What Is The Soul?

[Achán hiNidráne]

The rapture is about a 200 year old teaching of John Darby. It is not a Bible teaching.

And yet it is sound theology for millions of Christians world wide. Or are you going to play the "no true Christian" fallacy?

 

[H3LL]

something is traveling to Heaven? where is Heaven and what is it?

The bible is very clear on the subject it seems:





The Bible for beginners (Part 2)




.

 

[DC]

If I would have to guess you are talking about the soul going either to heaven or to hell. The soul doesn't go to heaven. If you are talking about the spirit it doesn't go to heaven either. If you are talking about exactly who goes to heaven the answer is 144,000 annointed spiritual believers in Christ, and it is in spirit form and they go immediately upon death. The rest of us remain dead either to be resurrected at the conclusion of Satan's system of things or they remain dead in the grave eternally.

i never ever understood how someone can belive that stuff.

 

[DC]

The bible is very clear on the subject it seems:





The Bible for beginners (Part 2)




.

lol

 

[Trent Wray]

What exactly do you mean by meet God? Say hello, shake his hand, have lunch

Yes this.

or confirm his existence in some meaningful way in which you ask earnestly for out of a desire to know him?

If the latter I could possibly arrange that if you do as I tell you.

Not this. This is you being god. You do see that right? "The only way to the Father is through doing what David Henson tells you." I can already tell you're not god. Or Jesus probably. Unless you can exercise god-like power. Can you perform miracles?

confirm his existence in some meaningful way in which you ask earnestly for out of a desire to know him

This I've done a million and one times. I'm not content with the ambiguity of it. Are you?

 

[Brian-M]

Could you epand on this? Are you saying that 500 witnesses wasn't enough but maybe 700 would be?

No, I'm saying that if 500 people witnessed it, why don't we have any eyewitness accounts? Surely some of them would have recorded it at the time, saying that they actually saw this amazing event happen with their own eyes. All we have is other people claiming that Jesus was seen over 500 people.

I'm not a scientist. If you are then I suggest you get busy testing it.

To test it you need believers to drink poison to prove it. Would you like to volunteer?

Mark 16:8-20 are spurious.

spurious (comparative more spurious, superlative most spurious)
1. false, not authentic, not genuine
2. (archaic) bastardly, illegitimate

Well, I won't dispute that. In fact, I'd go one step further and say that the entire New Testament is spurious.

But do you have a specific reason for discarding that portion of The Bible, other than the fact that it clearly does not match up with reality?

We are talking about the soul here. If you want to discuss the above start a new thread and I will get to it when I have dealt with these.

But you were the one who brought up the caught with bloody knife over fresh body scenario, not me. Just forget it.

Exactly. Then do it.

I can't be bothered. I'm not interested in actively trying to disprove The Bible to others.

I am here to discuss what the Bible says about the soul.

Why do you people keep saying that I am here to convince you of something. I'm trying to have a discussion about what the Bible says about the soul.

And it's already been pointed out that the word soul was never used in The Bible in it's original form, because the word didn't exist. The words that are translated as soul in modern versions do not exactly mean the same thing as soul as it's commonly used. Maybe you should be discussing nephesh as used in The Bible instead?

David, have you given a comprehensive definition of "soul" yet?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5766369&postcount=81

Looking back at that post...

I'm saying that the Bible defines the soul as [1] the blood or the live of a person or breathing animal. The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ [2] signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means [3] not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] [4] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15,*17; 13.37).”—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.

(Highlighted numbers added for reference.)

So your definition for soul is...

1. Blood (and only the blood) of a living person or animal.
2. Life itself, as well as the manifestations of life.
3. An entire living person.
4. The life of an individual conscious human

The first definition is not compatible with the next three, so which do you mean?

Does the word soul only refer to blood, in which case, why call it soul and not blood, except to confuse the issue? Just call it blood, so everyone can agree on what is being talked about.

Or does the word soul refer to the process of life, in which case as soul is not something that exists, but something that happens. (You wouldn't say that falling exists or eating exists either. These are things which happen, not things which are.) But any way, why call it soul and not life, except to confuse the issue? Just call it life, so everyone can agree on what is being talked about.

But if you insist on redefining the word for something supernatural to mean something mundane, can I get in on the action too? I'd like to claim that the word YHWH originally referred to an anthropomorphic concept of wind, and the stories of The Bible are full of hot air.

 

[Robin]

I'm not skipping I'm giving you two possibilities to explain your interpretation of Ezekiel 18:20-21, 31.

Is it spiritual death or resurrection? Also, I don't recall you having answered my question. What makes you think the spirit was ever alive.

And I already explained why - the question was off topic. Your thread is about the Biblical meaning of soul, not spirit.

That is the subject I am specifically addressing.

I don't accept that the soul is immortal according to the Hebrew or Greek scripture.

So you are saying that the soul (nephesh) will die whether or not it sins?

Do you have Biblical support for that position?

 

[Nonpareil]

I'm saying that the Bible defines the soul as the blood or the live of a person or breathing animal.

Then this is an utterly useless term, as we already have a perfectly good word for blood. We call it "blood". Why make up a new word to describe something we know about?

The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15,*17; 13.37).”—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.

The purpose of this thread is to educate the typically uninformed skeptic of the variation between the Bible and the teachings of modern day Christianity which adopted the idea of the immortal soul.

When I hear skeptics, especially science minded atheists, criticising the Bible, they are actually criticising those pagan teachings.

Whichever definition you choose, it is still utterly useless, as we have perfectly good words already to describe these things. So what, exactly, is it that you think that defining "soul" as "life" or "blood" does?

 

[David Henson]

Another interesting question is this (please answer if you can): if someone showed you that there was no flood, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what would this mean in regards to your faith? Would you claim the flood myth to be allegory, or would you throw the entire bible out the window?

Throw the entire Bible out the window. That is what I would do.

 

[David Henson]

Better answer. Thanks. I hope you don't mind my correction. It's more in line with what I was looking for.

Do you believe they are awarded the spirit form at the moment of death or do they have the spirit form before?

I have already told you. At death. Not before.

Does everyone have this spirit form but only the smeared, gross thousand get to use it?

.

No. They are resurrected upon death into spirit creatures. Flesh and blood can't go to heaven, only spirit creatures.

 

[Belz...]

That makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. What travels to heaven? spirit creatures / angels. What would be a good name for whatever it is? Whatever its name is. When do we get it? Never.

If I would have to guess you are talking about the soul going either to heaven or to hell. The soul doesn't go to heaven. If you are talking about the spirit it doesn't go to heaven either. If you are talking about exactly who goes to heaven the answer is 144,000 annointed spiritual believers in Christ, and it is in spirit form and they go immediately upon death. The rest of us remain dead either to be resurrected at the conclusion of Satan's system of things or they remain dead in the grave eternally.

That's a nice bunch of speculations, right there.

Evidence ?

 

[David Henson]

And yet it is sound theology for millions of Christians world wide. Or are you going to play the "no true Christian" fallacy?

I don't know what the "no true Christian" fallacy is so I will just say read 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

 

[David Henson]

Yes this.

I would ask you not to be ridiculous, but its far too late for that.

Not this. This is you being god. You do see that right? "The only way to the Father is through doing what David Henson tells you." I can already tell you're not god. Or Jesus probably. Unless you can exercise god-like power. Can you perform miracles?

Okay. No. No. No. Good. Thats correct. You mean like Jannes and Jambres before Moses or the disciples of Christ? No.

This I've done a million and one times. I'm not content with the ambiguity of it. Are you?

It depends. Are you saying that you are incapable of having faith?

 

[Robin]

Then this is an utterly useless term, as we already have a perfectly good word for blood. We call it "blood". Why make up a new word to describe something we know about?

As I pointed out before, the word is used in the Old Testament in many different ways, blood, heart, breath, mind, person, man, human, self, creature, creatures etc...

Like any language the meaning is a function of the context.

David Henson is taking the usage in one particular section of the Bible and saying that is what it means and then ignoring the way it is used in the rest of the Bible.

 

[Foster Zygote]

something is traveling to Heaven? where is Heaven and what is it?

Heaven is an invention of Christians who got tired of waiting for Jesus to come back in the lifetime of their dead great-grandparents.

 

[Foster Zygote]

But do you have a specific reason for discarding that portion of The Bible, other than the fact that it clearly does not match up with reality.

The last twelve verses of Mark do not appear in the earliest and best textual witnesses. They are almost certainly a later scribal addition.

 

[Foster Zygote]

It depends. Are you saying that you are incapable of having faith?

Why is faith to be so highly valued? Faith, in this context, is belief without reason for belief. In this way how is faith in the resurrection of Jeshua ben Joseph any different from faith in Vishnu or Santa Clause?

 

[Paulhoff]

Is it not the same with atheists?

Yea, we just go around asking else other how to you not believe in a so-called god.

Paul

 

[Paulhoff]

Again, first you have to define sin. Though this isn't a thread about sin.

For you breaking one of over the 600 commandments in the bible, I sure hope you're not wearing mixed treads.

Paul

 

[David Henson]

And I already explained why - the question was off topic. Your thread is about the Biblical meaning of soul, not spirit.

That is the subject I am specifically addressing.

So clearly this is suggesting that a soul might not die and that a spirit is something that will die and will need to be renewed. Which is quite the opposite of what you are suggesting.

Psyche and spirit both come from words that can mean "breath" and I also note that Strongs says of nephesh "From naphash; properly, a breathing creature". In Genesis 2:7 God breathes into the nostrils of the man he has formed and the man becomes a nephesh.

So I think the words are closer than you think and also each can mean a number of things.

It is probably a mistake to assume that the usage of these words in the Bible was any more precise or less ambiguous than the usage of the equivalent words we have in our language today.

So you are saying that the soul (nephesh) will die whether or not it sins?

What soul is without sin? Since those who are mentioned in the Bible as being spiritually alive are not free from sin until they are resurrected and without sin you are obviously not interpreting a spiritual death, so we move on . . .

Do you have Biblical support for that position?

If, in the scriptures you gave, the soul dieing means that the person is dieing and Jesus is without sin and yet died isn't that Biblical support? (Matthew 26:38; Mark 14:34, AV)