FYI: You can use the
bub tags to give Wipe Totec a verbal balloon. Vis.
................
Actually my descriptions of Geisler's arguments in my post #1 were very short. He goes into greater detail in his 22 page chapter 11.
http://books.google.com/books?id=PCGhbTrI9QoC&pg=PA275&dq=Geisler+10+Reasons&hl=en&ei=2d7IS7rPMZLitgO6rIT1BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Geisler%2010%20Reasons&f=false
People can read it and make up their own minds. If you live outside the US you won't be able to read the actual pages of the book on the above website, so you might try this website from one of the authors of the book:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51643
Wow...a thousadnd times repost. Is that considered spamming the forum? Talk about breaking a Randi Rule
tm
You falsely imply that the quote was Geisler's total reasoning for the issue whereas he writes another 2 1/2 pages on the topic. And if you believe the NT writers told the truth as I have been giving evidence for throughout this thread (e.g. post 11054 and the links in post 12307) then what he said is perfectly accurate. The apostles were not being martyred because they had faith, they were dying because they had proof. This helps explain the very rapid growth of Christianity "by peaceful means" (as opposed to by military means in Islam) in the very dangerous Roman empire where preaching Christianity could get you killed (not a real good selling point for your religion).
ETA
From the Article "Miracles" by Peter Kreeft
"If Jesus did not really rise from the dead, three questions are unanswerable: Who moved the stone? Who got the body? and Who started the Resurrection myth and why? What profit did the liars get out of their lie?
I will tell you what they got out of it.
They got mocked, hated, sneered and jeered at, exiled, deprived of property and reputation and rights, imprisoned, whipped, tortured, clubbed to a pulp, beheaded, crucified, boiled in oil, sawed in pieces, fed to lions, and cut to ribbons by gladiators If the miracle of the Resurrection did not really happen, then an even more incredible miracle happened: twelve Jewish fishermen invented the world's biggest lie for no reason at all and died for it with joy, as did millions of others. This myth, this lie, this elaborate practical joke transformed lives, gave despairing souls a reason to live and selfish souls a reason to die, gave cynics joy and libertines conscience, put martyrs in the hymns and hymns in the martyrs — all for no reason. A fantastic con job, a myth, a joke."
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0021.html
[Pixy Misa]No.[/Pixy Misa]
Sorry to tell you, every religion, political slant, and other Belief System (BS) gets persecuted to one degree or another. Just because the Early Christians (who were bucking the system of the day) got persecuted is not a sing that there's any validity. Try being a black man in an American town prior to ~1980. I personally know of a few Northern Illinois towns who still had signs at the city limits that read "If you are black, don't let the sun go down on you here.". Do it make the blacks any more noble or special somehow? No. It makes them different.
Try being Jewish in Germany in the 1930's-1940's. Does that make Judiasm the One True Religion? Or how about all the conflicts between Hindus, Muslims and Christians in India. Because people are different, they get persecuted by a certain percentage of the population. At varying times in history, that persecution ebbs and wanes. Get over it.
I'm talking about the first 300 years of its growth. It was by peaceful means unlike Islam. That is very hard to explain in the Roman Empire where people (as Peter Kreeft says in my earlier link) were getting mocked, hated, sneered and jeered at, exiled, deprived of property and reputation and rights, imprisoned, whipped, tortured, clubbed to a pulp, beheaded, crucified, boiled in oil, sawed in pieces, fed to lions, and cut to ribbons by gladiators.
**sniff - sniff** I smell special pleading.
And Thomas Jefferson also got something out of this alleged lie -- He got the motivation to cut out about 900 verses of this alleged lie out of the bible with a razor and paste them in a book and say they were the most moral and sublime teachings ever preached to humanity.
Yeah, cause the rest of it was crap. Even some that he kept was crap.
This argument does not apply to this issue because you have not presented any proof of what you are basically saying -- that the Resurrection was not true.
How can you be mistaken about something like the Resurrection that has not been proven true or false.
Joobz says Luke lied -- that makes Luke a liar according to Joobz doesn't it?
And Simon implies Mark and John might have lied.
What exactly are you talking about. You can't be talking about the Resurrection (which is the main focal point of Christianity) because you have no proof it turned out not to be true.
Hate to break it to ya, Bubbah, you have to provide the evidence FOR the event not us AGAINST. You're the one making the claim, we're just asking you "Oh, yeah?". We're all from Missouri, so Show Me.
No.
No, but all those martyrs dying so soon to the reported resurrection (which is an event in history and not just a philosophy) adds more weight to be put on the scale of evidence. And that's what this thread is about -- evidence -- not my opinion or belief.
Again,
Hate to break it to ya, Bubbah, you have to provide the evidence FOR the event not us AGAINST. You're the one making the claim, we're just asking you "Oh, yeah?". We're all from Missouri, so Show Me.
No. joobz did it for me. Go read his post and try toanswer it honestly, completely and rationally. Hell, considering your record here, I'd be happy if you got one of those. Let's just work on honestly for now. We can get the other two later.
Most Americans believe in God and eternal life but I doubt a large percentage of those would willingly lay down there life for that belief. And also who would publicly preach it if they knew they could be stoned to death or crucified upside down.
So?
This is a false statement, you might want to read this thread.
You mean the thread that has led at least one person to so doubt their faith that they've turned away from the very thing you're trying to argue for? YES! Please read this thread. We'll get the percentage of athiests in the world to go up one whole percentage point by 2012 at theis rate.
You should read post 11054 and the links in post 12307 for starters.
No.
Thomas Jefferson did not assume the Bible is true. But that didn't stop him from saying the teachings of Christ were the most moral and sublime ever preached to humanity (and thus superior to Plato and Socrates). And Sir William Mitchell Ramsay didn't assume the Bible was true when he spent 15 years digging in Biblical lands doing research, and then saying Gospel writer Luke was one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
I have just as much right to "conclude from historical evidence" (not assume as you say) the bible is true as the American Educational system has the right to conclude those historians who wrote about Alexander the Great 350 to 400 years after his death (from which we get the great majority of our info about Alexander the Great) were truthful. In fact I have more of a right since the biblical writers wrote within a lifespan of Christ's death and thus there had to be witnesses alive who could say the writings were false.
Concluding from historical evidence is not circular reasoning. 41 historical documents (31 Christian and 10 non-Christian -- most about Christ and some about Christianity) compared to 10 for Tiberius Caesar (the emperor alive at the time of Christ's life), and 5000 Christian manuscripts compared to 20 manuscripts for the historian Tacitus and 7 for Plato has nothing to do with circular reasoning, it has to do with cold historical evidence and making conclusions based on that cold historical evidence.
You have the right to your own opinion, true. You do not, however, have the right to your own facts.
To repeat many, many, MANY posters who have responded to you everytime you post this stupid, insipid list.....
SO FREAKING WHAT?
