Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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All the regions below that "layer" is composed of silicon plasma rather than neon plasma.
The shape of the sunspot is related to the upwelling silicon plasma in the umbra.
There is "convection" happening in the umbra region too, but since it's composed of a different type of plasma it doesn't emit white light at the rate.

If the photosphere is neon plasma, and sunspots are silicon plasma, then the sunspots would have to be much hotter than the surrounding neon in order to have buoyancy and convection, not colder as we observe. They wouldn't be darker, they would be brighter.
 
As I follow this thread, I have attempted to understand why someone without qualifications and real knowledge would persist in debating in this manner. He is debating accomplished specialists... .

Who? Mr. "What flying stuff?" The only thing he seems to be 'accomplished at' is character assassination and personal attacks. If he's such the expert, have him actually *EXPLAIN* something in the RD image in terms of solar physics.
 
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Tim Thompson, puttin' the E in JREF since 2008.

Excellent posts. Kudos to GeeMack and Ziggurat as well for their work on this subject. That's why I love this place; no matter what the subject, there's someone here with relevant expertise.

What expertise? All I hear from these guys is "What flying stuff?" and "What white light images"? Lets see them explain the flying stuff and other details of the RD image, and/or the white light image I cited earlier. The coronal loops come up and through the photosphere as the white light image demonstrates so LMSAL's claim about the location of the bottom of the loops cannot be correct.
 
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If the photosphere is neon plasma, and sunspots are silicon plasma, then the sunspots would have to be much hotter than the surrounding neon in order to have buoyancy and convection, not colder as we observe. They wouldn't be darker, they would be brighter.

No because the silicon layer is cooler to start with. As it "heats up" from the activity near the surface, it expands. The temperature however was lower to start with, so it's still "cooler" than the layer above it just as parts of the photosphere plasma might reach say 7000K causing that plasma to expand, but it is still not "hotter than" the chromosphere.
 
If the photosphere is neon plasma, and sunspots are silicon plasma, then the sunspots would have to be much hotter than the surrounding neon in order to have buoyancy and convection, not colder as we observe. They wouldn't be darker, they would be brighter.

Look at the images again and notice the bottoms of the penumbral filaments. They "wiggle around" at the bottom where they "meet up" with the plasma in the umbra. If there really were a series of "convecting streams", the filament should extend down the sides down into the sunspot till we can't see them anymore, and the light in the filaments should either become lighter or darker depending on their "Explaination" at the bottom of the filament. Neither of those things happen. The "layer" simply ends at a specific 'depth' and none of the filaments extend down below about 3000KM into the umbra. The edges of the bottom of the filaments are sharp, clear and unhampered by the plasma in the umbra in terms of visually distorting the penumbral filaments. The image doesn't "blur" the bottoms of the filaments and they are not darker near the bottom as Tim's suggestion would require, not do they "extend down" into the umbra on the side as they would if that plasma was "hot" and only the plasma in the umbra were cool.
 
What expertise? All I hear from these guys is "What flying stuff?" and "What white light images"? Lets see them explain the flying stuff and other details of the RD image, and/or the white light image I cited earlier. The coronal loops come up and through the photosphere as the white light image demonstrates so LMSAL's claim about the location of the bottom of the loops cannot be correct.

I know you've got an axe to grind with GeeMack, and he with you, but this from him is right on point:

If you want a depth of the photosphere in kilometers, it is estimated to become opaque to almost all light at around 400 kilometers, and with the most sophisticated currently available technology, around the 1.56 micron infrared wavelength, the absolute deepest we can see is about 450 kilometers. The source? Haimin Wang, professor of physics at the New Jersey Institute of Technology, from his paper Near-Infrared Observations at 1.56 Microns of the 2003 October 29 X10 White-Light Flare.

So, we could say the photosphere is 450 kilometers deep, if we really, really stretch. And that physically impossible solid surface of yours, Michael, you claim exists at 0.995R to 0.997R? That's about 2000 to 3500 kilometers deep, or over a thousand miles deeper than any light at any wavelength is known to escape. You are not seeing a surface of any sort in any solar image, no matter where it was obtained and regardless of how it is processed. It's impossible.

So is the link from Dancing David:

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/sun/photosphere.html

Plain fact: we can't capture light from below ~450km of the sun's atmosphere with any imaging technology we currently possess, period. You cannot claim to see below that in any of the images you present.
 
No because the silicon layer is cooler to start with. As it "heats up" from the activity near the surface, it expands. The temperature however was lower to start with, so it's still "cooler" than the layer above it

It doesn't matter if it expands. It needs to be lower density than the neon in order to convect up THROUGH the neon. And in your model, it wouldn't be. Even at the same temperature as the neon. Even at considerably higher temperature. Really, Michael, this is a basic physics fail.
 
We are correct, the filaments do as a matter of observed fact extend down into the photosphere, both along the inner rim of the penumbra, where the filaments rise out of the umbra, and along the outer edge of the penumbra, where the filaments turn and sink back down into the surrounding photosphere.

That much we actually seem to agree on.

The filaments do not "end abruptly", they "turn abruptly", and it is obviously not possible to tell the difference between the two if all you have to go by is the movie.

Actually you can see the bottom of the filaments move during the movie and some of them "turn" a little, but some of them don't do anything of the sort as the top section of the sunspot in that second image demonstrates. The filaments don't extend down in the "light parts" the way they would if we were looking to two streams of plasma, hot and cold. Instead the whole layer *ENDS* by about a depth of 3000KM. There's no "magic point" where the filaments become opaque either. Some of them are pulled far down into the umbra by the sinking plasma, whereas some of them do not. We can see the bottom of all the filaments, even the longest ones just as well as the ends of the shortest ones.

It is absolutely not true that we would expect to see white light along the convection tube, under these circumstances, from deeper in the sun because the plasma is too opaque.

No, it's not "opaque" to white light in that umbra. We can see the filaments extend down into the umbra very clearly, and we can observe the ends of the filaments very clearly. They don't "Fade" to either black or white, they simply "terminate" at a specific "depth".

Instead of relying on amateur guess work and science by "pretty picture",

...you decided to utterly ignore the million dollar images, and toss out some "pretty math" that fails the very first visual "test" we put it to.
 
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That reference agrees with other sources putting the photosphere at ~400 kilometers thick. Using that data...

Solar Photosphere as a Function of Depth
Depth (km)|% Light from this Depth|Temperature (K)|Pressure (bars)
0|99.5|4465|6.8 x 10-3
100|97|4780|1.7 x 10-2
200|89|5180|3.9 x 10-2
250|80|5455|5.8 x 10-2
300|64|5840|8.3 x 10-2
350|37|6420|1.2 x 10-1
375|18|6910|1.4 x 10-1
400|4|7610|1.6 x 10-1
Source: Fraknoi, Morrison, and Wolf, Voyages through the Universe

... and Michael's claim that his mythical solid iron surface begins somewhere between 2100 and 3500 kilometers down, approximately .997R to .995R, we can see from this chart that there is minimally 1500 kilometers, and much as 3000 kilometers of opaque plasma between the bottom of the photosphere and the top of Michael's claimed surface.

opaquesun2.jpg


The left portion of the chart above shows the percentage of transparency through about the top 500 kilometers of the photosphere. The chart is reproduced on the right side and scaled to show the depth to 3500 kilometers. The dark red portion at the bottom starts around 2100 kilometers deep, or about .997R. That is the shallow end of where Michael claims the solid surface begins. The red area goes to the bottom of the chart at 3500 kilometers, or .995R, the depth Michael usually claims as the location of his mythical iron surface.

No solar imaging techinique or any method used to process the images can possibly allow one to see anything at the depth of Michael's claimed solid surface. Seeing any such surface (the existence of which, by the way, has been shown to be impossible according to the laws of thermodynamics, shown to be nonexistent using the science of helioseismology, and shown to be impossible according to general relativity) would require some sort of paranormal ability like x-ray vision to see through that 900 to 1800 mile thick layer of opaque plasma.
 
What expertise? All I hear from these guys is "What flying stuff?" and "What white light images"? Lets see them explain the flying stuff and other details of the RD image, and/or the white light image I cited earlier. The coronal loops come up and through the photosphere as the white light image demonstrates so LMSAL's claim about the location of the bottom of the loops cannot be correct.


The "flying stuff" in any image you use to support your crackpot claim is irrelevant. That is my position now, and has always been my position. Your continuing to use that issue as the foundation of your temper tantrums is childish and dishonest.

Here are the facts, Michael: You cannot see any solid surface in any solar image. Your qualifications to understand solar imagery have been challenged, and you have refused to demonstrate that you have any such qualifications. The evidence clearly shows that you do not know what you're talking about. Your argument has failed. Deal with it.
 
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Actually you can see the bottom of the filaments move during the movie and some of them "turn" a little, but some of them don't do anything of the sort as the top section of the sunspot in that second image demonstrates. The filaments don't extend down in the "light parts" the way they would if we were looking to two streams of plasma, hot and cold. Instead the whole layer *ENDS* by about a depth of 3000KM.


... in your unsubstantiated opinion. Your opinion, however, has been shown to be unqualified. You do not understand solar imagery, so your opinion, as evidence, is worthless. And in this case, it looks like you're making up that 3000 kilometer number. As Tim already mentioned, you don't get to make up crap as you go along. That's not how science works. Your argument has failed, on every level.
 
No, it's not "opaque" to white light in that umbra. We can see the filaments extend down into the umbra very clearly, and we can observe the ends of the filaments very clearly. They don't "Fade" to either black or white, they simply "terminate" at a specific "depth".


A "specific depth" would be a quantitative measurement. You have never offered legitimate quantitative support for anything you claim as evidence, and in this case, as usual, you have no such measurement. You're making this up. It's fiction. Your argument here is crap.
 
What expertise? All I hear from these guys is "What flying stuff?" and "What white light images"? Lets see them explain the flying stuff and other details of the RD image, and/or the white light image I cited earlier. The coronal loops come up and through the photosphere as the white light image demonstrates so LMSAL's claim about the location of the bottom of the loops cannot be correct.

I certainly claim no expertise in solar science, but I do understand the posts of the three posters I mentioned. They are clear, concise, and demonstrate quite conclusively that there is not, nor can there be, a solid surface on the sun.

I can follow your posts as well, but in my (again, admittedly unschooled) opinion your proposal obviously violates the second law of thermodynamics, not to mention the problem that the lowest temperature ever observed on the sun still exceeds the boiling point of iron.

Even my high-school science background gives me enough information to see that your theory is untenable.
 
Photosphere, Sunspots and Bright Points

It is absolutely not true that we would expect to see white light along the convection tube, under these circumstances, from deeper in the sun because the plasma is too opaque.
I said it this way, "under these circumstances", so I could lead into a related topic, which I will present here. Mozina assumes that the sun below the photosphere must be cooler than the photosphere, partly out of unreasonable preconception, and partly by seriously misinterpreting the images & physics of sunspots. As I have already shown extensively elsewhere, scientists can derive the temperature profile with depth of the photosphere, primarily through observations of the bright solar limb projected against the dark background of empty space (Post 915 and links therein). This is enough by itself to refute Mozina's claims, but the high temperature of the subphotosphere is revealed in other ways as well.

Photospheric Bright Points
See Astronomy Picture of the Day for April 16 2010 and the associated research paper Magnetic bright points in the quiet sun; Sanchez Almeida, et al., 2010, accepted for publication in Astrophysical Journal Letters. In a field of view 68.5 x 68.5 arcseconds the authors count 2380 bright points concentrated in the dark lanes of relatively cool downwelling plasma between the bright upwelling granular cores. These intergranular bright points were discovered in 1974 (Mehltretter, 1974) and are thought to represent a significant fraction of the unresolved photospheric magnetic flux, where "unresolved" refers to magnetic structures of angular size below the spatial resolution capabilities of solar telescopes. The bright points are thought to represent the ends of spaghetti like magnetic structures that reach into the hotter subphotosphere. While the dark lane material around the points is downwelling, the material inside the magnetic filaments is upwelling, hot subphotosphere plasma, which explains why the bright points are bright.

We have known for quite a while that there are magnetic structures, supporting kilo-Gauss magnetic fields, that have not been spatially resolved (Beckers, 1977; Solanki, 1993). It has been assumed, because it makes perfectly good sense and is consistent with observations and plasma physics, that the bright points are magnetic structures, despite their being below the spatial resolution of photospheric magnetic field measurements (e.g., de Wijn, et al., 2008). Furthermore, recent higher spatial resolution photospheric magnetic field studies continue to correlate the bright points with still unresolved magnetic structures (e.g., Viticchie, et al., 2009). So the assumption that bright points represent magnetic structures that reach into the subphotosphere is not simply an arbitrary assumption, but rather an assumption based on a combination of increasingly high resolution observations of the solar photosphere and well known plasma physics.

So these bright points represent yet another line of evidence pointing to a subphotosphere that is hotter, not cooler, than the observed photosphere. This is also consistent with the independent derivation of the photospheric temperature profile based on solar limb observations.

Umbral Bright points
Bright points, much the same as those discussed above, are not relegated only to the dark lanes between photospheric granules. They also occur in the dark umbra and penumbra of sunspots (e.g., Prasad Choudhary & Shimizu, 2010). These bright points are also associated with small spatial scale magnetic fields and are also hotter than the surrounding material. There is no reason to believe that these bright points are any different than the bright points found in the quiet photosphere. These bright points are also windows into the deeper & hotter photosphere. Note that umbral bright points are consistently hotter with increasing distance from the center of the umbra, exactly what one would expect given the standard model of sunspots.

About the Photosphere
Let me briefly summarize the standard science of the solar photosphere. We derive a temperature profile with depth from limb observations and conclude that the temperature increases with depth, all the way to the limit of observability. This conclusion is supported by independent observations of bright points in the quiet solar photosphere, as well as the umbrae & penumbrae of sunspots. This conclusion is further supported by simple, ordinary physics; if you compress something, it heats up. The subphotosphere must be warmer than the photosphere because it has all the weight of the photosphere pressing down on it. Hence, even if the sun had no internal heat source, it would still be required by physics that the subphotosphere be hotter, not cooler. However, if we add the obvious internal heat source by nuclear fusion (or any other internal mechanism), then once again the outflow of energy from the deep interior requires that the subphotosphere be hotter, not cooler. Against this impressive array of scientific evidence, Mr. Mozina offers no science or physics based argument of any kind; rather, he has only his subjective & biased interpretation of qualitative (non-numeric) image data to offer. I think there can be no doubt at this point but that the Mozina argument concerning the nature of the solar photosphere is as completely refuted as an argument can be.
 
No because the silicon layer is cooler to start with. As it "heats up" from the activity near the surface, it expands. The temperature however was lower to start with, so it's still "cooler" than the layer above it just as parts of the photosphere plasma might reach say 7000K causing that plasma to expand, but it is still not "hotter than" the chromosphere.

I didn't say hotter than the chromosphere. I said hotter than the neon layer that you claim it's "upwelling" through.

If the lower silicon layer is denser and cooler than the upper neon layer, why does it rise in your model?
 
A little self consistency would be nice.

The filaments extend to a depth of anywhere from 2000 (typically 3000) to 3750 KM and then abruptly end right there. There's no dimming or brightening going on along the filament as it descends into the umbra and no blurriness either. There is no magic point where the filaments all blur to nothing, in fact some of them extend a long way (twice as far?) into the umbra compared to others. There's no indication of "hot and cold running convection zones" where the bright regions extend *ALL THE WAY DOWN THE HOLE*. Instead the filaments all terminate at a specific point, no blurriness, no dimming, no single location where they all go dark. We can clearly see the ends of the filaments wiggling around at the bottom where they meet up with not BRIGHTER plasma, but simply "dark plasma".
 
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I didn't say hotter than the chromosphere. I said hotter than the neon layer that you claim it's "upwelling" through.

If the lower silicon layer is denser and cooler than the upper neon layer, why does it rise in your model?

It is being heated by the discharge process in the lower atmosphere and typically by volcanic activity from the surface. That extra heat is transferred to the silicon plasma and causes it to become less dense and rise up into the upper atmosphere. If there is enough heat (typically volcanic activity is required) then the plasma becomes hotter (than the ambient temp of say 3-4 thousand Kelvin, and thins out and rises up quickly in the atmosphere. The density gradient between the hot silicon and neon isn't great enough to stop the upwelling of the hot silicon plasma. Once it reaches the lighter helium chromosphere however, it has no where to go but to "fan out" which is why we see angular indentations in the sunspot, where the silicon plasma has displaced the neon. Along the sides of the sunspot however, the plasma eventually cools off and slides back down along the filaments. That second video is extremely interesting, particularly along the sides of the umbra. Lots of action going on there.

Eventually the surface volcanic activity ends, the discharge process "settles down" and the heat is more evenly distributed around the atmosphere and the neon layer closes up again.

The point here is that the mainstream's position doesn't even jive with *ONE* sunspot image, and I haven't even gotten out the "good stuff" where Hinode images show the same exact pattern of "layering" in various wavelengths.
 
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http://solarb.msfc.nasa.gov/movies/xrt_pfi_gband_20061113.mpg

FYI, I still haven't heard even one of you comment on the fact that when the coronal loops are overlaid on a sunspot image, the loops and penumbral filaments line up perfectly, angles and everything with flow of coronal loops. If the loops are located under the photosphere, that makes perfect sense, and we have an excellent physical alignment between the loops and the filaments, most likely related to which "path" provided the least resistance and the effect that has on the photosphere. If however the loops all originate *ABOVE* the photosphere as LMSAL claims, there's no reason for the loops to follow the contours of the filaments. Are you all saying that this alignment of angles and loops with the penumbral filament angles is purely a coincidence?
 
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The "flying stuff" in any image you use to support your crackpot claim is irrelevant. That is my position now, and has always been my position. Your continuing to use that issue as the foundation of your temper tantrums is childish and dishonest..

The only thing that is "dishonest" is the fact that you run like hell from every detail of that RD image as it relates to solar physics. The other side of your "dishonesty" is having claimed to have "explained every pixel" of the LMSAL RD movie when in fact you haven't "explained" anything except the light source, something I personally had to tell you over five years ago. Let's hear your "explanation" in terms of solar processes and see how your relate those solar processes to the "flying stuff" and the "persistent patterns" in the image.
 
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