot trillions of trillions of trillions of years?

I find it much more likely that your religion was made up by controlling and vicious men, than that being in charge of universe is THAT powerful yet THAT cruel, small-minded and vindictive.

 

[Mark6]

I went looking for these and couldn't find them. Can you point me at the post or posts you mean?

Right here:

If you are, or get, familiar with the prophetic scenarios,
you will probably have some cause and opportunities for reflection and reconsideration,
and maybe soon.

He never actually quoted or listed any prophecies. Just kept saying "go and get familiar."

 

[Foster Zygote]

What will determine who goes to hell and who doesn't at that moment we are both in the coffee shop, essentially being only a few degrees different from each other in that moment?

Well you, obviously. You just admitted that you defile yourself by eating shellfish.

 

[154]

Right here:

Wrong.

He never actually quoted or listed any prophecies. Just kept saying "go and get familiar."

Wrong again.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5789815#post5789815

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5814937#post5814937

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5814984#post5814984

 

[Complexity]

Wrong.
Wrong again.

Wrong.
Wrong again.