Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[stilicho]

Snacking

Then while we were preparing a little coffee, I told him about the things I had seen. And while we were eating biscuits...

(Source: Amanda's Court Testimony)

OT: Am I the only one who needs a snack when discussing this case? Everyone seems to be having a bite to eat all the way through. Eating pizza, preparing fish, cooking with Meredith and pricking her hand, drinking fruit juice, spicy kebabs, making pasta...it's endless.

Is this just an Italian thing? Do they mark time by their meals? I don't think I've ever encountered such a thing where food and drink is so important to people's daily lives.

How many meal breaks are considered normal in Italy?

 

[HumanityBlues]

Stilicho, the food in Italy is incredible and a huge part of Italian culture. You have no idea what you've been missing. Although, I've been to Perugia more than once and they are infamous for their bad food compared to the rest of Italy.

 

[Malkmus]

Malkmus,

It's probably a typo, but at one point you confuse 20:00 as being 10pm for the time of the memorial.

Also, my understanding had been that they were summoned to the questura twice, hence the police being pissed off that they had been blown off supposedly for the memorial, but actually for pizza. Now I don't know, but I think we should keep in mind the possibility that they may have been asked more than once on the 5th, just as they may have eaten more than once on the 5th.

Thanks, Shuttit, you are correct. It's late and sleep is calling...

So, if the vigil was at 8 PM, and they were called at 5, still does not indicate that they purposely missed the vigil. So, what the two timelines are saying is that RS was called at 1700, but they didn't go until 22:15? Still only 15 minutes for them to have a conversation in the waiting room and then for RS to break and change his story under questioning? What seems most likely is that they arrived much earlier than 22:15.

EDIT: New timeline on PMF does state that AK and RS went to the questura before the vigil:

2. 1700 Raffaele summoned to the police station. Amanda goes with him and waits in a separate room.
3. 2000 Candlelight vigil for Meredith.

Guess we'll have to wait for clarification on this still...

 

[shuttlt]

Thanks, Shuttit, you are correct. It's late and sleep is calling...

So, if the vigil was at 8 PM, and they were called at 5, still does not indicate that they purposely missed the vigil. So, what the two timelines are saying is that RS was called at 1700, but they didn't go until 22:15? Still only 15 minutes for them to have a conversation in the waiting room and then for RS to break and change his story under questioning? What seems most likely is that they arrived much earlier than 22:15.

EDIT: New timeline on PMF does state that AK and RS went to the questura before the vigil:

2. 1700 Raffaele summoned to the police station. Amanda goes with him and waits in a separate room.
3. 2000 Candlelight vigil for Meredith.

Guess we'll have to wait for clarification on this still...

I disagree, there is no reason that I am aware of for Raffaele to have said the whole "everything I told you before was ********" thing that early. It could have been what prompted them to take Amanda into the interrogation room, but that could still be as late as 11:30pm. Or it could have been what prompted the intense phase of questioning, in which case we are talking the early hours of the morning.

 

[shuttlt]

The young man is summoned to the police station at 22:40 on 5 November, two nights ago. Dopo la scoperta del cadavere di Meredith era già stato interrogato, ma aveva detto di non sapere che cosa fosse accaduto: «Ero fuori con Amanda», si era giustificato. After the discovery of the corpse of Meredith had already been questioned, but told her not knowing what had happened: "I was out with Amanda," it was justified. Ora capisce che la situazione è cambiata. Now understand that the situation has changed. E così decide di modificare anche la propria versione. And so he decided to change his or her own version. Il verbale di Raffaele Sollecito comincia alle 22.40 di martedì. The minutes of Raffaele Sollecito begins at 22:40 on Tuesday. «Conosco Amanda da due settimane. "I know Amanda two weeks......

....He [Really she, meaning Amanda] told me to call 112, but in the meantime the police arrived by post. Nel precedente verbale vi ho riferito un sacco di cazzate perché lei mi aveva convinto della sua versione dei fatti e non ho pensato alle incongruenze». In the previous report I have referred a lot of crap because she had convinced me of his version of events and I did not think the inconsistencies."

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_07/meredith_verbali_sarzanini.shtml

For some reason the translation has come out with one sentence of English, and then the same sentence in Italian. Anyway, Raffaele's questioning began at 22:40 and at some while later he also said that the 112 calls had been made after the postal police arrived, and he blames the "********" on Amanda.

The above newspaper article if from 7th November '07, so it comes from a very early point in the case.

 

[Malkmus]

I disagree, there is no reason that I am aware of for Raffaele to have said the whole "everything I told you before was ********" thing that early. It could have been what prompted them to take Amanda into the interrogation room, but that could still be as late as 11:30pm. Or it could have been what prompted the intense phase of questioning, in which case we are talking the early hours of the morning.

Maybe it's just the lack of sleep, but it seems more like we're in agreement here. If we know that Raffaele "broke" at 22:30, then that seems, as you said, too early in the interrogation, at least, if we assume he had just arrived at the station 15 minutes earlier. Which is why I'm saying they probably arrived earlier than that. Either that or RS "broke" much later than 22:30. Not sure exactly which part you disagree with, but either way, the timelines don't seem correct.

 

[shuttlt]

Maybe it's just the lack of sleep, but it seems more like we're in agreement here. If we know that Raffaele "broke" at 22:30, then that seems, as you said, too early in the interrogation, at least, if we assume he had just arrived at the station 15 minutes earlier.

This is where we disagree. I do not think Raffaele had said anything important by 22:30. The FinnMacCool timeline is a new one on me and I can't see that it can be correct, at least in so far as this detail goes. Perhaps Falcanelli can clear up the PMF position on this.

 

[Malkmus]

This is where we disagree. I do not think Raffaele had said anything important by 22:30. The FinnMacCool timeline is a new one on me and I can't see that it can be correct, at least in so far as this detail goes. Perhaps Falcanelli can clear up the PMF position on this.

Just to be clear, the FinnMacCool timeline doesn't state what time RS started changing his story, only that he was "summoned" at 1700 and that they were in the station before 20:00. The "comprehensive"" timeline is the one that states he started changing his story at 22:30. The article you cited does make more sense by stating his interrogation started later.

 

[shuttlt]

Thanks Malkmus. You're right of course about the primary timeline. It might be right, but 15 minutes seems surprisingly quick. Perhaps Falcanelli can shed some light. My money would be on it being 11pm at the absolute earliest that Raffaele dropped Amanda in it, but this is desperately old ground and has probably been argued to death before. If I have time I'll try and track down the discussion that led up to the this particular content being in the timeline.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Thanks Malkmus. You're right of course about the primary timeline. It might be right, but 15 minutes seems surprisingly quick. Perhaps Falcanelli can shed some light. My money would be on it being 11pm at the absolute earliest that Raffaele dropped Amanda in it, but this is desperately old ground and has probably been argued to death before. If I have time I'll try and track down the discussion that led up to the this particular content being in the timeline.

Yes, the 10:30 time can be a bit misleading when saying Raffaele 'broke', rather it means that is the commencement of the questioning session where he broke. It can also be confusing because normally we quote the time where the questioning session 'ended' and was signed as the time marker, eg: Amanda's signed accusation of 1:45 and Amanda's voluntary session of 5:45. In the case of Raffaele, we don't know what time his session ended, only when it began, so that's the time that's given.

But just to clear the haze. Amanda and Raffaele got to the police station at about 10:15. Raffaele was taken away for questioning at about 10:30. Amanda's questioning didn't start until well after 11:00 pm. However, police didn't come into that questioning forearmed with the knowledge that Raffaele had dropped his alibi for Amanda, as that hadn't happened yet. It was some point well into Amanda's questioning that a police runner came over to the team questioning Amanda to inform them that Raffaele had just dropped his alibi for Amanda.

Therefore, Raffaele's session began at about 10:30...at some point well after 11:00, but probably after midnight (we will probably never know the exact time), Raffaele breaks and drops his alibi for Amanda and the team questioning Amanda is informed of it by runner.

 

[Matthew Best]

So what is it referring to on the PMF Timeline when it says this?

2. 1700 Raffaele summoned to the police station. Amanda goes with him and waits in a separate room.

 

[Moss]

Fulcanelli, I think you would do us all a favor if you present sources for that.

 

[Matthew Best]

Fulcanelli isn't going to spoon feed you.

 

[shuttlt]

Fulcanelli, I think you would do us all a favor if you present sources for that.

What bit do you want sourced? We have a source for the time Raffaele's questioning began, for the time Amanda's questioning finished, for the time of her declaration to Mignini. We can infer the approximate time Amanda's questioning began from Raffaele's and the things she got up to in the interrogation room, we know from Amanda that the interrogation didn't get "intense" until after midnight.

 

[Moss]

What bit do you want sourced? We have a source for the time Raffaele's questioning began, for the time Amanda's questioning finished, for the time of her declaration to Mignini. We can infer the approximate time Amanda's questioning began from Raffaele's and the things she got up to in the interrogation room, we know from Amanda that the interrogation didn't get "intense" until after midnight.

I think at this point it is (possibly again) useful to list those sources. Else we come into this old "why should we provide sources when they don't" brouhaha. Documenting things like that doesn't hurt.

 

[Matthew Best]

What bit do you want sourced?

How about this bit:

2. 1700 Raffaele summoned to the police station. Amanda goes with him and waits in a separate room.

 

[shuttlt]

I think at this point it is (possibly again) useful to list those sources. Else we come into this old "why should we provide sources when they don't" brouhaha. Documenting things like that doesn't hurt.

With the exception of the start time of Raffaele's interrogation, everything I mentioned is in Amanda's trial testimony, I believe, whether said by her or in the questions to her from Mignini. If people really are interested I can provide quotes, but this seems to me like a side issue. It's good documentation about when they were and under what circumstance they were summoned that seems to be lacking at the moment.

 

[shuttlt]

This stuff is hard to track down:

The way I understand the timeline of their interrogation is as follows:

Monday November 5

1700 (roughly): Amanda and Raffaele are taken to the police station for further questioning (again as witnesses).

Raffaele is questioned first. This is where he admits that his previous statements to the police were a lot of rubbish, that Amanda had convinced him to lie, and that he did not think about the contradictions, and so on.

2240: Amanda's questioning begins. We don't know too much of the details (Frank of Perugia called these statements "a chaos"; and this is the part where Chris Mellas has alleged Amanda was repeatedly hit) but by 0145, she has said enough that she is now officially a suspect. According to the Court ruling cited above, whatever she said at that time may be used in evidence against other people, but not against Amanda herself, because she made these statements as a witness, not a suspect.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/151530.asp
Since the source is the same FinnMacCool who wrote the shorter PMF timeline it hardly helps.

 

[RoseMontague]

You guys are either confusing me or I am suffering from the Amanda syndrome. Did this subject come up to answer the question of whether Raffaele and Amanda intentionally skipped the memorial service? I think the question should be: "Is there a source that shows they asked the cops for some time away from the questioning to attend this service? If they did and the request was granted, why didn't they attend?

If they intentionally skipped the service perhaps it is bad karma coming back to haunt them. Things may have concluded quite a bit differently if they had attended. And if they had bought a squirrel on the way, even better.

 

[shuttlt]

RoseMontague,

Yes, that certainly is amongst the more interesting questions on this topic. I'm only concentrating on the timings because I've been surprised how difficult it is to get sources for this period and investigating the "they skipped the memorial" angle has defeated me. I've been hoping that once I've got a source for them being asked to come to the police station earlier, everything else will fall into place. The other angle might be the quote about it being suspicious that they were eating pizza when they were called.

It could be that there was no earlier request for them to come in and the "suspicious pizza" thing is just that they were at a friends eating pizza during the memorial.