Obama and the Gay Military...

[ponderingturtle]

How could you care about healthcare when thousands are still dying in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Thousands are less than tens of thousands. Also this is not something that congress has much to do with.

How could you care about healthcare when the deficit is ballooning out of countrol?

Haven't you learned from Reagan, deficits are no big deal.

How can you care about healthcare when our schools are failing our children?

Because they are not killing them

Humans have developed the ability to prioritize and multitask, the government can do the same. In fact, we have different committees for that very purpose.

And how many massively divisive things can congress deal with at the same time? Like a lot of the real world, you get stuff done by doing one job at a time. The people who think they can do many jobs at once tend to do them all really badly.

And as my mother always told me, if something is important to you you make the time, otherwise it won't happen.

And why do you think your mother was talking about passing controversial laws in congress?

If Obama pushed for this and lost, what would happen to it then? Would you be satisfied with a failed attempt to repeal DADT that was rushed through congress to make time for it?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, you make the time...but you don't get ahead of yourself or nothing will happen either.

No he could have pushed and gotten a simple up or down vote and then ignored the repeal of DADT for another 10 years.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Yes, you make the time...but you don't get ahead of yourself or nothing will happen either.

No, I think waiting for all major problems to be solved before pushing forward will get nothing.

 

[Complexity]

That you don't care about thousands of dead.

You are so far off. Have you no sense of justice?

No you hate so many of the same things, that is common enough ground, they are party that is at least currently based on fear.

Nonsense.

Good then if you have any existing conditions you should know that they should never be covered again.

Thanks for being glad that I don't have any health insurance.

I got paid for working only three months last year, and those were as a contractor. The company that I had worked for before and that I had COBRA from moved without informing me. A COBRA premium payment was returned to me in the mail two weeks after it was mailed. I lost COBRA coverage as a result. I am regarded as uninsurable due to my diabetes and am without health insurance as a result.

It occurred to me to sue my former company for behavior that resulted in my loss of COBRA coverage, but I don't have the money for the legal fees that would be necessary.

If I were to have a major medical emergency while uninsured, I would most likely decline surgery or major theraputic interventions. I want to leave some 401k money to a friend and do not want to end up bankrupted due to medical debts.

I hope to become partially insured again once I am hired as an employee at the startup that I am working at as a contractor, but it would be a year or more before my current medical conditions would be covered.

I haven't gone to my doctor for more than a year. I need to, but if I go any anything new is discovered, it won't be insurable for some time because it would be a pre-existing condition. Similarly for my eye doctor and dentist. I need new glasses or contacts badly, but need an exam first, so they have to wait. I've weaned myself off of my anti-depressant because my doctor won't refill it without an office visit any further. I've got two months of prescription left on my diabetes medication. I may have to start reducing dosage on that to make it last longer.

The past few years have been harsh enough in some respects that I think my life expectancy has been reduced significantly, especially due to delays in medical testing and treatment. I think five more years would be wonderful, ten outstanding, especially if I am in relatively good health for most of them.

So, ponderingturtle, thanks once again for your pleasure in my being uninsured at the moment.

P.S. I didn't write this to bitch about my personal situation. It is what it is and I'm ok with it. Many important things have improved tremendously for me over the past year.

 

[Bill Thompson]

If I am wrong and we go along with what I have in mind, there is no great loss.

If you are wrong and we go along with what you have in mind there is tremendous, uncalculatable and horrific loss.

The military is not in the business of fairness and social correctness and taking into consideration not hurting the feelings of their servicemen and women. If that is the case with the military in your country, then arguably your country is less secure.

On the flip side, we overlook the "A" in "DADT". Granting the drill sergeants and petty officers the green flag to ask will cause more stress to homosexuals than liberty and freedom and happiness. The way things are currently, they cannot ask. It can be argued that is better and more civil this way. You are in the military to serve, not chat about your same sex lovers and you are not in the miltary to ask about it either. Changing DADT changes that and that change cuts both ways.

Something else. If you have to dissect some ones posting into short sentences, sound bytes and even words, you have lost. Taking sentences out of context and attacking what you INVENT to be what they say -- instead of the final point they are actually making -- is attacking the arguer, not the argument. Just because you do not like what I say (because it makes you see the world is not fair) does not mean I am incorrect. If you refuse to listen to someone's opposing point and only want to attack them personally, or HOW they post, or even their sexual orientation, instead of their ideas, then you have admitted to me that you are on the loosing side of the issue and you lack the courage to admit it.

Something else. If there is even a debate on this issue, it is not going to happen. Perception is everything. If military preceive it to be a bad idea, it is a bad idea. It is the preception that makes it wrong.

 

[D'rok]

If I am wrong and we go along with what I have in mind, there is no great loss.

If you are wrong and we go along with what you have in mind there is tremendous, uncalculatable and horrific loss.

False dichotomy. Even bad results aren't necessarily going to be apocalyptic.

 

[Complexity]

I've been thinking about what people (excluding one whose posts I refuse to read) have been saying in this thread, especially in response to my posts.

I accept no delay in according gays, lesbians, and other non-straight people the same rights, respect, and perogatives that straight people have.

I reject utilitarian reasoning regarding civil rights.

I refuse to associate with institutions, groups, or individuals who will not accept me for who I am.

I withdraw from all relationships with those who choose bigotry over justice, be they government, society, family, or friends. By their behavior, they have relinquished any claims that they thought they had on me.

I will not vote for anyone because he or she is the lesser of two evils - I will require that the people I vote for be good.

As I said before, if the U.S. government and the American people don't want me, they don't get me.

 

[cwalner]

I withdraw from all relationships with those who choose bigotry over justice, be they government, society, family, or friends. By their behavior, they have relinquished any claims that they thought they had on me.

I am curious about this statement. If taken to its fullest, this would mean that you would refuse to date a guy who wished to remain in the closet. Is that the case?

 

[Complexity]

I am curious about this statement. If taken to its fullest, this would mean that you would refuse to date a guy who wished to remain in the closet. Is that the case?

That interpretation wasn't my intention, for I wouldn't suggest that someone remaining in the closet is 'choosing bigotry over justice'.

It does mean that I've had it with the American government, the great majority of the American people, some of my family, and some of my friends.

Dating someone in the closet could be difficult and frustrating, but not against my principles.

 

[cwalner]

If I am wrong and we go along with what I have in mind, there is no great loss.

If you are wrong and we go along with what you have in mind there is tremendous, uncalculatable and horrific loss.

Yeah, great, wonderful.

1. Pascal just called and he wants his Wager back.

2. Pascal's Wager has been fairly thoroughly debunked for some time now.

 

[ponderingturtle]

You are so far off. Have you no sense of justice?

They why do you want him to put repealing DADT ahead of healthcare reform?

 

[zooterkin]

They why do you want him to put repealing DADT ahead of healthcare reform?

In what way does one depend on the other?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I've been thinking about what people (excluding one whose posts I refuse to read) have been saying in this thread, especially in response to my posts.

I accept no delay in according gays, lesbians, and other non-straight people the same rights, respect, and perogatives that straight people have.

I reject utilitarian reasoning regarding civil rights.

And so to get those rights you are happy to engage in counter productive activities that will delay the actual acceptance of those rights for years?

Do you think that the failed vote for gay marriage in NY was helpful?

 

[ponderingturtle]

In what way does one depend on the other?

Because they both will require a lot of politicking and have a lot of resistance from the same people, and he only has so much political capital to spend. And building a case that the military doesn't want DADT is a good way to start.

 

[Complexity]

ponderingturtle - I think I've said all I'm going to say to you.

I don't remember you being this way in the past. Too bad.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I've been thinking about what people (excluding one whose posts I refuse to read) have been saying in this thread, especially in response to my posts.

I accept no delay in according gays, lesbians, and other non-straight people the same rights, respect, and perogatives that straight people have.

--

As I said before, if the U.S. government and the American people don't want me, they don't get me.

You are doing both Admiral Mullen and President Obama a disservice with this attitude. They are working for a change. I expect they will succeed. See my post upthread a bit.

I grasp that you are angry and frustrated with how you've been treated, I'd be as well I were I in your shoes. But "the US government and the American people not wanting" does not seem to fit -- I wonder at the point of that closing to your expression of frustation.

IIRC, you are too old for military service, and might be 4F due to diabetes.

DR

 

[D'rok]

@Complexity

Hang in there. Change is coming.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/15/AR2010041505502.html

 

[Complexity]

@Complexity

Hang in there. Change is coming.

Thanks for the link! That is very good news. One of a thousand steps, but a step nonetheless.

I remember the horrible behavior of a hospital in Florida to a gay or lesbian partner of a patient.

 

[Complexity]

You are doing both Admiral Mullen and President Obama a disservice with this attitude. They are working for a change. I expect they will succeed. See my post upthread a bit.

I grasp that you are angry and frustrated with how you've been treated, I'd be as well I were I in your shoes. But "the US government and the American people not wanting" does not seem to fit -- I wonder at the point of that closing to your expression of frustation.

IIRC, you are too old for military service, and might be 4F due to diabetes.

DR

I hope that I am wrong about Obama. Perhaps he will accomplish some or much of what I think he should. I'd be happy to be shown to be wrong.

Even if Obama does everything he's promised or hinted to do with regard to civil rights, it won't go far enough - he's opposed to marriage for gays and lesbians. I also have several issues with him apart from civil rights.

I'm not eligible for (and not interested in) military service. What I am eligible for (and no longer interested in) is engaging in research that would support or enable aspects of the government, defense industry, intelligence community, or military. The problems that I research have significant applications in some intelligence and military areas.

If they don't want people like me, they won't get me - in any capacity.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

So, Complexity - your problem isn't that Obama's not doing anything...it's that he's not doing it fast enough?