Porn vs. Art

The fact that they fit a sufficiently widely recognised meaning of "art".

I don't think that your claim that something is art when it is meant to be art is correct. We simply disagree on the basic definition. Apparently, most people here think that something is art when it is considered so. In fact, our definition is broader than yours as it includes it.

By your reckoning ANY image of a child being abused is art. That's not only technically incorrect but highly dangerous territory, as it opens the door to legitimacy of child pornography.

That is an odd statement. Are you saying that, in your opinion, art is always legitimate ?
 
Yes, he does think that. He claims to know a lot of things and then contradicts himself. Quite typical really. A person feels inadequate in their daily life so they compensate by claiming greatness online. They want to stand out and be noticed, but they lack the stones to do it for real. So they do it in fantasy. The flaw in their plan is always the same, however. They are emotionally invested from the very start, and thus their arguments tend to be more personal than logical.

That was my analysis as well. I'm still not sure whether he realises it, however.

If Southwind had simply admitted to his mistakes or "poor choice of words" or whatnot, nobody here would've laughed at him. But he seems to think that doing so would be a sign of weakness.
 
You know, instead of dodging the question, as you are obviously doing, would you mind telling us if you think the nude child in the first Superman movie was pornographic ? It clearly wasn't a documentary.
I don't recall watching that movie. Do you think it's plausible from the way the image was presented that there was an intention to sexually arouse the audience? If so, I'll try to source the footage, if it means that much to you. If not, then I'm pretty sure I'd agree with you.
 
I don't recall watching that movie. Do you think it's plausible from the way the image was presented that there was an intention to sexually arouse the audience? If so, I'll try to source the footage, if it means that much to you. If not, then I'm pretty sure I'd agree with you.

There was clearly no intent to arouse. However you said that it was always pornographic if it wasn't a documentary. Or at least it's the only exception you provided.

You seem to be switching criteria with every post. Perhaps it would be wise to give us a complete definition of porn and art, with all their criteria and exceptions, so we can finally understand where you stand.
 
What ? Why are you dodging AGAIN ? YOU are the one who brought up that word. Now you're asking ME to define it ? No, just answer the question.
I'm not dodging and it's telling that you repeatedly assert that I am. You've used the word "legitimate" in relation to art in a very different context from that in which I used the word "legitimacy" in relation to porn. You need to clarify what you mean by it, therefore, because, unlike the meaning of my usage, the meaning of your's is far from apparent.
 
There was clearly no intent to arouse. However you said that it was always pornographic if it wasn't a documentary. Or at least it's the only exception you provided.

You seem to be switching criteria with every post. Perhaps it would be wise to give us a complete definition of porn and art, with all their criteria and exceptions, so we can finally understand where you stand.
Wrong. I've been absolutely unequivocal throughout both this thread and the previous "What's wrong with porn?" thread that an essential criterion of "porn" is that it must have the intention to sexually arouse. If you can show that I haven't I'll gift you the fortune that I won yesterday by correctly predicting JFrankA's response to one of my posts.
 
I'm not dodging and it's telling that you repeatedly assert that I am. You've used the word "legitimate" in relation to art in a very different context from that in which I used the word "legitimacy" in relation to porn. You need to clarify what you mean by it, therefore, because, unlike the meaning of my usage, the meaning of your's is far from apparent.

Let me clarify, then. You said that calling pictures of nude children art would be legitimizing child pornography. Since "art" is not necessarily "right" or "legal", I'm trying to understand what you meant. That's why I asked if you thought art was always legitimate.

Actually it's colloquial, and not a question, rhetorical or otherwise. The sentence requires neither commas nor a question mark for its correct grammatical structure. It might, arguably, benefit from an exclamation mark (at the end, in case you're wondering), but that depends on whether it's exclaimed or a mere utterance.

Wow. Clear, concise, to the point, and no insults! Thanks!

Wrong. I've been absolutely unequivocal throughout both this thread and the previous "What's wrong with porn?" thread that an essential criterion of "porn" is that it must have the intention to sexually arouse.

Mostly, but not always. I'm refering to this post:

Are you saying that nudity in art can only be sexual?

Yes, pretty much.

So, even without any intent to arouse, ANY nudity in art (except the aforementionned documentaries) is sexual, and therefore (I assume) has an intent to arouse and is therefore porn.

Or perhaps it was a "poor choice of words" on your part ?
 
Hang on a second, let's get something straight here. You wrote this:

... in support of your position. But then you essentially admit that it's irrelevant with this:

JJM pointed out the flaw in this argument with this:

... which you seemed to acknowledge:

So, please, for the record, acknowledge that citing an isolated exception that bucks a trend does not invalidate the trend, AND THEN PLEASE STOP DOING IT!

No.

Because I'm being realistic. Having the government decide that since the "potential risk" outweighs the knowledge and trust of adults in how to bring up their children, then the government would have to ban everything.

For example: you yourself admitted to walking around nude in front of your children. You yourself saw admitted that they were uncomfortable. Now because of that one occurrence, should the government now declare that no parents should be nude in their own house because of the "potential risk" of harm it may cause?

Another example: If a child plays a sport and fails at scoring the winning goal, and consequently gets ridiculed by his friends and maybe some adults, and gets so depressed over it that he starts failing in school, etc, by your logic, there is a evidence of a "potential risk" of harm to the child and therefore playing sports should be banned.

Or if the child gets physically injured so that that child cannot use her or his legs, or some other life-changing injury, then there is another example of "potential risk" of harm and by your logic the government should step in and ban the sport without any regard of the child's desire to play or any regard to the parent's knowledge of the child to being able to handle it.

So, no, I will not. My way idea of trusting the parents may not be most fool-proof way, but it's the best and the most realistic.

I know exactly what you're saying, but parents DO NOT necessarily know their kids very well from a psychological perspective. Jeez, one of my sons is 13 and if you gave me a penny for his thoughts, especially those that are bothering him, I'd be a rich man!

Yet you know other people's children will enough to ban nude modeling for everyone.

I can't recall whether you've disclosed whether you're a parent or not, but if you are and you think you "know" your kid(s) well enough to decide for them whether posing nude for art's sake is good or bad for them you are woefully misguided.

Do you see your own statement? You don't even recall if I am a parent or not, and even with that, you know for a fact that if I am a parent or not, my children wouldn't like posing nude.

Do you realize how daft that sounds?

The point is if you don't know the thoughts of your own children, how the hell do you know the personalities of children you don't know?

Would you apply the same rationale when diagnosing a severely sick child, or would you seek expert medical attention? Why would you invariably defer to an expert on matters of physical wellbeing but when it comes to psychological wellbeing default to "I'm saying that it's a parent's final decision and responsibility".

Apples and oranges. You are comparing medical issues to knowing a child's personality. A good parent knows when a child is sick and seeks help from a doctor. A good parent also knows when a child is faking to get out of school for the day.

And if you've ever been to a psychologist, the first thing they do is ask questions to find out the personality of the person they are dealing with. They don't assume that everyone is the same, nor do they assume that a treatment that works for most works for all. And a treatment that doesn't work for everyone may work for this particular patient.

By the way, a medical doctor works like that too: a treatment that works for most does not mean it works for all, and a treatment that doesn't work for everyone may work for this particular patient.

And in both cases, there's "potential risk" of harm.

A parent may not be an expert in psychology nor medicine, but they should be an expert in knowing the personalities of their own children.

For example, you have children. Do all your children enjoy the same things? Is one child comfortable doing a task and another isn't? Does one child like to be alone in their spare time, while the other likes to be out and with friends? Do you force all your children into the same activities that guaranteed to be "potentially risk" free? Do you trust someone else who doesn't know you child at all to instantly know what's best for them better than you do?

You did not.

I did. If you can't understand it's not my problem.

"Figure it out" being the operative words! :rolleyes:

You're right there. Let's see if you can.

So it doesn't necessarily concern erotica or sexual arousal, then. I'm glad we've cleared that up! :rolleyes:

Where in the definition does it say it doesn't necessarily concern sexual arousal?

And where is your definition or is this another dodge?


Very nice art. But again, you made an attempt to dodge the question. You have not answered it. You still haven't as of the post I'm up to now. So let's see if you actually answer the question:

If the movie "Superman" isn't porn and isn't a documentary and isn't art, what is it?
 
Wrong. I've been absolutely unequivocal throughout both this thread and the previous "What's wrong with porn?" thread that an essential criterion of "porn" is that it must have the intention to sexually arouse. If you can show that I haven't I'll gift you the fortune that I won yesterday by correctly predicting JFrankA's response to one of my posts.

:rolleyes: Going for the million dollars again? By the way, you were wrong. But that doesn't matter.

You have also stated, that nudity in any art is sexual except when it comes to documentaries.

(And my mistake. Not only is there a noun definition of the word "sexual" there's an adjective definition too:

sexual adj.
1. Of, relating to, involving, or characteristic of sex, sexuality, the sexes, or the sex organs and their functions.
2. Implying or symbolizing erotic desires or activity. 3. Relating to, produced by, or involving reproduction characterized by the union of male and female gametes.

There's you sexual arousal.)

If all nudity in non-documentaries is sexual, and since there was a nude child in the movie Superman, then, by your criteria, that scene was sexual.

Also, since you say that Superman isn't art nor porn nor a documentary, what is it?
 
Let me clarify, then. You said that calling pictures of nude children art would be legitimizing child pornography. Since "art" is not necessarily "right" or "legal", I'm trying to understand what you meant. That's why I asked if you thought art was always legitimate.
And you still, after all that, have omitted to clarify exactly what you mean by "legitimate". Or by "legitimate" do you simply mean "right" or "legal"?! If so, I'm afraid you'll now have to clarify what you mean by "right" - sorry. As for "legal" ... mmm ... interesting. As you know, I contest that if an image is pornographic then it's not art per se. Now, if it's obscene, say, then not knowing exactly where the law stands, it seems plausible that a work of art could be illegal, unless, of course, it's simply the act of displaying it publicly that's illegal. That seems logical. I doubt that it's illegal to create obscene works of art in the privacy of one's own premises. So I'm inclined to think that no art per se is illegal (remember porn, especially child porn, is not art per se!). Subject to hearing what you mean by "right" I suppose that indicates that I think that all art is "legitimate". Hope that helps. :)

Wow. Clear, concise, to the point, and no insults! Thanks!
A pinch of sarcasm, though, to keep you on your toes!

Mostly, but not always. I'm refering to this post:
So, even without any intent to arouse, ANY nudity in art (except the aforementionned documentaries) is sexual, and therefore (I assume) has an intent to arouse and is therefore porn.
Or perhaps it was a "poor choice of words" on your part ?
Actually it's a poor interpretation, possibly ignorance (again), on your part. Just because something is sexual in nature doesn't mean it's necessarily sexually arousing. I consider "September Morn", for example, "sexual" because it depicts a degree of sexuality (naked girl posing). I don't find it sexually arousing, though, and I don't believe it's intended to be, which is I why I consider it not pornographic. It's still sexual, though.
 
I've done a rather crude culling of more off-topic and personalising posts and dumped them to AAH. (I know there are probably some OK posts in the ones I've dumped.)
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
And you still, after all that, have omitted to clarify exactly what you mean by "legitimate".

:rolleyes: We were talking about YOUR words, remember ?

So I'm inclined to think that no art per se is illegal (remember porn, especially child porn, is not art per se!). Subject to hearing what you mean by "right" I suppose that indicates that I think that all art is "legitimate".

That's odd. I would've thought that art that breaks the law is illegal, and that some art can be seen as immoral. So I still don't understand why you think branding something as art legitimizes that thing.

Actually it's a poor interpretation, possibly ignorance (again), on your part. Just because something is sexual in nature doesn't mean it's necessarily sexually arousing. I consider "September Morn", for example, "sexual" because it depicts a degree of sexuality (naked girl posing). I don't find it sexually arousing, though, and I don't believe it's intended to be, which is I why I consider it not pornographic. It's still sexual, though.

So "sexual" doesn't necessarily have an intent to arouse ? This is getting very complicated. We're still no closer to understanding exactly what your thoughts are on this, because they seem to change with every post.
 
So pictures of nudists are pornographic?
They are very useful for the same purpose, whatever the practical use of porn is. But yes there is a technical difference between them, a clear lexicographical difference has been defined between the two. What the difference changes in the world, and in whose world, is a bit unclear. Probably something in some people's world.

Pictures of nude prisoners in WW2 concentration camps are pornographic ?
If taken out of context, they could be nudistic, and be useful for the same purpose whatever porn is useful for. Or then the end user must either accept, sadistically enjoy, or be retarded enough not to understand the context of the photos.
 
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They are very useful for the same purpose, whatever the practical use of porn is. But yes there is a technical difference between them, a clear lexicographical difference has been defined between the two. What the difference changes in the world, and in whose world, is a bit unclear. Probably something in some people's world.


If taken out of context, they could be nudistic, and be useful for the same purpose whatever porn is useful for. Or then the end user must either accept, sadistically enjoy, or be retarded enough not to understand the context of the photos.

But either way, it's a matter of interpretation, not intent.
 
And you still, after all that, have omitted to clarify exactly what you mean by "legitimate". Or by "legitimate" do you simply mean "right" or "legal"?! If so, I'm afraid you'll now have to clarify what you mean by "right" - sorry. As for "legal" ... mmm ... interesting. As you know, I contest that if an image is pornographic then it's not art per se. Now, if it's obscene, say, then not knowing exactly where the law stands, it seems plausible that a work of art could be illegal, unless, of course, it's simply the act of displaying it publicly that's illegal. That seems logical. I doubt that it's illegal to create obscene works of art in the privacy of one's own premises. So I'm inclined to think that no art per se is illegal (remember porn, especially child porn, is not art per se!). Subject to hearing what you mean by "right" I suppose that indicates that I think that all art is "legitimate". Hope that helps. :)
Bolding mine.

The problem is that nobody here agrees with this claim, so you can't really use it to base further claims. You have provided an acceptable definition of pornography, sure, but you still have not provided a universally accepted definition of art that excludes pornographic material. If all you have to back that claim is the fact that you think porn isn't art, then I'm sorry, but you simply don't share the common opinion about what the word "art" means - or more succinctly put, you don't know what the word means. And that is what this whole discussion boils down to.


Actually it's a poor interpretation, possibly ignorance (again), on your part. Just because something is sexual in nature doesn't mean it's necessarily sexually arousing. I consider "September Morn", for example, "sexual" because it depicts a degree of sexuality (naked girl posing). I don't find it sexually arousing, though, and I don't believe it's intended to be, which is I why I consider it not pornographic. It's still sexual, though.

So do you still maintain that all sexual art is harmful to it's (underage) models, or at least likely enough to be that it should be banned?

Also, why exactly is a naked girl more sexual than a clothed one? The girl in September Morn does not appear seductive or sensual, she appears timid and cold. Her nakedness only adds to her vulnerability. On the other hand, in the famous Girl With a Pear Earring, the woman is fully clothed, but many believe her expression is, amongst other things, intensely sexually charged.

Admittedly, my interpretations of these works are hardly definitive. But my point is that "sexuality" is a concept that goes far beyond the fact of whether the models are clothed or not.
 
If all you have to back that claim is the fact that you think porn isn't art, then I'm sorry, but you simply don't share the common opinion about what the word "art" means - or more succinctly put, you don't know what the word means. And that is what this whole discussion boils down to.

He didn't say that porn isn't art, but rather that porn isn't inherently art. Put another way, porn may be art by not by definition alone. The flaw in his argument, however, is the assumption that anybody here disagrees with that point. I haven't seen that.
 
Girl With a Pear Earring
I saw that one in Amsterdam last year, and even got a small poster of her.

BTW: were there not a huge tread somewhere about whether someone's pictures of naked children were art or not?
I mean, it is not something you can just define and expect other to agree with.
 
He didn't say that porn isn't art, but rather that porn isn't inherently art. Put another way, porn may be art by not by definition alone. The flaw in his argument, however, is the assumption that anybody here disagrees with that point. I haven't seen that.

Well, actually I did state a few post back that in my opinion all porn is inherently art, since I consider the defining characteristic of art to be the goal of rousing a reaction in the viewer.

Of course, that isn't a universally accepted view. But even if we take the tighter meaning "works of beauty, especially visual ones", then at least a reasonable amount of porn would still be inherently art.

Or do you mean to say his argument is "porn can be art, but if it can't be only art if it's also porn"? I suppose even I couldn't disagree with that, but it would be a totally meaningless statement.

I think the main issue here is that despite refusing to admit it, Southwind believes that something being "art" does grant it legitimacy.
 
Mirrorglass said:
Girl With a Pear Earring

Oh man, did I really post that? :D I guess my English isn't all that great either..

I saw that one in Amsterdam last year, and even got a small poster of her.

BTW: were there not a huge tread somewhere about whether someone's pictures of naked children were art or not?
I mean, it is not something you can just define and expect other to agree with.

You have a point. It is a pretty vague term at best, so I guess we won't get to consensus.

I think the real object of debate here is whether or not any and all nude modelling of children should be illegal. The whole thing about art is just confounding the issue.
 

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