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Project Astrometria:Global Cooling until 2100?

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The point is you cannot prove that they did not and thus computer model results are meaningless.
Looks like I was right - Your are going on a "paranoid rant" about all of the climate scientists who ever programmed a computer model, constructing them to get the results that they wanted.

No one can prove that the Grand Council Of Climate Scientists did not meet in secret, decide to make up global warming and fake all of the evidence for it. :rolleyes:

The point is that the climate models are
  1. Independently verified.
    Your bit of paranoia demands a worldwide conspiracy to make the results match.
  2. Very complex.
    You cannot just "program" them to give the results you expect. You may as well not run them and just fake the output.
You fail to grasp the basics of this, it does not require "paranoia" to understand that a scientist making subjective determinations about inclusion and omission of mathematical calculations is "fixing" a model to his preconceived results.
You fail to grasp the basics of this:
If you do not have all of the factors that influence climate in your computer model then the model results are suspect to say the least. Climate scientists of course know this. So they test the models against existing data :jaw-dropp !
If they fit the existing data then the neglected factors either cancel each other out or have effects too small to be seen.

This is part of what science does - it creates models that match the real world.
 
I have read three of them completely and read the abstracts of at least 10.
Seriously, do you think that’s enough? Your opening post was “Pick any one paper from that list and we will discuss its merits.
If you dare” Saying that, after reading so few of them, tells me you’ve prejudged them. What else can I think?
I try to be objective and recognize any bias that may creep into my arguments.
Me too, it’s not easy if we want to be fair.
Let's just pick one and discuss it, you pick.
No, I’d rather wait until I’ve been though them. If you have a cutting “put down” ready to go, just post it and I’ll try to match it to my top ten papers :rolleyes:
You assume that posters such as myself, varwoche, RC and others haven't looked at the other possibilities in any depth before concluding that CO2 is the most important.
Do I have to say it again, "water vapor is the most important greenhouse gas"
I try to never ass/u/me , got that drummed into me at primary school. Have I read you right? You said: “concluding that CO2 is the most important.” then “water vapor is the most important greenhouse gas" which is it? you can’t say both are the most important!

This is obviously OT but it is worth taking the time,IMO, to look at how the perception of peer review has changed since climategate. It’s also why my acceptance of AGW has been reduced to “unsure” and I started looking at other explanations of climate change like Project Astrometria, Weatheraction and CERN CLOUD etc...

An experimental study of confirmatory bias in the peer review system

“reviewers were strongly biased against manuscripts which reported results contrary to their theoretical perspective.”
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g1l56241734kq743/

Evidence on peer review - scientific quality control or smokescreen?

“Appreciable bias and parochialism have been found in the peer review system”

“In a separate analysis of data from the same trial, Black et al found that the characteristics of reviewers, such as demographic factors, specialty, seniority, or academic appointments, had little association with the quality of the reviewsthey produced, explaining only 8% of review quality”

“Paradoxically, membership of an editorial board was associated with lower, not higher, review quality.”

“Researchers have an interest in knowing about the fairness of the systems by which their research is judged. If the peer review process should turn out to be worthless or, worse still, hopelessly corrupt, researchers would be better off committing their findings to the internet”

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/318/7175/44

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/318/7175/44


This article by Fred Pearce in guardian.co.uk, on 9 February 2010 says it well, I think, and my quoting large pieces of it, is just my way of coaxing you, and the more resistant, to read it to the end.

'Climategate' was PR disaster that could bring healthy reform of peer review

“They talk about "peer-to-peer" review. Meaning an end to centralised control through journals and a free for all in which everything is published and anyone can comment on anything”

"Climategate... triggered the death of unconditional trust in the scientific peer-review process, and the maturing of a new movement of peer-to-peer review."

"Ignoring sceptics from outside the field is inappropriate. Einstein didn't start his career at Princeton, but rather at a post office”

"Climate tribes were established in response to the politically motivated climate disinformation machine...The reaction of the climate tribes... has been to circle the wagons and point the guns outward in an attempt to discredit misinformation."

“"the systematic and continuing behaviour from scientists that hold editorial positions, serve on important boards and committees and participate in major assessment reports."

Other leading figures are also looking for ways to defuse the tribalism.

"the authors of the damaging emails would be wise to stand back from positions as reviewers and participants in the IPCC process. The journals Nature and Science must review their quality-control measures and selection criteria for papers." Meanwhile, he told the media and politicians: "You have the knowledge you need for the political decisions. Let us [scientists] sit in our studies and discuss the remaining issues... Give us time to consider, to test alternative hypotheses, to falsify theories – to do our work without worrying if the results support our causes. Science is a valuable and unique societal institution, but not if it is consumed by short-sighted political goals."

“ex-CRU research scientist Mike Hulme, joined with Oxford science philosopher Jerry Ravetz to write: "Climate scientists will have to work harder to earn the warranted trust of the public – and maybe that is no bad thing." But to do that, they said, science itself might have to change. "This event might signal a crack that allows for processes of restructuring scientific knowledge of climate change. It is possible that some areas of climate science have become sclerotic... too partisan, too centralized. The tribalism that some of the leaked emails display is something more usually associated with...primitive cultures."

I would argue that there are three strategies for dealing with skeptics:

1. Retreat into the ivory tower
2. Circle the wagons/point guns outward: ad hominem/appeal to motive attacks; appeal to authority; isolate the enemy through lack of access to data; peer review process
3. Take the “high ground:” engage the skeptics on our own terms (conferences, blogosphere); make data/methods available/transparent; clarify the uncertainties; openly declare our values

“Many sceptic bloggers are in full cry against the entire peer review process. They talk about "peer-to-peer" review. Meaning an end to centralised control through journals and a free for all in which everything is published and anyone can comment on anything. A journalist active in this movement, the West Coast former street artist and radical arts critic Patrick Courrielche, claims: "Climategate... triggered the death of unconditional trust in the scientific peer-review process, and the maturing of a new movement of peer-to-peer review."
Can an entirely free intellectual market deliver better science? Can the pioneers of scientific review on the blogosphere do better than the journals? Would this ensure quality control or shatter it? Should the Jeffrey Archers of the scientific world have as much access to the journals as the Nobel laureates? They may shudder in the labs, but we may one day find out”.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/09/climate-emails-pr-disaster-peer-review
 
You, it seems have made a judgement on them already, so how many have YOU read or don’t you need to do that before you dismiss them?
I can't speak for bobdroege7 but readers may have noticed that many of the articles were published in Energy and Environment, which is an industry rag well known for publishing meritless anti-gw drivel that was rejected by serious publications.

Publication prejudices: An experimental study of confirmatory bias in the peer review system
So, is climate science uniquely susceptible to these biases. Or should doubt be cast on all science?

So, it seems clear to me, Peer Review is being use by scientists, in general, and the small group of AGW scientists, in particular, to defend their “beliefs” and block new idea’s and theories.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g1l56241734kq743/
What's your point? Are we to disregard peer reviewed articles in favor of opinion pieces from know-nothing, non-scientist nutbags like Gregory Fegel?
 
I try to never ass/u/me , got that drummed into me at primary school. Have I read you right? You said: “concluding that CO2 is the most important.” then “water vapor is the most important greenhouse gas" which is it? you can’t say both are the most important!

You are right, I can't say both are the most important, because I didn't.

What I said was that you were assuming that I hadn't examined other possibilities before concluding that CO2 was the most important.

"Ignoring sceptics from outside the field is inappropriate. Einstein didn't start his career at Princeton, but rather at a post office”

That's a BS einstein quote as Albert Einstein was already established in the field when he started working at the patent office. And I don't think he published his important papers at Princeton. He may have published at Princeton, I honestly don't even care to check, but his papers on the photoelectric effect, special and general relativity, well definately not.

Back to the topic at hand, I've tried to read many more but when you constantly run into paywalls, it tends to dampen ones enthusthiasm.

You brought the list back to life, you should pick one or read the other thread about the list.
 
Originally Posted by bobdroege7
I have read three of them completely and read the abstracts of at least 10.
Seriously, do you think that’s enough? Your opening post was “Pick any one paper from that list and we will discuss its merits.
If you dare” Saying that, after reading so few of them, tells me you’ve prejudged them. What else can I think?
Me too, it’s not easy if we want to be fair./quote]
Seriously, Haig?
bobdroege7 has sampled three of the papers completely and read the abstracts of at least 10. That is one scientific way to evaluate a list of citations - look at some examples and see what the quality of the list is like.

How many papers have you read Haig?
Are you relying on your biases or your intellect to judge the quality of the list?

In any case the list is meaningless:
Science not made correct by the number of papers published supporting a thesis. If this were the case then AGW would be correct since there are more papers supporting it.
AGW is scientifically correct because the evidence supports it.
One simple example from my point of view:
  • GHG's increase the temperature of the Earth according to basic physics.
  • There are lots of other factors that drive climate. These should include cosmic rays but there are doubts, e.g. the expected correlation between low clouds and cosmic rays broke down in 1991 (Could cosmic rays be causing global warming?).
  • Scientists have measured that GHG's are a major driver of climate.
  • GHG's have increased.
  • We caused this increase.
  • The temperature of the Earth has increased.
  • Thus AGW.
 
At present greenhouse gasses are causing ~0.2 deg of warming *per decade*.

Do you mean in the absence of other forcings or feedbacks?

Because showing that the warming is less than ~0.2 dec C per decade is a trivial exercise.
 
Apologies to varwoche, bobdroege7 and Reality Check for not replying to your posts sooner. I have very little free time, due to work and family commitments, and that won’t change in the near future, it may actually get worse. I still have two of RC’s posts to reply to and a lot of those 500 papers to read, (or at least open and skim thro’) before I post my “top ten”. I will get around to that, as soon as I can.
I can't speak for bobdroege7 but readers may have noticed that many of the articles were published in Energy and Environment, which is an industry rag well known for publishing meritless anti-gw drivel that was rejected by serious publications.
I understand from that link you posted earlier that there were 115 different publishers including Nature and Science and I expect they’re more now, since the list jumped from 390 to over 500. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156813

I have no idea, yet, how many are from that “rag” E&E, as you say, but my own view is similar to this, also from someone on that thread “A peer-reviewed paper in Nature can still be false, and a note on a napkin can still be true”

Said a bit clearer in my own words; I view these papers like books; I judge them by what is between the covers. I couldn’t care less who the publisher is on the cover

BTW the editor of the journal, Energy & Environment (E&E) has said this recently:

“As editor of a journal, which remained open to scientists who challenged the orthodoxy, I became the target of a number of CRU manoeuvres. The hacked emails revealed attempts to manipulate peer review to E&E's disadvantage, and showed that libel threats were considered against its editorial team. Dr Jones even tried to put pressure on my university department. The emailers expressed anger over my publication of several papers that questioned the 'hockey stick' graph and the reliability of CRU temperature data.”

“CRU clearly disliked my- journal and believed that "good" climate scientists do not read it. They characterised it as a journal of choice for climate sceptics. If this was so, it happened by default as other publication opportunities were closed to them. Email No. 1256765544, for example nevertheless shows that they took the journal seriously. An American response to McIntyre's and McKitrick's influential paper I published in 2005 challenging the "hockey stick" says, "It is indeed time leading scientists at CRU associated with the UK Met Bureau explain how Mr McIntyre is in error or resign."
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/memo/climatedata/uc2602.htm

Seems a very robust defence of E&E to me and what about the other end of the peer review pecking order – Nature? Its editor has been in the news too:

“Nature editor Philip Campbell forced out of independent panel after saying there was nothing to suggest a cover up by scientists at the University of East Anglia.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/12/climate-change-climategate-nature-global-warming

So Campbell has to resign because, publicly, his impartiality is in doubt. As editor in chief of Nature and in the privacy of his office, are climate skeptics papers likely to be given any chance at all of publication? I don’t think so! IMO.
So, is climate science uniquely susceptible to these biases. Or should doubt be cast on all science?
ALL of us are! in my understanding. We expect more integrity and professionalism from our scientists to avoid these biases in their research. I also understand that this “confirmatory bias” is more prevalent in times of fierce opposition and that is describes the AGW debate.
What's your point? Are we to disregard peer reviewed articles in favor of opinion pieces from know-nothing, non-scientist nutbags like Gregory Fegel?
My point is that we need a “level playing field” in the area of peer review so that both sides can be judged not pre-judged.
I have no knowledge of Gregory Fegel background but his piece “Looming Ice Age” is the exact opposite of Al Gores “An Inconvienient Truth” and I thought that was neat. He is also in line with the OP of the Russians, but clearly more extreme.
You are right, I can't say both are the most important, because I didn't. Yip, I see now.
What I said was that you were assuming that I hadn't examined other possibilities before concluding that CO2 was the most important.
Yip, I see now but are you sure it’s not water vapour? Here is a quote from Reid Bryson, Emeritus Professor and founding chairman of the University of Wisconsin Department of Meteorology (now the Department of Oceanic and Atmospheric Sciences)
"Well let me give you one fact first. In the first 30 feet of the atmosphere, on the average, outward radiation from the Earth, which is what CO2 is supposed to affect, how much [of the reflected energy] is absorbed by water vapor? In the first 30 feet, 80 percent, okay? ...: And how much is absorbed by carbon dioxide? Eight hundredths of one percent. One one-thousandth as important as water vapor. You can go outside and spit and have the same effect as doubling carbon dioxide."
That's a BS einstein quote as Albert Einstein was already established in the field when he started working at the patent office. And I don't think he published his important papers at Princeton. He may have published at Princeton, I honestly don't even care to check, but his papers on the photoelectric effect, special and general relativity, well definately not.
Don’t think your right:
“Einstein worked in this patent office from 1902 to 1909, holding a temporary post when he was first appointed, but by 1904 the position was made permanent and in 1906 he was promoted to technical expert second class.”
http://www.gap-system.org/~history/Biographies/Einstein.html
Back to the topic at hand, I've tried to read many more but when you constantly run into paywalls, it tends to dampen ones enthusthiasm.
Yes, I agree
You brought the list back to life, you should pick one or read the other thread about the list.
I didn’t know, I really am new to this. I will pick my top ten when I finish them but you can post your "putdowns” before that, if you want :rolleyes:
Seriously, Haig?
Yes, Seriously RC
bobdroege7 has sampled three of the papers completely and read the abstracts of at least 10. That is one scientific way to evaluate a list of citations - look at some examples and see what the quality of the list is like.
Seems like a very small sample to me. Remember they have already been peer reviewed.
How many papers have you read Haig?
Are you relying on your biases or your intellect to judge the quality of the list?
Only just started RC. I’ll use everything I’ve got between my ears to give my DA view. What will you use RC to judge my top ten? The journal it was published in rather than what the paper actually says?
In any case the list is meaningless:
Ah! So you dismiss them already.
Science not made correct by the number of papers published supporting a thesis.
Agreed.
If this were the case then AGW would be correct since there are more papers supporting it.
Wrong, science is not a democracy or a consensus.
AGW is scientifically correct because the evidence supports it.
There is evidence that climate change is, not man made but natural.
One simple example from my point of view:
  • GHG's increase the temperature of the Earth according to basic physics.
    Others have a different view, saying GHG’s are not the driver of climate change.
    There are lots of other factors that drive climate. These should include cosmic rays but there are doubts, e.g. the expected correlation between low clouds and cosmic rays broke down in 1991 (Could cosmic rays be causing global warming?).
    Scientists have measured that GHG's are a major driver of climate.
    GHG's have increased.
    We caused this increase.
    The temperature of the Earth has increased.
    Thus AGW.

  • The following list of confounding variables is a work in progress - at the rate that new ones are added it is quite likely that there are other climate drivers that have not yet been identified.
    · Irrigation (Why is so little in the press about irrigations effect on climate?)(There is no occurrence of the word irrigation in Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis, Summary for Policymakers and only a few references in the full report - often expressing it as unknowable.)(The argument that the water vapor is only in the air for about a week is strange as some of the water re-evaporate as it hits the ground. There is also the fact that aquifers levels and river flows into the ocean really have gone down. Almost all of the Colorado river flow of 100 years ago now travels over the USA as water vapor.)
    · Changes in solar output in the IR and visible spectrum space_weather (short term variations seem too small a factor on their own)
    · Changes in shielding of cosmic radiation from the sun due to changes in magnetic storms (provides nucleation sites for condensation of water vapor)
    · Changes in plant coverage (deforestation etc)
    · The Milankovitch cycles; changes in earth's eccentricity, axial tilt, and precession over time. The way the earth orbits around the sun can create ice ages and warming periods. You might want to look at the wikipedia article and pay attention to the problems section.
    · Ground level Ozone
    · Changes in particles that come from the sun.
    · Genetic changes in ocean algae over time http://www.uq.edu.au/news/?article=11433
    · Changes in earths magnetic field.
    · Changes in volcanic emissions (CO2 and other substances)
    · Changes in the amount and elevation of pollution particulate (provides nucleation sites for precipitation)
    · Changes in CO2 absorption and emission due to changes in plant coverage and ocean temperature.
    · Changes in ozone thickness (secondary to solar cycles?)
    · Changes in methane emission by plants (genetic evolutionary driven changes).
    · Changes in ocean salinity due to water use - (causing changes in ocean currents).
    · Changes in land reflectivity
    · Snowballs from space (an open system - and there is debate if these snowballs are only a sensor artifact - such material would introduce water vapor and nucleation sites at an unknown rate with unknown changes over time )
    · Changes in ice crystal reflectivity due to the temperature, water saturation, mineral content and wind speed when they are formed. (see American Scientist Jan-Feb 2007)

    So, RC the science of climate change isn't settled,it seems, and we can't say for sure it's man made.
 
Ah! So you dismiss them already.
Agreed.
Wrong, science is not a democracy or a consensus.
No the list is meaningless because I can produce a similar list of papers that agree with AGW (see IPCC AR4). The number of papers does not establish the validity of the science.

Right, science is not a democracy or a consensus or a vote established by counting papers. I never stated that. And you keep on thinking that I do which is strangely obtuse of you.

So for the second time:
  • Consensus has no place in science
  • Science is not democratic
  • The small number have sometimes been shown to be right against the majority, time and evidence will decide.
  • The majority have often been shown to be right against the minority, time and evidence will decide.
  • So how are we as layman to judge the results of current climate research?
The real answer is to become climate scientists! :biggrin:
The more practical answer is to learn science and apply that knowledge to the evidence. This means at least a university education. This is the situation that I am in.
The most practical answer is to to combine applying what knowledge you have to evaluating the evidence (and realize that you will make mistakes) and trust the majority of experts, i.e. the scientific consensus. This means of course that sometimes you (and these experts) will be wrong.

The worst answer is to just trust the minority of experts.
This means that you (and these experts) will be wrong most of the time.

There is evidence that climate change is, not man made but natural.
...
So, RC the science of climate change isn't settled,it seems, and we can't say for sure it's man made.
So, Haig the science of climate change isn't settled,it seems, and we can't say for sure it's man made.
We agree :eye-poppi !


What I saying is that the majority of the evidence is that AGW exists. A simplistic example is the one I gave:
  • GHG's increase the temperature of the Earth according to basic physics.
  • There are lots of other factors that drive climate. These should include cosmic rays but there are doubts, e.g. the expected correlation between low clouds and cosmic rays broke down in 1991 (Could cosmic rays be causing global warming?).
  • Scientists have measured that GHG's are a major driver of climate.
  • GHG's have increased.
  • We caused this increase.
  • The temperature of the Earth has increased.
  • Thus AGW.
 
“Nature editor Philip Campbell forced out of independent panel after saying there was nothing to suggest a cover up by scientists at the University of East Anglia.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/12/climate-change-climategate-nature-global-warming

So Campbell has to resign because, publicly, his impartiality is in doubt. As editor in chief of Nature and in the privacy of his office, are climate skeptics papers likely to be given any chance at all of publication? I don’t think so! IMO.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Campbell is resigning from his post, just from the review panel.
Which is probably a good thing.

Yip, I see now but are you sure it’s not water vapour? Here is a quote from Reid Bryson, Emeritus Professor and founding chairman of the University of Wisconsin Department of Meteorology (now the Department of Oceanic and Atmospheric Sciences)
"Well let me give you one fact first. In the first 30 feet of the atmosphere, on the average, outward radiation from the Earth, which is what CO2 is supposed to affect, how much [of the reflected energy] is absorbed by water vapor? In the first 30 feet, 80 percent, okay? ...: And how much is absorbed by carbon dioxide? Eight hundredths of one percent. One one-thousandth as important as water vapor. You can go outside and spit and have the same effect as doubling carbon dioxide."

Are you familiar with the CO2 saturation argument and what's wrong with it.

CO2 will do its thing no matter how much water vapor is there.


Don’t think your right:
“Einstein worked in this patent office from 1902 to 1909, holding a temporary post when he was first appointed, but by 1904 the position was made permanent and in 1906 he was promoted to technical expert second class.”
http://www.gap-system.org/~history/Biographies/Einstein.html

Kinda off topic but Albert Einstein published his first paper in 1901, before he started working in the patent office.
 
That is not what the abstract states.
Publication Prejudices: An Experimental Study of Confirmatory Bias in the Peer Review System
There are no "beliefs" mentioned.
There are no careers mentioned.
There is no mention of different views that threaten them (but that could be "theoretical perspective").
The only thing you got right is "status quo" - assuming that none of the 75 reviewers was a maverick whose theoretical perspective was anti-status quo.
Everybody knows that there is some confirmation bias in the peer-review system. Scientists hope that the indoctrination that they undergo in post graduate school to question everything minimizes this bias.
If you clink on this link and open the “free preview pdf” (just below the header) it gives you much more of the text.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g1l56241734kq743/

I said:””Scientists are shown to “herd” together to defend the status quo, their “beliefs” and careers against new or different views that threaten them.””

These three quotes from that show that the interpretation, I gave, is a fair representation IMO.

“strongly biased against manuscripts which reported results contrary to their theoretical perspective.”

“This refers to the tendency for humans to seek out, attend to, and some-times embellish experiences which support or "confirm" their beliefs.”

“Confirmatory experiences are selectively welcomed and granted easy credibility," he continues; "Disconfirmatory experiences, on the other hand, are often ignored, discredited, or treated with obvious defensiveness"

Is it possible these scientists don’t know they’re doing this? Shrink anyone?
Seems like “science” to me :eye-poppi !
Let see
  • The majority of scientists think that there is strong evidence for special relativity - is this “groupthink”?
  • The majority of scientists think that there is strong evidence for general relativity - is this “groupthink”?
  • The majority of scientists think that there is strong evidence for evolution - is this “groupthink”?
  • The majority of scientists think that there is strong evidence for the Standard Model - is this “groupthink”?
  • The majority of scientists think that there is strong evidence for quantum mechanics - is this “groupthink”?
The evidence that global warming exists, is mostly due to GHG's and we caused the increase in GHG's is not as strong as the evidence for the above theories but is strong enough to convince the majority of climate sceintists.
One more time: Seems like “groupthink” to me This approach hasn’t taken into account GCR and their affect on our climate or even acknowledge it’s possible impact that CLOUD math show it’s equivalent to any GHG’s effect. The Greenland ice cores confirm the 15% to 20% (approx) reduction in GCR’s during the last 100 years of warming.

As for the rest of your “Let see” list I’m with you but “groupthink” comes into it’s own in times of conflict ie man-made climate change and the embattled small group of AGW scientists fighting off the sceptics – just think of that for a moment!

“Groupthink, a term coined by social psychologist Irving Janis (1972), occurs when a group makes faulty decisions because group pressures lead to a deterioration of “mental efficiency, reality testing, and moral judgment” (p. 9). Groups affected by groupthink ignore alternatives and tend to take irrational actions that dehumanize other groups. A group is especially vulnerable to groupthink when its members are similar in background, when the group is insulated from outside opinions, and when there are no clear rules for decision making.”
http://www.psysr.org/about/pubs_resources/groupthink overview.htm
This approach fits the existing temperature data without GCR. This is evidence that the effect of GCR is small.
Don’t agree, any model that can't fit past data has to be called wrong. Your approach can’t explain the LIA or the MWP but GCR, with modulation by the Sun, can.
Interestingly, you are still obsessed with this astrophysicist with no known expertise in climate science and his advertising. Piers Corbyn has no proven track record of predicting weather.
One more time: Interestingly, you are still obsessed with the ad-homs on this astrophysicist with expertise in climate science. Can you explain why the, peer-reviewed, climate scientist at the Met Office, who use the latest computer climate models, based on AGW, can’t get their long range forecasts right! but PC can?
Since you did not unbderstand what I said here it is again in terms you might understand
  • Consensus has no place in science
  • Science is not democratic
  • The small number have sometimes been shown to be right against the majority, time and evidence will decide.
  • The majority have often been shown to be right against the minority, time and evidence will decide.
  • So how are we as layman to judge the results of current climate research?
The real answer is to become climate scientists! :D
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. –Galileo

The real answer is for something to be considered a scientific fact, it must be testable with the scientific method and to allow their peers open access to test and verify evidence and results. The tax paying layman, who pays for 90% of scientific research, should, if they want, have free access to this information both for and against. Maybe then, the public will understand what the science is about and trust it.
The more practical answer is to learn science and apply that knowledge to the evidence. This means at least a university education. This is the situation that I am in.
The most practical answer is to to combine applying what knowledge you have to evaluating the evidence (and realize that you will make mistakes) and trust the majority of experts, i.e. the scientific consensus. This means of course that sometimes you (and these experts) will be wrong.
The worst answer is to just trust the minority of experts.
This means that you (and these experts) will be wrong most of the time.
The best answer is to de-couple science and politics. If scientists don’t want the same reputation as politicians they have to be seen to be independent. If the public feel they have been misled by science and politicians it will be science that is the biggest loser and some see the signs of this already.
I know that the CERN scientists know about GHG's. Their research has nothing to do with GHG's.
RC You said in a previous post “Climate scientists know about the Sun because they have to include its effects in their study of the climate. Astrophysists do not have to know about GHGs in order to study the Sun.” scroll back and see. Now you’re saying, what I am saying, get a grip man.
Beacuse is it not a paper! It is a NASA statement on Global Warming.
Actually it’s “How to cite this article:” but paper, article or statement it’s much the same to a layman. The point is when you made this comment about it: “You have a point there about the last author. My guess is that the first author (Earth Sciences includes climate science) did the climate stuff and teh second author did the impact stuff.” Do you think the NASA authors were making political/scientific statement like the IPCC? It reads that way to me
Yip, not sure why that happened but it’s fine now http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7061020.ece
Nothin to do with what I said: "There is no failth. “believe” = the scientific evidence has convinced them.", i.e. there is no religious kind of faith (blind trust in a dogma without evidence) involved which you implied.
Of course what James Lovelock is stating that that skeptics have prevented the science of climate change from becoming a religion.
Have you got the T-shirt? http://www.ibelieveinscience.com/ ;-)
Yes, he did say about sceptics “They have kept us from regarding the science of climate change as a religion”. But he continued “It had gone too far that way” which implies that AGW people had the “faith” before the sceptics became very vocal IMHO.
Climate is doing what they predicted.
  • Climate models are tested against existing data. If they do not fit that then they are thrown away.
  • Climate models are tested agains future predictions. The global warmiing that has been measured over the past decades fits what the models predicted.
    Read the IPCC reports for the full picture.
I do not know about the fits to the LIA, MWP and the regular Ice Ages.
I don't think your right here and these quotes and links explain my doubts about the existing climate models. Also, if they can't explain the past climate change, that is not a good sign in it's-self, IMO and gives rise to more doubt:

"The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't."- Kevin Trenberth, Lead Author IPCC (2001, 2007)
http://www.theclimateconspiracy.com/?p=43

"As Professor Ian Clark, Department of Sciences, University of Ottawa tells it: "If you haven't understood the climate system, if you haven't understood all the components -- the cosmic rays, the solar, the CO2, the water vapor, the clouds, and put it all together -- if you haven't got all that, then your model isn't worth anything." As in most computer models, the adage of "junk in -- junk out" remains true for climate models."

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/03/its_the_climate_warming_models.html
Mmmm by that strategy we would have the Earth circling the Sun as the evidence for the consensus did not hold up and the evidence for the dissenting views did.
The dissenting views paid a heavy price and it took such a long time before the consensus strangle hold was broken:

"Giordano Bruno, Galileo, Tommaso Campanella and Menocchio are just a few among many great thinkers that were imprisoned, tortured or burnt by the Church for their ideas." http://philosophy.suite101.com/article.cfm/philosophers-condemned-by-the-inquisition

Interestingly this, mainly, happen during the Little Ice Age when the Church was looking for scape goats, so the people wouldn't blame them for natures "strange" behaviour. Some are saying AGW is the new religion these days ;)
AGW is about what is happening to the climate since basically the Industrial Revolution. It does do it in my view based on simple science:
  • GHG's increase the temperature of the Earth according to basic physics.
  • There are lots of other factors that drive climate. These should include cosmic rays but there are doubts, e.g. the expected correlation between low clouds and cosmic rays broke down in 1991 (Could cosmic rays be causing global warming?).
  • Scientists have measured that GHG's are a major driver of climate.
  • GHG's have increased.
  • We caused this increase.
  • The temperature of the Earth has increased.
  • Thus AGW.
  • There are other views that present evidence and theories that can explain our climate past, present and predicted future:
    e.g. http://web.dmi.dk/solar-terrestrial/space_weather/

    Still don't see how you are so sure the AGW is the "reason" for climate change.
    That is a really bad reason: "makes more sense" just means that Piers Corbyn has a better brand of snake oil! :D
    Science is based on the ability to produce actual evidence and convince your peers that the evidence is correct. Piers Corbyn has produced none. He has convinced few (if any) peers.
    Piers Corbyn doesn't ask you to "believe" anything, he gives accurate evidence based science for the Sun effecting weather and climate here on Earth. He has quite a few that are convinced by his views and here are some that are willing to share a platform with him:Schreuder Analytic Chemist of ILMCD, Peter Gill - Physicist, Fellow of the Energy Institute and Member Inst of Physics, John Sanderson Physicist Pres Royal College Of Science Assoc, Piers Corbyn Astrophysicist founder WeatherAction, Prof Phillip Hutchinson Energy expert, Dr David Bellamy naturalist, Gabe Rychert Climate Realists.com. Joe D’Aleo of American Meteorological Soc & Dr Kirill Kuzanyan Solar Physicist (Moscow/Beijing)

    Others have also found correlations between the Sun and weather on Earth:Prof. Price explains. "We noticed that this bouncing was modulated by the Sun, changing throughout its 27-day cycle. The variability of the lightning activity occurring in sync with the sun's rotation suggested that the sun somehow regulates the lightning pattern." http://www.physorg.com/news177169609.html

    With all the news about climategate and the IPCC errors it has been tough to keep up with all the bad news for global warming but WHY do all these "mistakes" only go the one way i.e. making the warming seem worse than it is? Do you think it could be deliberate?
    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-234092--.html

    You need to learn more about the scientific community and how it works - a presentation at a symposium is not peer reviewed.

    I do not know "Kinematics and Physics of Celestial Bodies" but I guess it is peer reviewed. However you obviously never read the paper - it says nothing about climate.
    Sure, your right, as a layman I don't know a lot about the scientific community but I'm learning. I've learned that peer review isn't suppose to stop the publication of opposing views but we see in climategate that is the intention of some.

    Yes, I did read the paper and here is a quote "Long-term correlated variations of the solar activity, radius, and irradiance and of the climate," Kh. I. Abdusamatov has a long line of papers linking the Sun and climate.

    One more time:.

    • It is not a peer-reviewed scientific paper. It is not a paper of any kind. It is an interal document for use within CERN. It is not even the complete document set (see CLOUD Proposal Documents).
    • As an internal proposal document to CERN by scientists who want to do the experiment you would expect them to put possible results in the best light.

      Your quotes from the document merely confirms this.
    • The link between cosmic rays and global warming mentioned in the document have been overtaken by later results as detailed in Could cosmic rays be causing global warming? which cites scientific papers published in 2000, 2001, 2003 and 2007.


    • They only do this in your mind: compariable does not mean "most, maybe all".

      Compariable means of the same order of magnitude. It means that the authors have no actual numbers but are estimating from their experience (and hopefully from consulting actual climate scientists) to impress the budget managers in order to get funding for the experiment.

      Why should they "acknowledge" an experiment that has not even started yet (just a pilot study so far)?
      One more time:Yes, but does that matter that much? It may be over shadowed by more recent papers, it may not, depending on your stance? Thanks for the link to "Could cosmic rays be causing global warming?" It has this:
      "While there was good correlation between cosmic radiation and temperature prior to 1970, the correlation breaks down sharply after 1970. The analysis concludes that "between 1970 and 1985 the cosmic ray flux, although still behaving similarly to the temperature, in fact lags it and cannot be the cause of its rise. Thus changes in the cosmic ray flux cannot be responsible for more than 15% of the temperature increase" (Krivova 2003)"
      http://www.skepticalscience.com/cosmic-rays-and-global-warming.htm

      However if you look at these graphs from Project Astrometria:


      You can see the Sun was at it's most active in the period between 1970 to 1985 and that means cosmic ray flux was reduced and the climate warmer.

      Also, we are now on the down slope of a less active Sun and so a cooling climate has started.

      "First, the Harrison paper of 2006 states "Furthermore, during sudden transient reductions in cosmic rays (e.g. Forbush events), simultaneous decreases occur in the diffuse fraction, showing that the diffuse radiation changes are unambiguously due to cosmic rays."
      http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU06/07661/EGU06-J-07661.pdf

      Apparently,it is pointless to argue that cosmic rays do not affect cloudiness. The correlation is there on a timescale of hours to decades, and as others have shown, on centennial to billion of years. The mechanism might not be what Svensmark has proposed but it doesn't change the basic fact if he is wrong about that.

      Second, your argument is nonsensical, as what Svensmark and other argue is not that cosmic rays can account for all climate influences. But if he is right - and evidence is piling up that he is - two things follows.

      1) the parametrisation in current GCMs are wrong as they fit past temperatures without taking this effect in consideration. Hence they are not reliable as tools for forecasts.

      2) climate sensitivity is overestimated by earlier attempts such as Hansens, as one major forcing was not considered when calculating those sensitivity values.

      What "sceptics" such as me claim is that there is precious little evidence to support the higher estimates on future temperatures as presented by UN (IPCC). And quite a bit of evidence against it. Emission scenarios is, well, rather extravagant, as they include projections of emissions many times higher than todays in year 2100 in spite of our likelhood to develop good alternatives to the ever more pricier fossile fuel (current trends are cutting the cost of renewables at half each decade). Climate scenarios based on these extravagant emission scenarios is then calculated with GCMs that are likely overestimating the response to a particular forcing. In general I would say sceptics accept that the climate warms when we add CO2 to the atmosphere, but we believe its effect will be muted by the climate systems rather than enhanced.

      I also want to add that I recognise all other environmental (and geopolitical) problems associated with burning fossile fuel and find that a compelling reason to put higher efforts in developing alternatives.”
      http://www.skepticalscience.com/cosmic-rays-and-global-warming.htm

      Svensmark: “global warming stopped and a cooling is beginning” – “enjoy global warming while it lasts”

      "Satellite measurements have shown that the variations of solar radiation are too small to explain climate change. But the panel has closed its eyes to another, much more powerful way for the Sun to affect Earth’s climate. In 1996 we discovered a surprising influence of the Sun – its impact on Earth’s cloud cover. High-energy accelerated particles coming from exploded stars, the cosmic rays, help to form clouds.

      When the Sun is active, its magnetic field is better at shielding us against the cosmic rays coming from outer space, before they reach our planet. By regulating the Earth’s cloud cover, the Sun can turn the temperature up and down. High solar activity means fewer clouds and and a warmer world. Low solar activity and poorer shielding against cosmic rays result in increased cloud cover and hence a cooling. As the Sun’s magnetism doubled in strength during the 20th century, this natural mechanism may be responsible for a large part of global warming seen then.

      That also explains why most climate scientists try to ignore this possibility. It does not favour their idea that the 20th century temperature rise was mainly due to human emissions of CO2. If the Sun provoked a significant part of warming in the 20th Century, then the contribution by CO2 must necessarily be smaller."
      http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/...eginning-enjoy-global-warming-while-it-lasts/

      Cosmic Ray Decreases Affect Atmospheric Aerosols And Clouds

      "A link between the Sun, cosmic rays, aerosols, and liquid-water clouds appears to exist on a global scale," the report concludes. This research, to which Torsten Bondo and Jacob Svensmark contributed, validates 13 years of discoveries that point to a key role for cosmic rays in climate change. In particular, it connects observable variations in the world's cloudiness to laboratory experiments in Copenhagen showing how cosmic rays help to make the all-important aerosols.

      "The effect of the solar explosions on the Earth's cloudiness is huge," Henrik Svensmark comments. "A loss of clouds of 4 or 5 per cent may not sound very much, but it briefly increases the sunlight reaching the oceans by about 2 watt per square metre, and that's equivalent to all the global warming during the 20th Century."
      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090801095810.htm

      GALACTIC COSMIC RAYS – CLOUDS EFFECT AND BIFURCATION MODEL

      OF THE EARTH GLOBAL CLIMATE. PART 1. THEORY
      “Macroscopic physics accounting for the modulation of CRF via the solar wind is sufficiently evident. The main reason lies in the fact that the coupling between the solar wind and the Earth's magnetosphere is mediated and controlled by the magnetic field in the solar wind through the magnetic reconnection [4, 5]. Therefore, the GCR intrusions into the lower atmosphere respond to variations in the Earth's magnetic field induced by its coupling with interplanetary magnetic field and magnetic perturbations by eruptive solar activity that propagate via the solar wind [6]. As far back as in the mid-1930-ies Forbush [7,8] provided experimental evidence of rigorous inverse correlation between the cosmic ray intensity and solar activity, and since then many scientists used analogous data on GCR intensity.”
      http://aps.arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/paper.../0803.2765.pdf
      Something’s to to completely derail this thread into yet anbother AGW thread :)
      Not really, "Something’s to consider:" all have at least one thing in common with Project Astrometria and that is climate change is a natural process that we will have to understand and adapt to. It's only AGW that has US as the villains with the convenient, it appears to some, solution of "Cap and Trade" to save us.
      Guess what - there are plenty of papers out there that state that AGW is not happening. They are outnumbered by the ones that say AGW exists. I assume you do not want me to start citing those since you will lose a "citation war".
      Sure their are plenty of papers that show that man isn't the cause of climate change and we are both agreed that numbers citing one view or the other isn't going to settle this, only evidence will. btw I wouldn't "assume" if I were you! It is known research grants were easy to get if you mentioned it was due to AGW, hence lots of papers.
      I have no idea why you cited:
      Oceanic influences on recent continental warming
      (my emphasis added)
      Evidence that oceans warm land and a mention of every possible cause of ocean's warming (natural and anthropogenic pretty well covers everything).
      Climate scientists are quite well aware of ENSO and it effects on global termperatures.
      This is why:Abstract "Evidence is presented that the recent worldwide land warming has occurred largely in response to a worldwide warming of the oceans rather than as a direct response to increasing greenhouse gases (GHGs) over land"

      http://www.springerlink.com/content/au9x40l201105273/?p=c4a331c2e7814daa8a8dbb512f51c531&pi=49

      Global Cooling in 2009 is a really bad blog entry. Everyone knows that if you cherry pick your start and end dates you can impose any trend you like on global temeratures because they vary. The Earth did cool down from 1998 to 2009. But 1998 was an unusually hot year.

      The Earth has heated up over the longer periods usually considered for climate research. These periods have to be long enough so that trends are statistically significantly different from natural variations. This is multiple decades - see Phil Jones says no global warming since 1995.

      Some say the IPCC, CRU ... cherry picked their start date in the LIA. If they had picked the MWP their graphs would have shown cooling since then but that wouldn't have suited their purpose would it?

      As for the web page by By Gregory F. Fegel, CO2 lags temperature - what does it mean?
      The Greenland ice core data shows that increases in CO2 follow warming periods - instead of proceeding them ie lags by some 800 years. In other words C02 is a follower of climate change not a driver.

      Professor Ian Clark, Department of Sciences, University of Ottawa is right.

      If you do not have all of the factors that influence climate in your computer model then the model results are suspect to say the least. Climate scientists of course know this. So they test the models against existing data :jaw-dropp ! If they fit the existing data then the neglected factors either cancel each other out or have effects too small to be seen.
      Yet they don't explain the LIA, MWP or Ice Ages do they! That's not good enough. The Met Office has given up public long range forecasting because their AGW climate model failed to predict the real world.

      Here's another view: "I have studied the climate models and I know what they can do. The models solve the equations of fluid dynamics, and they do a very good job of describing the fluid motions of the atmosphere and the oceans. They do a very poor job of describing the clouds, the dust, the chemistry and the biology of fields and farms and forests. They do not begin to describe the real world that we live in. The real world is muddy and messy and full of things that we do not yet understand. It is much easier for a scientist to sit in an air-conditioned building and run computer models, than to put on winter clothes and measure what is really happening outside in the swamps and the clouds. That is why the climate model experts end up believing their own models." By Freeman Dyson
      No the list is meaningless because I can produce a similar list of papers that agree with AGW (see IPCC AR4). The number of papers does not establish the validity of the science.
      I don’t follow your logic, the list can’t be “meaningless” then surely? It's existance shows, clearly, a difference of opinion among scientists about AGW, and why I am an “unsure” and can say, “The science isn’t settled”
      Right, science is not a democracy or a consensus or a vote established by counting papers. I never stated that. And you keep on thinking that I do which is strangely obtuse of you.
      Well then we can agree on that, at least. Your position, sometimes, does seem to be unclear.
      The real answer is to become climate scientists! :biggrin:
      The more practical answer is to learn science and apply that knowledge to the evidence. This means at least a university education. This is the situation that I am in.
      The most practical answer is to to combine applying what knowledge you have to evaluating the evidence (and realize that you will make mistakes) and trust the majority of experts, i.e. the scientific consensus. This means of course that sometimes you (and these experts) will be wrong.
      Your three stages of “the answer”, real, more practical and most practical all have their problems, as you know. As I see it, the answer is to find a way to regain trust and true independence of our climate scientists and to allow scrutiny by sceptical peers.
      The worst answer is to just trust the minority of experts.This means that you (and these experts) will be wrong most of the time.
      That’s your view, not mine. We should look at the evidence and judge whose wrong from that.
      So, Haig the science of climate change isn't settled,it seems, and we can't say for sure it's man made.
      We agree :eye-poppi !
      I’m amazed you said that, but we agree. Shall I move over a bit and make room for you on the fence beside me?
      What I saying is that the majority of the evidence is that AGW exists. A simplistic example is the one I gave:
      • GHG's increase the temperature of the Earth according to basic physics.
      • There are lots of other factors that drive climate. These should include cosmic rays but there are doubts, e.g. the expected correlation between low clouds and cosmic rays broke down in 1991 (Could cosmic rays be causing global warming?).
      • Scientists have measured that GHG's are a major driver of climate.
      • GHG's have increased.
      • We caused this increase.
      • The temperature of the Earth has increased.
      • Thus AGW.
      We've been told that "The atmospheric levels of CO2 have risen 30% since the Industrial Revolution (~1780) and 18% since1959". Yes,CO2 has increased slightly, and there is input from man, but even that can not be shown conclusively. In an open system (as Earths atmosphere is)it is entirely possible that other variations of natural CO2 sources and sinks may be more responsible. There could be natural sources and sinks of CO2 that have not been identified. In an open system, there is no control of other variables, thus what we can know is quite limited. Thus, AGW is not certain to be the cause of climate change.
      Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Campbell is resigning from his post, just from the review panel.
      Which is probably a good thing.
      Yes, your rightish. If he is suspected of bias (as he was) then he IS better off the panel but the point is he had no choice, he was forced off and the affair harmed his reputation IMO
      Are you familiar with the CO2 saturation argument and what's wrong with it.
      Yes, I’ve read this: "the "saturation argument" against global warming, here’s all you need to say: (a) You’d still get an increase in greenhouse warming even if the atmosphere were saturated, because it’s the absorption in the thin upper atmosphere (which is unsaturated) that counts (b) It’s not even true that the atmosphere is actually saturated with respect to absorption by CO2, (c) Water vapor doesn’t overwhelm the effects of CO2 because there’s little water vapor in the high, cold regions from which infrared escapes, and at the low pressures there water vapor absorption is like a leaky sieve, which would let a lot more radiation through were it not for CO2, and (d) These issues were satisfactorily addressed by physicists 50 years ago, and the necessary physics is included in all climate models."

      However, I’ve also read this: "Atmospheric CO2 may have a slight effect, but there is no proof that man's contribution as a source of CO2 (ESTIMATED at about 4% of all sources) is the reason temperature is slowly trending upward. It is entirely possible that CO2 is going up due to natural variations more than mans contribution - probably not - but the point is that even this is not a scientific fact."
      CO2 will do its thing no matter how much water vapor is there.
      But some say “it’s thing” may not be that significant: Water vapor accounts for about 70% of the greenhouse effect with carbon dioxide somewhere between 4.2% and 8.4%. Water vapor, a potent green house gas, averages 25,000ppm of the lower atmosphere compared to CO2 which is only about 360 ppm. The Atmospheric CO2 change is only about +60 ppm. Realize that we are talking about a change in CO2 from 0.030% to 0.036% or a 0.006% change as a percentage of the atmosphere. The global warmers don't use these numbers instead 'warmers' say it increased 30% (for maximum rhetorical effect?). Over the same periods specific humidity has increased several percent and could be a change of 25,000ppm to 26,250ppm or 2.5% to 2.6% or a 0.1% change. This change in water vapor (probably due to irrigation) is about 16 times larger than the change in CO2 near the ground. (remember in the stratosphere is possibly cooling and has very little water vapor). see:
      http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/079.htm
      Both CO2 and water vapor have similar emissivity so that any change in greenhouse effect due to CO2 would be swamped by changes in water vapor. One could also speculate that this explains the change in global temperatures at lower altitudes with out affecting the upper atmosphere. But lets not draw conclusions based on speculations.
      Kinda off topic but Albert Einstein published his first paper in 1901, before he started working in the patent office.
      You don’t seem to be right if you take this quote: “In the first of three papers, all written in 1905, Einstein examined the phenomenon discovered by Max Planck, according to which electromagnetic energy seemed to be emitted from radiating objects in discrete quantities” http://www.gap-system.org/~history/Biographies/Einstein.html
      The point I was trying to make, with that quote about Einstein: “Ignoring sceptics from outside the field is inappropriate. Einstein didn't start his career at Princeton, but rather at a post office” was just to highlight he came from humble beginnings and as an outsider with no prestige to speak of.
      Regardless, it is OT but Albert Einstein had a fascinating life and well worth a thread of it’s own.
 
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RC You said in a previous post “Climate scientists know about the Sun because they have to include its effects in their study of the climate. Astrophysists do not have to know about GHGs in order to study the Sun.” scroll back and see. Now you’re saying, what I am saying, get a grip man.
Get a grip yourself.
  1. I know that the CERN scientists know about GHG's (in general).
  2. Their research has nothing to do with GHG's.
Still don't see how you are so sure the AGW is the "reason" for climate change.
Because there is strong evidence that AGW is the reason for climate change.

Piers Corbyn doesn't ask you to "believe" anything, he gives accurate evidence based science for the Sun effecting weather and climate here on Earth. ...
He does.
He has given no evidence at all.


Yes, I did read the paper and here is a quote "Long-term correlated variations of the solar activity, radius, and irradiance and of the climate," Kh. I. Abdusamatov has a long line of papers linking the Sun and climate.
[/quote[]
So what?

One more time:Yes, but does that matter that much? It may be over shadowed by more recent papers, it may not, depending on your stance?
It has not been over "shadowed by more recent papers". The link bentween cosimic rays and climate has been shown to be broken in recents decades.

Thanks for the link to "Could cosmic rays be causing global warming?" It has this:
"While there was good correlation between cosmic radiation and temperature prior to 1970, the correlation breaks down sharply after 1970. The analysis concludes that "between 1970 and 1985 the cosmic ray flux, although still behaving similarly to the temperature, in fact lags it and cannot be the cause of its rise. Thus changes in the cosmic ray flux cannot be responsible for more than 15% of the temperature increase" (Krivova 2003)"
http://www.skepticalscience.com/cosmic-rays-and-global-warming.htm
Well Y=It looks like yoiu gor to read the link after the 4th or fifth time UI gave it to you!
As I said - the correlation between cosmic radiation and temperature is broken.

However if you look at these graphs from Project Astrometria:
[URL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_382364b8e6e69af1d0.jpg[/URL]

You can see the Sun was at it's most active in the period between 1970 to 1985 and that means cosmic ray flux was reduced and the climate warmer.
And this has nothing to do with the fact that the climate changed followed by the cosmic radiation.
Or are you claiming that climate is teh vcause of cosmic rays :jaw-dropp ?


Also, we are now on the down slope of a less active Sun and so a cooling climate has started.
Wrong.
The Sun is becoming more active.
According to the Project Astrometria logic we are now into a even more warming climate.

Apparently,it is pointless to argue that cosmic rays do not affect cloudiness. The correlation is there on a timescale of hours to decades, and as others have shown, on centennial to billion of years. The mechanism might not be what Svensmark has proposed but it doesn't change the basic fact if he is wrong about that.
Obviuously you did not understand the above paper - there was a correlation. Thewre is no linger a

Second, your argument is nonsensical, as what Svensmark and other argue is not that cosmic rays can account for all climate influences. But if he is right - and evidence is piling up that he is - two things follows.

1) the parametrisation in current GCMs are wrong as they fit past temperatures without taking this effect in consideration. Hence they are not reliable as tools for forecasts.

2) climate sensitivity is overestimated by earlier attempts such as Hansens, as one major forcing was not considered when calculating those sensitivity values.
I know that Svensmark and other argue is not that cosmic rays can account for all climate influences. This means that
  1. The parametrisation in current GCMs are wrong as they fit past temperatures without taking this effect in consideration. Hence they are are reliable as tools for forecasts since the effect of cosmic rays is negligible.
  2. Climate sensitivity is overestimated by earlier attempts such as Hansens, as one major forcing was not considered when calculating those sensitivity values.
This is why:Abstract "Evidence is presented that the recent worldwide land warming has occurred largely in response to a worldwide warming of the oceans rather than as a direct response to increasing greenhouse gases (GHGs) over land"
That is why the link is irrelevant:
Abstract "Evidence is presented that the recent worldwide land warming has occurred largely in response to a worldwide warming of the oceans rather than as a direct response to increasing greenhouse gases (GHGs) over land"
They are stating that GHG's have an effect. It is an indirect effect not a direct effect.
 
Haig,

There is proof that the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere is due to mans burning fossil fuels.

Because plants prefer the C12 isotope to the C13 isotope, and as they grow die decompose and eventually become coal and oil. The coal and oil have more C12 than C13 and as man burns coal and oil, the atmosphere should progressively contain less C13 as a percentage.

And this is exactly what is observed.

More on this topic as well as charts and graphs here:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/human-fingerprint-in-global-warming.html

And if CO2 is only 0.038% of the atmosphere, that's still 2.6 grams of it for each and every square inch of the planet's surface.

And back on the tired old Einstein spin, your quote "In the first of three papers, all written in 1905," notes that there were three papers written in 1905, not that Einstein's first three papers were written in 1905.

Einstein’s first scientific paper was published in Annalen der Physik in March 1901.
 
Get a grip yourself.
Done :D
[*]I know that the CERN scientists know about GHG's (in general).
[*]Their research has nothing to do with GHG's.
We are in agreement then :)
Because there is strong evidence that AGW is the reason for climate change.
There are many factors and some say that AGW isn't that important. here they are again:
The following list of confounding variables is a work in progress - at the rate that new ones are added it is quite likely that there are other climate drivers that have not yet been identified.
· Irrigation (Why is so little in the press about irrigations effect on climate?)(There is no occurrence of the word irrigation in Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis, Summary for Policymakers and only a few references in the full report - often expressing it as unknowable.)(The argument that the water vapor is only in the air for about a week is strange as some of the water re-evaporate as it hits the ground. There is also the fact that aquifers levels and river flows into the ocean really have gone down. Almost all of the Colorado river flow of 100 years ago now travels over the USA as water vapor.)
· Changes in solar output in the IR and visible spectrum space_weather (short term variations seem too small a factor on their own)
· Changes in shielding of cosmic radiation from the sun due to changes in magnetic storms (provides nucleation sites for condensation of water vapor)
· Changes in plant coverage (deforestation etc)
· The Milankovitch cycles; changes in earth's eccentricity, axial tilt, and precession over time. The way the earth orbits around the sun can create ice ages and warming periods. You might want to look at the wikipedia article and pay attention to the problems section.
· Ground level Ozone
· Changes in particles that come from the sun.
· Genetic changes in ocean algae over time http://www.uq.edu.au/news/?article=11433
· Changes in earths magnetic field.
· Changes in volcanic emissions (CO2 and other substances)
· Changes in the amount and elevation of pollution particulate (provides nucleation sites for precipitation)
· Changes in CO2 absorption and emission due to changes in plant coverage and ocean temperature.
· Changes in ozone thickness (secondary to solar cycles?)
· Changes in methane emission by plants (genetic evolutionary driven changes).
· Changes in ocean salinity due to water use - (causing changes in ocean currents).
· Changes in land reflectivity
· Snowballs from space (an open system - and there is debate if these snowballs are only a sensor artifact - such material would introduce water vapor and nucleation sites at an unknown rate with unknown changes over time )
· Changes in ice crystal reflectivity due to the temperature, water saturation, mineral content and wind speed when they are formed. (see American Scientist Jan-Feb 2007)
Nope, he doesn't
He has given no evidence at all.
Yes, he has and it's been independently verified over many years. Plus his record against the AGW people in the Met Office is 5 - 0 and they gave up! Explain that!
So, Kh. I. Abdusamatov has a long line of papers linking the Sun and climate change and doesn't accept that man is the cause of climate change.
It has not been over "shadowed by more recent papers". The link bentween cosimic rays and climate has been shown to be broken in recents decades.
Well Y=It looks like yoiu gor to read the link after the 4th or fifth time UI gave it to you!
As I said - the correlation between cosmic radiation and temperature is broken.
No, your wrong, as these current items show:

On CLOUD 9 at CERN Jul 03, 2009

“Initial results have proved encouraging, and so the experiment is being ramped up, and the new specifications are labelled CLOUD09. The current situation has recently been described by CERN's Jasper Kirkby at a CERN Colloquium on 4 June 2009. A pdf of notes by Kirkby from the colloquium is available”
http://www.thinkdigit.com/General/On-CLOUD-9-at-CERN_3136.html

Cosmic rays and climate Jasper Kirkby /CERN
CERN Colloquium, 4 June 2009

Conclusions
• Climate has continually varied in the past, and the causes are
not well understood - especially on the 100 year timescale
relevant for today’s climate change

• Strong evidence for solar-climate variability, but no established
mechanism. A cosmic ray influence on clouds is a leading
candidate

• CLOUD at CERN aims to study and quantify the cosmic raycloud
mechanism in a controlled laboratory experiment

• The question of whether - and to what extent - the climate is
influenced by solar/cosmic ray variability remains central to
our understanding of anthropogenic climate change

http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?resId=0&materialId=slides&confId=52576

Galactic cosmic rays—clouds effect and bifurcation model of the Earth global climate. Part 2. Comparison of theory with experiment Available online 11 January 2010.

Abstract
The solution of energy-balance model of the Earth global climate and the EPICA Dome C and Vostok experimental data of the Earth surface palaeotemperature evolution over past 420 and 740 kyr are compared. In the framework of proposed bifurcation model (i) the possible sharp warmings of the Dansgaard-Oeschger type during the last glacial period due to stochastic resonance is theoretically argued; (ii) the concept of climatic sensitivity of water in the atmosphere, whose temperature instability has the form of so-called hysteresis loop, is proposed, and based on this concept the time series of global ice volume over the past 1000 kyr, which is in good agreement with the time series of δ18O concentration
in the sea sediments, is obtained; (iii) the so-called “CO2 doubling” problem is discussed.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=c377b505b3bbc7985cf7ade3cf742699
And this has nothing to do with the fact that the climate changed followed by the cosmic radiation.
Or are you claiming that climate is teh vcause of cosmic rays :jaw-dropp ?
Project Astrometria idea is that it's the Sun causing climate change. They may only have part of the answer. CERN CLOUD and Professor Henrik Svensmark suggest GCR's seeding clouds but modified by the Sun is doing it and he says this: "Giant solar eruptions can cause the cosmic ray intensity on earth to dive suddenly over a few days. In the days following an eruption, cloud cover can fall by about 4 per cent. And the amount of liquid water in cloud droplets is reduced by almost 7 per cent. Here is a very large effect – indeed so great that in popular terms the Earth’s clouds originate in space."
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/...eginning-enjoy-global-warming-while-it-lasts/
Wrong.
The Sun is becoming more active.
According to the Project Astrometria logic we are now into a even more warming climate.
Look at the graph again, your misunderstanding it. Solar cycle 23, (the last blue peak, just finished) was quite active. However, solar cycle 24 (the first red peak after 2000) that has just started, is expected to be much less active and solar cycle 25 even less active. So, according to the Russians we are on the down slope to a cooling Earth. It's going to be VERY obvious very soon, it's said. Some say it's obvious already!


Obviuously you did not understand the above paper - there was a correlation. Thewre is no linger a
Nope, I think your wrong here.
I know that Svensmark and other argue is not that cosmic rays can account for all climate influences.
This means that
  1. The parametrisation in current GCMs are wrong as they fit past temperatures without taking this effect in consideration. Hence they are are reliable as tools for forecasts since the effect of cosmic rays is negligible.
  2. Climate sensitivity is overestimated by earlier attempts such as Hansens, as one major forcing was not considered when calculating those sensitivity values.
Here is a quote from him:
"In fact global warming has stopped and a cooling is beginning. Mojib Latif from the University of Kiel argued at the recent UN World Climate Conference in Geneva that the cooling may continue through the next 10 to 20 years. His explanation was a natural change in the North Atlantic circulation, not in solar activity. But no matter how you interpret them, natural variations in climate are making a comeback.

The outcome may be that the Sun itself will demonstrate its importance for climate and so challenge the theories of global warming. No climate model has predicted a cooling of the Earth – quite the contrary. And this means that the projections of future climate are unreliable. A forecast saying it may be either warmer or colder for 50 years is not very useful, and science is not yet able to predict solar activity.

So in many ways we stand at a crossroads. The near future will be extremely interesting. I think it is important to accept that Nature pays no heed to what we humans think about it. Will the greenhouse theory survive a significant cooling of the Earth? Not in its current dominant form. Unfortunately, tomorrow’s climate challenges will be quite different from the greenhouse theory’s predictions. Perhaps it will become fashionable again to investigate the Sun’s impact on our climate."
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/...eginning-enjoy-global-warming-while-it-lasts/
That is why the link is irrelevant:
Abstract "Evidence is presented that the recent worldwide land warming has occurred largely in response to a worldwide warming of the oceans rather than as a direct response to increasing greenhouse gases (GHGs) over land"
They are stating that GHG's have an effect. It is an indirect effect not a direct effect.
I see your point. What I am taking from it is that the oceans are acting as a heat store for the "active" Sun (see the Russian graph again) over the last century and as the Sun becomes less "active" the oceans give up that stored heat.
Haig,
There is proof that the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere is due to mans burning fossil fuels.
Because plants prefer the C12 isotope to the C13 isotope, and as they grow die decompose and eventually become coal and oil. The coal and oil have more C12 than C13 and as man burns coal and oil, the atmosphere should progressively contain less C13 as a percentage.
And this is exactly what is observed.
Bob, I except what your saying here. I have no doubt that man has increased the C02 levels in the atmosphere. I just don't think that it's a "driver" of climate change. I understand from the Greenland ice core data that C02 levels have been MUCH higher in the past and it ALWAYS lagged behind the warming by some 800 years.
More on this topic as well as charts and graphs here:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/human-fingerprint-in-global-warming.html
And if CO2 is only 0.038% of the atmosphere, that's still 2.6 grams of it for each and every square inch of the planet's surface.
Thanks for the link but I still seems to me there are too many variables to single out C02 as the only relevant cause. Could it be that the focus on this ONE item is more to do with "Cap and Trade" than the actual science? or is that too cynical :rolleyes:
And back on the tired old Einstein spin, your quote "In the first of three papers, all written in 1905," notes that there were three papers written in 1905, not that Einstein's first three papers were written in 1905.
Einstein’s first scientific paper was published in Annalen der Physik in March 1901.
Yes, I see your right, that he published a paper in 1901, but do you see my point (and it is only a very small point) that prestige and recognition only came much later?

RC and Bob could I have your views on this:

Others have also found correlations between the Sun and weather on Earth:Prof. Price explains. "We noticed that this bouncing was modulated by the Sun, changing throughout its 27-day cycle. The variability of the lightning activity occurring in sync with the sun's rotation suggested that the sun somehow regulates the lightning pattern." http://www.physorg.com/news177169609.html

Clear evidence of the Sun's "other effects" impacting on our climate, it seems to me ;)
 
...snipped long list of things that have not much to do with climate...
Nope, he doesn't
Yes, he has and it's been independently verified over many years. Plus his record against the AGW people in the Met Office is 5 - 0 and they gave up! Explain that!
No he has not. None of his forecasts have been independently tested. All that has happens is that someone has ticked off a list forecasts as happened. No one knows how that list was created or how it compares to a list of random forecasts. As far as I see his forecasts are the equivalent of "it will be wet in winter".

The Met office gave up on long range weather forecasts because they were scientifically tested and found to be unreliable.

So, Kh. I. Abdusamatov has a long line of papers linking the Sun and climate change and doesn't accept that man is the cause of climate change.
That is right. Kh. I. Abdusamatov has a long line of papers linking the Sun and climate change and doesn't accept that man is the cause of climate change.

And there you go with your obsession with the CLOUD 9 at CERN.
The experiment has not been done yet. All of the reports are about the pilot study that showed that it was feasible to do the experiment and get reliable results.

Galactic cosmic rays—clouds effect and bifurcation model of the Earth global climate. Part 2. Comparison of theory with experiment Available online 11 January 2010.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=c377b505b3bbc7985cf7ade3cf742699
Nice paper. Pity it is probably not about the current climate. The fact that it taks about ky should be a clue.

Look at the graph again, your misunderstanding it. Solar cycle 23, (the last blue peak, just finished) was quite active. However, solar cycle 24 (the first red peak after 2000) that has just started, is expected to be much less active and solar cycle 25 even less active. So, according to the Russians we are on the down slope to a cooling Earth. It's going to be VERY obvious very soon, it's said. Some say it's obvious already!
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_382364b8e6e69af1d0.jpg
Look at the graph again. Solar cycle 23, (the last blue peak, just finished) was quite active. There are dashed lines that the authors have put in. That may be a guess on their part. They may have some reasons for this.
However, solar cycle 24 (the first red peak after 2000) that has just started, may be less active or may be more active and solar cycle 25 may be even less or more active.
No one knows.

Nope, I think your wrong here.
I know that you are wrong.
The paper clearly states that the climate chnages were measured to came 6 months before before the change in cosmic ray flux.
Could cosmic rays be causing global warming?
Breakdown in the correlation between low clouds and cosmic rays

There are other problems proving the causality link between cosmic rays and cloud formation. One of the key proofs of Svensmark's cosmic ray theory is the high correlation between low cloud cover and cosmic rays. However, the correlation broke down in 1991 (Laut 2003). At that point, cloud cover began to lags cosmic ray trends by over 6 months while cloud formation should occur within several days (Yu 2000). The correlation completely breaks down in 1994.
Svensmark explained the 6 month lag as data uncertainty (Svensmark 2003). He also claims the loss of correlation after 1994 is due to long term calibration drift with the ISCCP satellites (Marsh & Svensmark 2001). The ISCCP disagree.

RC and Bob could I have your views on this:

Others have also found correlations between the Sun and weather on Earth:Prof. Price explains. "We noticed that this bouncing was modulated by the Sun, changing throughout its 27-day cycle. The variability of the lightning activity occurring in sync with the sun's rotation suggested that the sun somehow regulates the lightning pattern." http://www.physorg.com/news177169609.html

Clear evidence of the Sun's "other effects" impacting on our climate, it seems to me ;)
Clear evidence of the known influence of the Sun's "other effects" influencing the Earth's ionosphere :jaw-dropp !

This is not much to do with climate. It might be useful if you were interested in predicting the occurrence of lightning, e.g. you would expect a 27-day cycle in that.
 
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No he has not. None of his forecasts have been independently tested. All that has happens is that someone has ticked off a list forecasts as happened. No one knows how that list was created or how it compares to a list of random forecasts. As far as I see his forecasts are the equivalent of "it will be wet in winter".
Yes he has. I’d say his forecasts have been “tested” fairly, over many years, by two independent bodies with good reputations: The University of Sunderland and WeatherNet

“Early Weather Action (Solar Weather Technique) skill was independently verified in a peer-reviewed paper by Dr Dennis Wheeler, University of Sunderland, in the Journal of Atmospheric and Solar-Terrestrial Physics, Vol 63 (2001) p29-34”
http://www.weatheraction.com/pages/pv.asp?p=wact5&fsize=0

Martin Lilley (BSc. Hons)
Meteorologist - WeatherNet Ltd

Audit on Severe Weather Event Predictions Made by Weather Action Oct 08 - Apr 09
“Weather Action achieved an overall score of 8.5/9 for US based predictions.”
http://www.weatheraction.com/pages/data/WAcoverletter.pdf

I know the above is NOT what you mean by “TESTED” but it is valid under the scientific method whereby a theory allows predictions to be made and if they are confirmed, as they have been with the “solar weather technique”, then the theory has merit and has NOT been disproved.

What I particularly like about Piers Corbyn and his SWT is when he makes public predictions about the weather, weeks and months in advance, allowing anybody to judge him. In the few months I’ve been checking them it’s been very accurate, just look now, March 2010:
Late March Snow Britain & USA confirm
WeatherAction forecasts “Spot On”
http://www.weatheraction.com/docs/WANews10No14.pdf

Really RC, you will have to do better if you want to rubbish PC but why would you want to? Isn’t it better to look into how he does it?
“It’s conclusive Piers Corbyn is on to something significant using the Solar Weather Technique to with high accuracy predict the future weather and climate. Not a soothsayer but a true scientist working his craft.”
http://pathstoknowledge.net/2009/11...s-while-the-solar-weather-technique-succeeds/
The Met office gave up on long range weather forecasts because they were scientifically tested and found to be unreliable.
No, that's not quite right. They've given up publicly announcing them because of the criticisms when they keep getting them wrong (PC 5-0 Met) They still plan to develop the science of long range weather forecasting behind closed doors:-
"The Met Office, based at Exeter in Devon, added that it would work towards developing the science of long range forecasting."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/7378853/Met-Office-drops-seasonal-forecast.html
That is right. Kh. I. Abdusamatov has a long line of papers linking the Sun and climate change and doesn't accept that man is the cause of climate change.
Here is a quote from Abdusamatov that concludes that natural causes are likely more to blame than human activities for the observed rising temperatures. I include a few other quotes from scientists that agree with this view.

RC, I know these won’t convince you that AGW is wrong but I’m puzzled how you dissmiss them? Without more evidance that it is humans causing climate change shouldn’t we just prepare for the cooling, (as it’s the worst case senario) that the Russians say, is coming?
http://search.intelius.com/Khabibul...tp://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/75628-0/

This rush towards a “carbon tax” to save the planet, seems politically motivated to me and as, a layman, more “unconvincing” the more I look into it. You seem a logical person, show me were I’m going wrong? Or maybe you can join me on this fence?

Khabibullo Ismailovich Abdusamatov, mathematician and astronomer at Pulkovskaya Observatory of the Russian Academy of Sciences and the supervisor of the Astrometria project of the Russian section of the International Space Station: "Global warming results not from the emission of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, but from an unusually high level of solar radiation and a lengthy - almost throughout the last century - growth in its intensity…Ascribing 'greenhouse' effect properties to the Earth's atmosphere is not scientifically substantiated…Heated greenhouse gases, which become lighter as a result of expansion, ascend to the atmosphere only to give the absorbed heat away."

Some other views also from "the other side of the argument":-

Reid Bryson, emeritus professor of Meterorology: "It’s absurd. Of course it’s going up. It has gone up since the early 1800s, before the Industrial Revolution, because we’re coming out of the Little Ice Age, not because we’re putting more carbon dioxide into the air."

Ian Clark, hydrogeologist, professor, Department of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa: "That portion of the scientific community that attributes climate warming to CO2 relies on the hypothesis that increasing CO2, which is in fact a minor greenhouse gas, triggers a much larger water vapour response to warm the atmosphere. This mechanism has never been tested scientifically beyond the mathematical models that predict extensive warming, and are confounded by the complexity of cloud formation - which has a cooling effect. … We know that [the sun] was responsible for climate change in the past, and so is clearly going to play the lead role in present and future climate change. And interestingly… solar activity has recently begun a downward cycle."

William M. Gray, Professor of Atmospheric Science, Colorado State University: "This small warming is likely a result of the natural alterations in global ocean currents which are driven by ocean salinity variations. Ocean circulation variations are as yet little understood. Human kind has little or nothing to do with the recent temperature changes. We are not that influential. I am of the opinion that [global warming] is one of the greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated on the American people. So many people have a vested interest in this global-warming thing—all these big labs and research and stuff. The idea is to frighten the public, to get money to study it more."

Yuri Izrael, vice-chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, "There is no proven link between human activity and global warming."

Zbigniew Jaworowski, chair of the Scientific Council at the Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection in Warsaw: "The atmospheric temperature variations do not follow the changes in the concentrations of CO2 … climate change fluctuations comes … from cosmic radiation."

Marcel Leroux, former Professor of Climatology, Université Jean Moulin: "The possible causes, then, of climate change are: well-established orbital parameters on the palaeoclimatic scale, … solar activity, …; volcanism …; and far at the rear, the greenhouse effect, and in particular that caused by water vapor, the extent of its influence being unknown. These factors are working together all the time, and it seems difficult to unravel the relative importance of their respective influences upon climatic evolution. Equally, it is tendentious to highlight the anthropic factor, which is, clearly, the least credible among all those previously mentioned."

Tim Patterson, paleoclimatologist and Professor of Geology at Carleton University in Canada: "There is no meaningful correlation between CO2 levels and Earth's temperature over this [geologic] time frame. In fact, when CO2 levels were over ten times higher than they are now, about 450 million years ago, the planet was in the depths of the absolute coldest period in the last half billion years. On the basis of this evidence, how could anyone still believe that the recent relatively small increase in CO2 levels would be the major cause of the past century's modest warming?"

Frederick Seitz, retired, former solid-state physicist, former president of the National Academy of Sciences: "So we see that the scientific facts indicate that all the temperature changes observed in the last 100 years were largely natural changes and were not caused by carbon dioxide produced in human activities."

Nir Shaviv, astrophysicist at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem: "The truth is probably somewhere in between [the common view and that of skeptics], with natural causes probably being more important over the past century, whereas anthropogenic causes will probably be more dominant over the next century. … About 2/3's (give or take a third or so) of the warming [over the past century] should be attributed to increased solar activity and the remaining to anthropogenic causes."

Willie Soon, Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics: "There's increasingly strong evidence that previous research conclusions, including those of the United Nations and the United States government concerning 20th century warming, may have been biased by underestimation of natural climate variations. The bottom line is that if these variations are indeed proven true, then, yes, natural climate fluctuations could be a dominant factor in the recent warming. In other words, natural factors could be more important than previously assumed."

Henrik Svensmark, Danish National Space Center: "Our team … has discovered that the relatively few cosmic rays that reach sea-level play a big part in the everyday weather. They help to make low-level clouds, which largely regulate the Earth’s surface temperature. During the 20th Century the influx of cosmic rays decreased and the resulting reduction of cloudiness allowed the world to warm up. … most of the warming during the 20th Century can be explained by a reduction in low cloud cover."

Syun-Ichi Akasofu, retired professor of geophysics and Director of the International Arctic Research Center of the University of Alaska Fairbanks: "Thus, there is a possibility that only a fraction of the present warming trend may be attributed to the greenhouse effect resulting from human activities. This conclusion is contrary to the IPCC (2007) Report, which states that “most” of the present warming (+0.7°C/100 years) is due to the greenhouse effect."

Claude Allègre, geochemist, Institute of Geophysics (Paris): "The increase in the CO2 content of the atmosphere is an observed fact and mankind is most certainly responsible. In the long term, this increase will without doubt become harmful, but its exact role in the climate is less clear. Various parameters appear more important than CO2. Consider the water cycle and formation of various types of clouds, and the complex effects of industrial or agricultural dust. Or fluctuations of the intensity of the solar radiation on annual and century scale, which seem better correlated with heating effects than the variations of CO2 content."

August H. "Augie" Auer Jr., retired New Zealand MetService Meteorologist, past professor of atmospheric science at the University of Wyoming: "So if you multiply the total contribution 3.6 by the man-made portion of it, 3.2, you find out that the anthropogenic contribution of CO2 to the the global greenhouse effect is 0.117 percent, roughly 0.12 percent, that's like 12c in $100." "'It's miniscule … it's nothing,'".

Richard Lindzen, Alfred Sloane Professor of Atmospheric Science at the Massachussetts Institute of Technology and member of the National Academy of Sciences: "We are quite confident (1) that global mean temperature is about 0.5 °C higher than it was a century ago; (2) that atmospheric levels of CO2 have risen over the past two centuries; and (3) that CO2 is a greenhouse gas whose increase is likely to warm the earth (one of many, the most important being water vapor and clouds). But–and I cannot stress this enough–we are not in a position to confidently attribute past climate change to CO2 or to forecast what the climate will be in the future. There has been no question whatsoever that CO2 is an infrared absorber (i.e., a greenhouse gas — albeit a minor one), and its increase should theoretically contribute to warming. Indeed, if all else were kept equal, the increase in CO2 should have led to somewhat more warming than has been observed."
And there you go with your obsession with the CLOUD 9 at CERN.
The experiment has not been done yet. All of the reports are about the pilot study that showed that it was feasible to do the experiment and get reliable results.
It’s going too far to say I have an obsession with CLOUD but I AM very interested in it’s implications for Project Astrometria and Piers Corbyn’s Solar Weather Technique. Could it be a possible mechanism, whereby the Sun’s output affects our climate, by modifying GCR’s?

Your bias is showing RC. You said, “the correlation between cosmic radiation and temperature is broken.” However, the well presented and recent “Cosmic rays and climate” Jasper Kirkby /CERN CERN Colloquium, 4 June 2009 shows it is not!
http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?resId=0&materialId=slides&confId=52576 give it time to load, it's big!

Cosmic Rays and Climate 26 Mar 2008
“Over the last few years, however, diverse reconstructions of past climate change have revealed clear associations with cosmic ray variations recorded in cosmogenic isotope archives, providing persuasive evidence for solar or cosmic ray forcing of the climate.”

“Considerable progress on understanding ion-aerosol-cloud processes has been made in recent years, and the results are suggestive of a physically-plausible link between cosmic rays, clouds and climate.”
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1098138

Latest news articles on CLOUD Nov 2009
“CLOUD has finished its assembly phase and is starting taking data using a beam of protons from the 50 year-old Proton Synchrotron (PS). Here is a quick detour around a cutting-edge physics experiment that will shed light on climate-related matters.”
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/journal/CERNBulletin/2009/47/News Articles/1221077?ln=en

“supported by satellite measurements, which show a possible correlation between cosmic-ray intensity and the amount of low cloud cover. Clouds exert a strong influence on the Earth’s energy balance; changes of only a few per cent have an important effect on the climate.”
http://the-daily-politics.blogspot.com/2009/11/climategate-cosmic-ray-of-sunshine.html
Nice paper. Pity it is probably not about the current climate. The fact that it taks about ky should be a clue.
Yes, it is a nice paper. It isn’t about the present climate; don’t you think we can learn about what may happen in the future by studying the past?
“Galactic cosmic rays—clouds effect and bifurcation model of the Earth global climate. Part 2. Comparison of theory with experiment”

“Earth surface palaeotemperature evolution over past 420 and 740 kyr are compared.”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=c377b505b3bbc7985cf7ade3cf742699

The IPCC seem to think you can learn about climate from the past too:
“Palaeoclimatic records document a sequence of glacial-interglacial cycles covering the last 740 kyr in ice cores”

Climate Forcings and Responses Over Glacial-Interglacial Cycles
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch6s6-4.html

It wasn’t “Man” back then and it, seems unlikely, to be “Man” causing climate change in the present, that’s the point! eg:

“Thus the high goodness of fit between the experimental (Fig. 3d) and theoretical (Fig. 3c) data is a validity indicator of main assumption used in our model; we assume that the temperature of ECS is caused both the variations of isolation and variations of GCR intensity (or, equivalently, variations of Earth magnetic field).

It can be concluded from the above mentioned that the most important, in our opinion, statement of presented model is the fact that the Earth climate, on the one hand, is completely defined by the two controlling parameters - isolation and galactic cosmic rays - and, in the other hand, is quite predictable on the millennial time scales if only theoretical or experimental values on long-term variations of relative palaeointensity HÅ(t) are present.”
http://ikfia.ysn.ru/pdf/Cosmic_Ray_Symp/s1.33.pdf
Look at the graph again. Solar cycle 23, (the last blue peak, just finished) was quite active. There are dashed lines that the authors have put in. That may be a guess on their part. They may have some reasons for this.
thum_382364b8e6e69af1d0.jpg
Yes, look at the graph again: The astrophysists who study the Sun in Project Astrometria, aren’t guessing, but following the trends in the solar activity. Just as the scientists in Weatheraction, CLOUD and NASA are doing and they are also expecting a less active Sun in solar cycles 24 and 25. These “trends” are predictable but the periods less so. Solar cycle 23 just finished took over 2 years longer than the average 11 years. The peak was much less than Solar Cycle 22 and that was less than Solar Cycle 21, hence, we are on a down slope of solar activity. There are many solar cycles displayed in that graph: the Schwabe, Hale, Gleissberg, and Suess cycles to name a few.
It’s OT but if you look at this paper, it may help you see how graphs like that are read by the astrophysists: POSSIBLE EVIDENCE OF THE DE VRIES, GLEISSBERG AND HALE CYCLES IN THE SUN’S BARYCENTRIC MOTION
“the dominant periodicities that are seen in the long-term level of solar activity i.e. the de Vries (210 years), Gleissberg (90 years), and Hale (22.3 years) cycles,”
http://www.aip.org.au/Congress2006/625.pdf
However, solar cycle 24 (the first red peak after 2000) that has just started, may be less active or may be more active and solar cycle 25 may be even less or more active. No one knows.
Well RC I doubt you’ve accepted much of what I’ve said up to now but maybe you’ll listen to NASA?
Latest from NASA on the Sunspot Cycles and a less active Sun

The Sunspot Cycle (Updated 2010/04/01)
“the magnetic activity that accompanies the sunspots can produce dramatic changes in the ultraviolet and soft x-ray emission levels. These changes over the solar cycle have important consequences for the Earth's upper atmosphere.”
http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/SunspotCycle.shtml

Solar Cycle Prediction (Updated 2010/04/01)
“Both methods give larger than average amplitude to Cycle 24 while its delayed start and low minimum strongly suggest a much smaller cycle”
http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/predict.shtml
I know that you are wrong.
The paper clearly states that the climate chnages were measured to came 6 months before before the change in cosmic ray flux.
Could cosmic rays be causing global warming?
Don’t think so RC. It’s known that an active Sun suppresses the effects/amount of GCR arriving on Earth (the Greenland ice core data) If you look at our graph again, (the top one) shows TSI at its highest values, between the years 1970 and 2000 approx. That’s why the cosmic ray effect was reduced and, incidentally, why the last century was “warming” due to the active Sun. So, your point about the climate changes coming 6 months before the change in GCR confirms the Sun is doing the forcing.

We appear to be on the down slope of a less active Sun so GCR’s will become more important – a cooling climate!

“The statistically significant non-linear cosmic ray effect is small, but it will
have a considerably larger aggregate effect on longer timescale”
http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU06/07661/EGU06-J-07661.pdf
Clear evidence of the known influence of the Sun's "other effects" influencing the Earth's ionosphere :jaw-dropp !
These quotes from it makes it very clear IMO:
“Prof. Price, an acclaimed climate change scientist, believes it may help scientists formulate new questions about the sun's effect on our climate.” and
"because nothing has been done to investigate the links between changing weather patterns and the rotation of the sun
This is not much to do with climate. It might be useful if you were interested in predicting the occurrence of lightning, e.g. you would expect a 27-day cycle in that.
Something else RC that you ignored, that suggests the Sun regulates lightning here on Earth but how could that be possible?
“The variability of the lightning activity occurring in sync with the sun's rotation suggested that the sun somehow regulates the lightning pattern”.

Lightning and thunderstorms are part of our weather and climate and this correlation with the changes in the position of the Earth’s ionosphere, suspiciously in tandem with the Sun's rotation I find fascinating and relevant to this topic.
http://www.physorg.com/news177169609.html
 
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Haig, maybe you should provide more that unsubstantiated and replicated press release informtion?
http://www.physorg.com/news177169609.html

That is interesting but given the nature of the press release you can't draw any conclusions.

back to Corbyn, where is the blinding?

You have offered some links, but I want to know the specifics, what did he predict and when?
What are the protocols for judging his accuracy?

This is really weak!
http://www.weatheraction.com/pages/data/WAaudit.pdf

Sorry but just picking one six month period and claiming success is not good statistics, I should not have to explain to you what smaple bias and sample error are.

If they judged by ALL the forcasts that this person has made that would be a little more accurate, if they randomly sampled his frocasts , that would be more accurate.
If they had a double blinded rating protocol, that would be more accurate. (The blinding on what the 'prediction' is and what the 'data' shows.)

that PDF does not gives us anything, it is not a good analysis, it is prone to error.
 
Then there is this:
http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU06/07661/EGU06-J-07661.pdf

You quote an abstract which means little to nothing. There is no edata to judge, there is no way at all to judge the meaning of the statement
Furthermore, during sudden transient reductions
in cosmic rays (e.g. Forbush events), simultaneous decreases occur in the diffuse
fraction, showing that the diffuse radiation changes are unambiguously due to cosmic
rays. The statistically significant non-linear cosmic ray effect is small, but it will
have a considerably larger aggregate effect on longer timescale (e.g. century) climate
variations when day-to-day variability averages out.
because they don't even say what that statistical measure is now do they? Hmmmm.

And the actual paper is not available on line. The only people who seem to cite this paper are the authors.

So no data to judge, no standard deviation, no way to judge the meaning of this abstract.
 
Nothing like cherry picking quotes:
http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/SunspotCycle.shtml
Although sunspots themselves produce only minor effects on solar emissions, the magnetic activity that accompanies the sunspots can produce dramatic changes in the ultraviolet and soft x-ray emission levels. These changes over the solar cycle have important consequences for the Earth's upper atmosphere.
Oh, you mean something that is unrelated to the topic of the paper. You do know what the ionosphere is, it also goes up and down everyday, gee, I wonder what that almost vacum has to do with global warming?

No link in this paper, just you quote mining.

If you wish to make a point I have some suggestions for you.

1. Make it coherent.
2. Make it relevant.
3. Show consistent patterns.

What you have is a bunch of disparate facts that often are not related at all to your thesis.
 
Haig, maybe you should provide more that unsubstantiated and replicated press release informtion?
http://www.physorg.com/news177169609.html
That is interesting but given the nature of the press release you can't draw any conclusions.
I take your point DD, here’s the best I can do: more of the same
A Lightning Strike in Africa Helps Take the Pulse of the Sun
http://www.aftau.org/site/News2/275217992?page=NewsArticle&id=10921&news_iv_ctrl=-1
Accurate tool for tracking solar rotation discovered
http://spacefellowship.com/news/art15594/accurate-tool-for-tracking-solar-rotation-discovered.html

I’m sure there are better, more scientific, sources but pay-walls and time forbids, what do you expect from a layman? Do you think it’s a hoax like AGW?;)
back to Corbyn, where is the blinding?
You have offered some links, but I want to know the specifics, what did he predict and when?
What are the protocols for judging his accuracy?
This is really weak!
http://www.weatheraction.com/pages/data/WAaudit.pdf
Sorry but just picking one six month period and claiming success is not good statistics, I should not have to explain to you what smaple bias and sample error are.
If they judged by ALL the forcasts that this person has made that would be a little more accurate, if they randomly sampled his frocasts , that would be more accurate.
If they had a double blinded rating protocol, that would be more accurate. (The blinding on what the 'prediction' is and what the 'data' shows.)
that PDF does not gives us anything, it is not a good analysis, it is prone to error.
Ah! You don’t like Piers Corbyn do you? Is it because he has made fools of the peer-reviewed, AGW, climate scientists at the Met Office, here in the UK? Their score is 0 out of 5. That’s the last three winters and two summers totally wrong and Piers Corbyn got them all correct, from months in advance.

Sure, you can’t pick over his peer-reviewed papers on how he did it (yet), and try to rubbish him, but I think that’s why your side, seems to, get so frustrated with him. He just makes these predictions and they actually happen, it’s called evidence-based science, he says.

He’s been doing this for two decades, I understand, and getting more accurate in his predictions as he refines his Solar Weather Technique (SWT)

You have a dismissive view of the objectiveness and independence of The University of Sunderland and WeatherNet and their testing of PC and your entitled to your view but, as a layman, I find them worthy.

What are the protocols for judging the accuracy (or not) of the Met Offices record of long-range weather predictions? I understand they have some peer-reviewed papers on it.:D
Then there is this:
http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU06/07661/EGU06-J-07661.pdf
You quote an abstract which means little to nothing. There is no edata to judge, there is no way at all to judge the meaning of the statement
because they don't even say what that statistical measure is now do they? Hmmmm.
And the actual paper is not available on line. The only people who seem to cite this paper are the authors.
So no data to judge, no standard deviation, no way to judge the meaning of this abstract.
Yes, you’re right.

Here is the paper I should have linked to:

Empirical evidence for a nonlinear effect of galactic cosmic rays on clouds
BY R. GILES HARRISON* AND DAVID B. STEPHENSON
“In summary, our data analysis confirms the existence of a small, yet statistically robust, cosmic ray effect on clouds, that will emerge on long time scales with less variability than the considerable variability of daily cloudiness.”
http://earthshine.dmi.dk/tellux/HarrisonStephensonGCRClouds.pdf
Nothing like cherry picking quotes:
http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/SunspotCycle.shtml

Oh, you mean something that is unrelated to the topic of the paper. You do know what the ionosphere is, it also goes up and down everyday, gee, I wonder what that almost vacum has to do with global warming?

No link in this paper, just you quote mining.

If you wish to make a point I have some suggestions for you.

1. Make it coherent.
2. Make it relevant.
3. Show consistent patterns.

What you have is a bunch of disparate facts that often are not related at all to your thesis.
Be fair DD those “cherry picked” quotes from NASA were to annoy answer RC when he said this: “However, solar cycle 24 (the first red peak after 2000) that has just started, may be less active or may be more active and solar cycle 25 may be even less or more active. No one knows.” but NASA say solar cycle 24 will be "less" active and they know. Am I excused?

Sure I know what the ionosphere is. It’s that top part of our atmosphere that, somehow, has a link to our Sun so it can affect “The variability of the lightning activity occurring in sync with the sun's rotation suggested that the sun somehow regulates the lightning pattern”.:D
http://www.physorg.com/news177169609.html

So what has the above got to do with climate? and this thread, if it comes to that!
Well, IMO it shows another example of how our Sun is the main driver of events here on Earth and not man and that is the idea behind Project Astrometria as I understand it.

Thanks for your suggestions but I do think I make it coherent, relevant and with consistent patterns. The OT has been de-railed a few times and I do try to answer questions put to me fairly.

Remember I’m actually an “unsure” in the climate debate and all I’m really trying to do is show the Russians might be right and the science is NOT settled on AGW with my devils advocate stance here.:rolleyes:
 
I take your point DD, here’s the best I can do: more of the same
A Lightning Strike in Africa Helps Take the Pulse of the Sun
http://www.aftau.org/site/News2/275217992?page=NewsArticle&id=10921&news_iv_ctrl=-1
Accurate tool for tracking solar rotation discovered
http://spacefellowship.com/news/art15594/accurate-tool-for-tracking-solar-rotation-discovered.html

I’m sure there are better, more scientific, sources but pay-walls and time forbids, what do you expect from a layman? Do you think it’s a hoax like AGW?;)
Got a chip on your shoulder?
I stated exactly why I said what I said.
Ah! You don’t like Piers Corbyn do you? Is it because he has made fools of the peer-reviewed, AGW, climate scientists at the Met Office, here in the UK? Their score is 0 out of 5. That’s the last three winters and two summers totally wrong and Piers Corbyn got them all correct, from months in advance.
Get off the pony dude, if you can't understand a critique of a paper you presented, then no amount of explanation will suffice.
Possible sample bias and lack of blinding.
Sure, you can’t pick over his peer-reviewed papers on how he did it (yet), and try to rubbish him, but I think that’s why your side, seems to, get so frustrated with him. He just makes these predictions and they actually happen, it’s called evidence-based science, he says.
You have an agenda, and keep making up ****. Way to show how you engage in critical thinking.
Someone, me, offered a critique. But you are here to ride your pony.

Giddyap.
He’s been doing this for two decades, I understand, and getting more accurate in his predictions as he refines his Solar Weather Technique (SWT)
Considering you haven't offered a controlled study of his predictions, which would be easy to do, that is just you stating something without evidence.
You have a dismissive view of the objectiveness and independence of The University of Sunderland and WeatherNet and their testing of PC and your entitled to your view but, as a layman, I find them worthy.
Apparently you can not discern a critique of method from your political ********. That is not a good sample, nor was their blinding.

I won't tell you what those terms mean, you obviously don't care.
What are the protocols for judging the accuracy (or not) of the Met Offices record of long-range weather predictions? I understand they have some peer-reviewed papers on it.:D
Yes, you’re right.
Not my statement *******.
Here is the paper I should have linked to:

Empirical evidence for a nonlinear effect of galactic cosmic rays on clouds
BY R. GILES HARRISON* AND DAVID B. STEPHENSON
“In summary, our data analysis confirms the existence of a small, yet statistically robust, cosmic ray effect on clouds, that will emerge on long time scales with less variability than the considerable variability of daily cloudiness.”
http://earthshine.dmi.dk/tellux/HarrisonStephensonGCRClouds.pdf
Be fair DD those “cherry picked” quotes from NASA were to annoy answer RC when he said this: “However, solar cycle 24 (the first red peak after 2000) that has just started, may be less active or may be more active and solar cycle 25 may be even less or more active. No one knows.” but NASA say solar cycle 24 will be "less" active and they know. Am I excused?

Sure I know what the ionosphere is. It’s that top part of our atmosphere that, somehow, has a link to our Sun so it can affect “The variability of the lightning activity occurring in sync with the sun's rotation suggested that the sun somehow regulates the lightning pattern”.:D
http://www.physorg.com/news177169609.html

So what has the above got to do with climate? and this thread, if it comes to that!
Well, IMO it shows another example of how our Sun is the main driver of events here on Earth and not man and that is the idea behind Project Astrometria as I understand it.

Thanks for your suggestions but I do think I make it coherent, relevant and with consistent patterns. The OT has been de-railed a few times and I do try to answer questions put to me fairly.

Remember I’m actually an “unsure” in the climate debate and all I’m really trying to do is show the Russians might be right and the science is NOT settled on AGW with my devils advocate stance here.:rolleyes:

No you aren't, you are acting foolish, I will read those papers, but considering your agenda here, i doubt it matters. You are not playing with anything other than your own head. I gave valid un-rude critiques your ******** blinds you.
 
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