Another strange arrest in backwards Middle East

[ddt]

I don't care about proverbs, you can always find one that contradicts the other. Fancy platitudes is what they are.

Yeah right. Those two lines summed up what sgtbaker and Hellbound have been explaining in much more words in their posts.

 

[Hellbound]

So I'm a right-wing fundie because I find it strange that in 2010 a couple got arrested for kissing.

Great.

No. Hold the straw please.

I made the comparison because you can't seem to seperate the issue of morality (and I do think the law is outdated and wrong, on a moral basis) and legality (that the couple was in a sovereign nation and either through willfulness or ignorance violated it's laws, which means I have no problem with them being punished for it).

Which is the same thing (the same conflation of realms, so to speak) that leads people to promote a national religion, or ban homosexuals, or similar "morality law" pushes.

 

[ddt]

So I'm a right-wing fundie because I find it strange that in 2010 a couple got arrested for kissing.

Great.

In Dubai. You'd be right to find that strange in Canada, yes.

Now try stepping into St. Peter's wearing shorts.

 

[sgtbaker]

Dress codes are a violation of human rights and a form of forced modesty. Ban clothing!

 

[Pardalis]

I made the comparison because you can't seem to seperate the issue of morality (and I do think the law is outdated and wrong, on a moral basis) and legality (that the couple was in a sovereign nation and either through willfulness or ignorance violated it's laws, which means I have no problem with them being punished for it).

Good thing they will only get prison time and a fine, what if they got beaten or executed, would you be OK with that too?

Which is the same thing (the same conflation of realms, so to speak) that leads people to promote a national religion, or ban homosexuals, or similar "morality law" pushes.

But isn't this exactly what the Dubai government is doing?

So it's OK if they do it?

 

[Mark6]

Pardalis, can you answer this question:

Now that you know Dubai arrests people for kissing in public, what do you plan to do about it?

Evidently, Sgtbaker's and DDT's answer ("Do not go to Dubai, or if you do then take time to learn their laws, and obey them") is not acceptable to you. So what are you going to do? Picket Dubais' embassy? Start an Internet campaign? Go to Dubai and deliberately get arrested?

Unless you intend to do SOMETHING other than "not visit Dubai", you are not morally superior in any way to people who choose to obey laws they disagree with.

 

[Pardalis]

Now that you know Dubai arrests people for kissing in public, what do you plan to do about it?

Stay as far away as possible from Dubai or any similar countries.

Evidently, Sgtbaker's and DDT's answer ("Do not go to Dubai, or if you do then take time to learn their laws, and obey them") is not acceptable to you.

Re-read the OP. I gave that answer from the get-go:

Remind me to never set foot in the Middle East.

Go to Dubai and deliberately get arrested?

That would be too heroic for me.

Unless you intend to do SOMETHING other than "not visit Dubai", you are not morally superior in any way to people who choose to obey laws they disagree with.

I do consider myself morally superior to the Dubai government, thank you.

 

[chillzero]

It's Dubai, just holding hands must be considered obscene over there. Or just walking side-by-side with a female.

You saw what they were doing, did you?

So I'm a right-wing fundie because I find it strange that in 2010 a couple got arrested for kissing.

Great.

They did not get arrested for kissing ... but for kissing and inappropriate intimate touching...and drinking. Dubai is not the only place with public decency laws, or public alcohol consmption bans, but you should withold your outrage until you can be assured that they didn't have their hands down each other's pants.

 

[Mark6]

I can't speak for Sgtbaker and DDT, but if I ever happen to be in Dubai, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia (none of which I intend to!), I will familiarize myself with local laws, and will follow them. Even if I think these laws are stupid and barbaric, and I consider myself morally superior to the Dubai government.

 

[Cavemonster]

1) Yes, the law is silly and based on moral policing.
2) Going to a country and breaking their laws, was equally silly.

I blame them for having the law, but not for enforcing it. And living in the US, where drinking on the street and certain displays of public affection are also illegal, I can't claim any moral high ground. The distinctions are more or less arbitrary.

 

[quadraginta]

If you can split your brain and accept what you would find unacceptable in any other circumstances because it's "their way", then fine, but it's a strange and possibly dangerous way of thinking.

In the U.S. there are counties, sometimes even towns, where it is illegal to consume alcohol in a public restaurant. Drive to a nearby county and it's okay to drink it, but the restaurant can be busted for selling it to you. Drive a little farther and they'll sell you all you want.

Are you suggesting that this is "a strange and possibly dangerous way of thinking." Not that long ago it was the norm.

I suspect that a review of currently enforceable statutes regulating public behavior would unearth many examples no less restrictive than the one in your OP, even in Canada and the U.S. Will you condemn them all as "a strange and possibly dangerous way of thinking."

 

[sgtbaker]

Stay as far away as possible from Dubai or any similar countries.

Re-read the OP. I gave that answer from the get-go:




That would be too heroic for me.

I do consider myself morally superior to the Dubai government, thank you.

So let me get this straight; the law is ridiculous (agreed) and someone, anyone but you (you are not heroic enough), should do something about it. However, anyone else who equally thinks the law is just plain silly but also feels no urge to do anything about it is commiting some form of a logical fallacy?

 

[Pardalis]

In the U.S. there are counties, sometimes even towns, where it is illegal to consume alcohol in a public restaurant. Drive to a nearby county and it's okay to drink it, but the restaurant can be busted for selling it to you. Drive a little farther and they'll sell you all you want.

Are you suggesting that this is "a strange and possibly dangerous way of thinking." Not that long ago it was the norm.

I see you have a point, but sgtbaker was comparing this with the extreme case of female genital mutilation, and that's what I found dangerous to suspend one's own morality to accomodate another culture's "way".

For more benign things I agree, and this kissing thing might be one of them (although prison time and deportation seems to be harsh penalty that doesn't fit the "crime").

Most people who infringe on Canada's or the US's public moral codes get a slap on the wrist (figuratively), they don't get a month in prison or deported.

So let me get this straight; the law is ridiculous (agreed) and someone, anyone but you (you are not heroic enough), should do something about it. However, anyone else who equally thinks the law is just plain silly but also feels no urge to do anything about it is commiting some form of a logical fallacy?

No.

 

[TriangleMan]

Guess again

http://iwep.blogspot.com/2009/03/new-decency-law-in-dubai.html

You are only half right, it does not include walking side-by-side, but I concede that's being somewhat pedantic.

I forgot about that when it was sent out last year. It raised eyebrows because it would make Dubai stricter than Qatar, which is strange given Dubai's tolerance for alcohol and prostitution. But how often was it enforced in the last year? I have only heard of two cases that made headlines. Is a guideline that is rarely enforced really all that much to worry about? I've never heard anyone here worry about it when they travel there.

I'll see if I can find any relevant statistics from a Dubai Ministry, maybe there is something about how many arrests or fines there've been under the guidelines.

 

[Pardalis]

The problem with very ultra-conservative countries that have very uptight and restrictive religious laws, you can read the by-laws in advance to make sure you know the rules, but you can never know for sure if you will ever break the law by mistake. There's always something you will overlook and not even consider as potentially obscene.

Does anyone really check the rulebook of a country to see if benign things like holding hands or dancing is allowed?

It's like reading the microscopic instructions on powertool manuals. Nobody reads those.

 

[SnidelyW]

One thing we're not quite sure about is what this couple may have said to the police constable who initially approached them.

The couple could have been rude or disrespectful to the constable, who then applied the law in its most strict form, and arrested them.

This case could be the most strict application of an existing statute.

Any Dubai police constables on the forum to clarify this? Any Dubai legal experts?

Bueller?

 

[TriangleMan]

According to this US gov report:

https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=115713

Dubai does not release official crime statistics. OSAC does not list scandalous behavior as a significant crime to be concerned with. However they do note:

Public displays of affection are discouraged and could be considered in violation of local laws

 

[Pardalis]

One thing we're not quite sure about is what this couple may have said to the police constable who initially approached them.

Or, the woman who reported them amplified and exaggerated what she saw them doing. Maybe she never saw a woman being caressed on the cheek before, and she thought this was her genitals and part of intercourse.

 

[SnidelyW]

From John Strawson, an Islamic Law expert quoted from a BBC Radio 5 interview, and reproduced in the BBC web article referenced below;

"And I think that the combination of the alleged kissing and the consumption of alcohol in an illegal place, meant that this was a case that the authorities really wanted to pursue, and they are probably sticking to their rigid interpretation of the law."

Professor Strawson said the Dubai authorities often turned a blind eye to foreigners' behaviour, because of the high income that comes from tourists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8602449.stm

Interesting to note the kissing allegation came from a 2 year old girl, who told her mother the pair had kissed. The mother did not witness the actual kiss.

 

[sgtbaker]

I see you have a point, but sgtbaker was comparing this with the extreme case of female genital mutilation, and that's what I found dangerous to suspend one's own morality to accomodate another culture's "way".

I was not comparing the cases. I was pointing out, as I said a few posts later, that what is the norm is some cultures is not automatically accepted in another. Again, like I said, I was hard pressed to find something that Americans would find "shocking", as they do find public displays of effection shocking in Dubai. Please don't make is sound like that was the basis of my argument.

Originally Posted by sgtbaker
So let me get this straight; the law is ridiculous (agreed) and someone, anyone but you (you are not heroic enough), should do something about it. However, anyone else who equally thinks the law is just plain silly but also feels no urge to do anything about it is commiting some form of a logical fallacy?

No.

So what is the reaction you wanted. Apparently anything you didn't like you pinned as a fallacy, whether it fit or it didn't. Their sentencing is apparently not appaulling enough for you to jump into action, your response is to not go there, the only thing we added was, "get over it [to the couple] you broke the law.

Does anyone really check the rulebook of a country to see if benign things like holding hands or dancing is allowed?

I bet I can think of two people who thought the same thing.