Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Moss]

The worst problem they have, of course, is Curatolo's testimony and I've noticed that Raffaele's lawyers seem to be on course for trying to discredit him on appeal. That's the only eyewitness who specifically places both of them together, near the crimescene, during the time they both said they weren't there. I think the chances of them convincing the court are dim because other people knew that Curatolo was there and his sense of time was relatively precise.

I think the defense wants the testimony of Curatolo thrown out on the basis that his testimony allegedly mentions shuttle buses to different venues. The problem with that is (as was recently stated here) that on the evening in question those venues weren't open. I think that was debated already here, but I have a hard time finding it.


I hope that we all can agree that at the end of the day this whole discussion should be about finding the truth of this case. Both the victim and her family and friends deserve it. And that should IMO be the main issue.
That means that whatever evidence comes up should be examined and evaluated with an open mind. If it exonerates Raffaele and Amanda that is fine, if it indicates them that is also fine.
I had moments in this discussion where I reacted with the proverbial knee-jerk "that can't be right!". The "them against us" mentality also played a part. But I don't think this is a team game. And I'm rather glad that this stuff seems to break up a bit of late. It gets in the way.
I think I'm getting better at thinking first and reacting later, but I admit it is a tough job in this thread.

 

[Kestrel]

When she was eating Pizza seems to be being contested by Bruce. Hopefully he will provide some more details.

According to this source, it was three in the afternoon.

It was three in the afternoon and Sollecito was eating a pizza. But Sollecito wasn't alone. Amanda Knox was also sharing the pizza.

 

[Alt+F4]

According to this source, it was three in the afternoon.

From that link:

The third incident, according to Giobbi, was the most disturbing. It occurred when the police picked up Rafaele Sollecito for questioning, three days after Kercher's body was discovered. Police located Sollecito at a cafe. It was three in the afternoon and Sollecito was eating a pizza. But Sollecito wasn't alone. Amanda Knox was also sharing the pizza. This so-called "meeting" helped convince Giobbi the couple had acted together in the murder.

According to Amanda's testimony Rafaelle was not "picked up" by the police. She said he received a phone call asking or telling him to come down to the Questura (police station?) for questioning.

 

[shuttlt]

Not a direct quote and comes right before a direct quote from Paul Ciolino. I think we can find something that will find more universal acceptance.

 

[Alt+F4]

Not a direct quote and comes right before a direct quote from Paul Ciolino. I think we can find something that will find more universal acceptance.

The cleaning lady testified that they were both in Rafaelle's apartment when she showed up to clean that day at around 2pm. She doesn't say how long they stayed. Very easy point to clear up on appeal by asking her for more details.

 

[stilicho]

This Mark Chat person seems to have been in both the murder scene and in the team that found the knife at Raffaele's. If this isn't an error of some sort Halides1 should be happy.

Any thoughts anyone?

I'd put this into the "Provide Relevance" category.

 

[shuttlt]

From the PMF timeline:

2000 Meredith's vigil held in Perugia, sans Amanda and Raffaele

2215 After having dinner, Amanda and Raffaele arrive at the police station

2230 Raffaele, being questioned at this point, breaks and begins to change his story

Not that that is beyond dispute.

 

[Kestrel]

Not a direct quote and comes right before a direct quote from Paul Ciolino. I think we can find something that will find more universal acceptance.

Two of you felt it was necessary to attack the 3 PM claim, but so far nobody has come up with actual evidence that they shared a pizza at some later time.

 

[Fiona]

What did Amanda say in court, Kestrel?

 

[shuttlt]

Two of you felt it was necessary to attack the 3 PM claim, but so far nobody has come up with actual evidence that they shared a pizza at some later time.

Could be that it's a myth. I'd be stunned if it is, but it's possible.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Wasn't there a whole argument in relation to the LCN DNA on the knife that two different teams searched the two locations, hence no possibility of Meredith's DNA getting accidentally transferred (not that it's likely)? This quote seems to me to undermine that simple dismissal of contamination between the two locations by the forensic teams. This Chat fellow saw Meredith's body at the crime scene and was involved in the discovery of the knife.

So, he went straight from the cottage to Raffaele's apartment?

If not, then this becomes incredibly irrelevant. Also, why would he have managed to carry only Meredith's DNA and not the DNA of, I don't know, Raffaele (who's DNA was in such abundance in the dust that it was the 2nd most abundant DNA on the bra clasp), or any of the team members, or even his own?

 

[Ducky]

Back to bras yet?

 

[Kestrel]

From the PMF timeline:


Not that that is beyond dispute.

A skeptic should note that the PMF timeline doesn't include sources for the listed times.

 

[shuttlt]

So, he went straight from the cottage to Raffaele's apartment?

If not, then this becomes incredibly irrelevant. Also, why would he have managed to carry only Meredith's DNA and not the DNA of, I don't know, Raffaele (who's DNA was in such abundance in the dust that it was the 2nd most abundant DNA on the bra clasp), or any of the team members, or even his own?

You're preaching to the choir, but there are people here who think Amanda may have tracked the LCN DNA back from the shared bathroom.

 

[shuttlt]

A skeptic should note that the PMF timeline doesn't include sources for the listed times.

Quite, but then again each item may be the result of cross referencing multiple sources. The timeline is the result of quite a bit of effort. We just need to track back and see whether an error has been made somewhere.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

You're preaching to the choir, but there are people here who think Amanda may have tracked the LCN DNA back from the shared bathroom.

Well, if DNA evidence is this easily moved around, that pretty much renders any DNA evidence ever used completely null and void.


[sarcasm]
Looks like someone needs to notify the U.S. Justice Dept so they can open those prison gates [/sarcasm]

 

[Kestrel]

What did Amanda say in court, Kestrel?

If you know what Amanda said in court, how about providing us with a quote?

 

[LiamG.]

LiamG,

There are many people who I think dispute many of your indisputable facts, Bruce for example. There really are very few facts that are not disputed beyond the facts that Meredith is dead and Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy are in prison.

Hello,

actually i only assumed as a fact that there was a bloody footprint on the bathmat. I think this is undisputable .

The other thing i assumed as a fact, is, that the scene was rearranged and staged.
I agree, that this is far more complex than the simple footprint on the bathmat.
But regarding everything I`ve read so far about this case, i would be far more than astonished if someday it would be proven, that the crime scene was never rearranged and staged.
I`ve heard , that the Massei report will be out translated in English soon, so I`m really looking forward how people like Bruce will challenge the reasons of the judge about the staged crime scene.
I personally haven`t read neither the Micheli nor the Massei report, but I remember to have read somehwhere, that in the Micheli report was written, that the bra(?) (correct me if I`m wrong) was taken off after the murder. The reason, why it was believed, that this was done after the murder is because there was no blood on the place on the skin of MK, where she wore her bra, but on the places on the skin surrounding the position of the bra there was blood. Correct me if I did get that fact wrong. But if I remember that correctly, I think you don`t have to be smart to come to the conclusion, that the removing of the bra was done after the blood had dried, thus making it obvious, that the scene was indeed rearranged. I would be really impressed, if someone could give an explenation how that could have happened without someone doing this a long time after the attack on MK.
As I said in my first post I clearly don`t see myself as an expert in this case, I just tried to make reasonable conclusions by assuming some things as facts. If someone can clearly prove, that the crime scene wasn`t rearranged and staged, you can toss my first post. But as long as this hasn`t happened, I think my first post is valid.

LiamG.

 

[Fiona]

I have posted it in this thread before, Kestrel. Are you saying they had "dinner" at 3 pm ?

 

[Kestrel]

I`ve heard , that the Massei report will be out translated in English soon, so I`m really looking forward how people like Bruce will challenge the reasons of the judge about the staged crime scene.

The Massei report came to several conclusions about the crime scene that have been discussed in this thread. For example, the judge concluded that the rock was thrown from inside to break the window.

This is a clear indication that the laws of physics can be disregarded Italian court decisions.