Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Chris_Halkides]

Krane and Thompson

Can you tell me exactly what your point is?

Fulcanelli asked me to support my statement that release of fsa files is nearly universal. I previously quoted Dan Krane who used equivalent words, upthread; now I have quoted William Thompson. who made a similar point. Both are DNA internationally known experts who testified in this case, which originated in Australia.

 

[stilicho]

Fulcanelli asked me to support my statement that release of fsa files is nearly universal. I previously quoted Dan Krane who used equivalent words, upthread; now I have quoted William Thompson. who made a similar point. Both are DNA internationally known experts who testified in this case, which originated in Australia.

Then why is your example so completely and obviously unrelated to the release of *.xyz files?

I actually spend the time, occasionally, to follow your links and read behind the mysteries of false accusations, corruption, incompetence, and so on. The issue I have with your posting them here is that they are ultimately irrelevant to the case we're talking about.

The problems with the DNA in that case weren't discovered through some exciting new technology. They were discovered by rather pedestrian means. The suspect was hundreds of kilometres away.

None of that particular link bears any resemblance to your allegations against the Italian crime lab.

Here's what I want you to do. Find something similar and post it. It must include multiple individuals. The laboratory must correctly identify forty per cent of the individuals in the same tests and be wrong the rest of the time. You can adjust that to fifty-fifty if you'd like.

Posting random "sciency" things isn't acceptable. Read your links and understand how they correlate to the evidence supplied in the investigation of Meredith's murder. If they don't correlate or have only marginal relevance then explain that while you post them. Don't make people slog through them, wasting their time, only to find they have nothing in common with the point you're trying to make.

 

[lane99]

Kelly Ellard was only fifteen years old when she and a group of youths beat, tortured, and finally drowned Reena Virk, another young girl...

Probably best that you educate yourself a bit about these cases before you cite them. Otherwise you're going to look rather ridiculous to anyone who actually knows them. The Renna Virk case, for example, happened quite near where I lived at the time.

Indeed, Kelly Ellard is exactly the type of person who would kill someone. She's been a violent troublemaker with a vicious temper since her childhood. And has continued with her streak of violence in the ensuing years since she and the other troubled deliquents attacked and murdered Reena Virk.

If that's the best you can do, I almost feel sorry for you. No sensible person would cite these two females as anything other than essentially polar opposites in just about every way.

Kelly Ellard and Amanda Knox are both females, though. I'll give you that. So I can't say you're batting zero.

 

[Dan O.]

In stilicho's world, contamination in the lab can only occur if the suspect is hundreds of kilometers away and is somehow prevented when the suspect lives in the same town and visits the house where the crime occurred.

 

[Agatha]

That is not what stilicho is saying.

 

[tsig]

In stilicho's world, contamination in the lab can only occur if the suspect is hundreds of kilometers away and is somehow prevented when the suspect lives in the same town and visits the house where the crime occurred.

In your world DNA from murdered girls randomly waft through labs.

 

[stilicho]

In stilicho's world, contamination in the lab can only occur if the suspect is hundreds of kilometers away and is somehow prevented when the suspect lives in the same town and visits the house where the crime occurred.

Where did you get the idea I thought that?

Each of the cases I've bothered to look up from halides1's links has been completely different than the allegations against Stefanoni and her crime lab.

Not only that, but that Australian case was cited as an example of contamination being discovered by the release of certain files. It wasn't. It was discovered because the suspect lived hundreds of kilometres from the crimescene. It was confirmed when it was revealed that the suspect had been a victim of a crime and that items of hers were being tested at the same time.

When are we going to read an example that resembles the Perugia murder case?

 

[Kermit]

In stilicho's world, contamination in the lab can only occur if the suspect is hundreds of kilometers away and is somehow prevented when the suspect lives in the same town and visits the house where the crime occurred.

In your world DNA from murdered girls randomly waft through labs.

.
...... and mutant, sticky microscopic bits of crushed, ageing dandruff (mutant because they are supercharged with high quality, measureable, full profile DNA) swirl around in house draughts, on the lookout for undergarments.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Fulcanelli asked me to support my statement that release of fsa files is nearly universal. I previously quoted Dan Krane who used equivalent words, upthread; now I have quoted William Thompson. who made a similar point. Both are DNA internationally known experts who testified in this case, which originated in Australia.

And you supported it with a statement where a guy said it was his normal practice to ASK the lab for the .fsa files. They didn't just send them to him out of the blue or stick them up on a public notice board!

And multiple times you have been asked here, has Johnson and her team asked either the Italian defence, the prosecution or the Rome lab for these files. Or if the defence asked for them and to this day have been refused. And multiple times, you've failed to answer.

Therefore, until you can answer those questions, your arguments are completely pointless.

 

[Fuji]

Why in the world would anyone bullsh*t the police in a murder investigation?

I apologize for going back several pages to bring up this quote, but I am new to the JREF forums and by the time my account was activated, the conversation had moved on. However, as an amateur true crime buff, and one who has followed this case with interest since 2007 (and who has read or skimmed the entirety of this thread over several weeks before joining), I feel obliged to contribute my own observations on this case.

The question Jungle Jim posed above is one which has also left me perplexed. In fact, it was one of the first things to make me suspicious of AK and RS. Part of this is related to my own personal experience.

Fifteen years ago, a place at which I was employed was burgled, with the thief(s) making off with a safe containing a susbstantial amount of money. Along with all the other employees, I was requested (NOT compelled) to come in to the Police Department and submit to an interrogation while hooked up to a polygraph machine. As I had nothing to hide, not being the one who took the safe, I figured "why not?", as I had naively assumed that by cooperating they could quickly eliminate me as a suspect and move on with their investigation.

Now obviously, this does not directly parallel the Kercher case, as mine was not a murder investigation. However, unlike AK and RS, I did not have a squeaky clean police record - in fact, at the time I was on probation for an ealier misdemeanor conviction (receipt of stolen property). Furthermore, unlike AK and RS, I was polygraphed at the time. While unlike AK and RS, I would not be facing 15-20 years behind bars if found guilty, with my probationary status and the nature of the offense I was accused of, I would still be facing the very real possibilty of several years in a Texas state prison.

Why am I telling you all this? Well, much like the Perugia police are accused of in the Kercher case, the police officers in my case lied to me and exerted extreme intimidation in an attempt to elicit a confession. They claimed that they "knew I did it" and that the polygraph told them so. My interrogation lasted for appoximately two and a half hours, and was one of the most harrowing and traumatic experiences of my life. However, at no point did I ever consider falsely blaming another (or confessing myself to a crime I didn't do). No matter how many times they said "you did it", I always stuck to my guns because I was telling the truth.

I am aware of the cases others such as halides1 have mentioned involving the psychology of false confessions. However, I still come back to my own experience and wonder why anyone would intentionally mislead a police investigation if they were in fact truly innocent. In the Kercher case, it strains credulity to believe that both AK and RS were intimidated into giving false statements (or if not false, statements which were later retracted or significantly modified, and are in many respects mutually exclusive). Furthermore, AK allowed her false implication of Patrick to stand uncorrected for two weeks, when at any time she could have set the record straight. These are, in my opinion, not the actions of an innocent party.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

repeating a falsehood does not make it true

And you supported it with a statement where a guy said it was his normal practice to ASK the lab for the .fsa files. They didn't just send them to him out of the blue or stick them up on a public notice board!

And multiple times you have been asked here, has Johnson and her team asked either the Italian defence, the prosecution or the Rome lab for these files. Or if the defence asked for them and to this day have been refused. And multiple times, you've failed to answer.

Therefore, until you can answer those questions, your arguments are completely pointless.

Fulcanelli,

Each time you repeat your false statement, I have no choice but to correct it. Multiple times I have said that Chris Mellas confirmed that the defense asked for fsa files and other information and they were repeatedly denied. Expert witness Sara Gino also made it clear in the September news story I cited that the dates of the testing were not released. Because the dates would have been part of the fsa files, we are forced to conclude that the files were not released.

DNA forensic expert professor Dan Krane said, “The biggest concern that I personally have regarding this case is the refusal of the prosecution to provide the defense with a copy of the electronic data that underlies the DNA test results -- that is virtually unheard of world-wide today and it would be especially important to review that data in a case such as this which seems to involve such low level samples.”

@stilicho: I will try to write an answer to your question this weekend.

Chris

 

[shuttlt]

Welcome Fuji!

Why am I telling you all this? Well, much like the Perugia police are accused of in the Kercher case, the police officers in my case lied to me and exerted extreme intimidation in an attempt to elicit a confession. They claimed that they "knew I did it" and that the polygraph told them so. My interrogation lasted for appoximately two and a half hours, and was one of the most harrowing and traumatic experiences of my life. However, at no point did I ever consider falsely blaming another (or confessing myself to a crime I didn't do). No matter how many times they said "you did it", I always stuck to my guns because I was telling the truth.

It's not just the fact that, doubtless under pressure, there were false accusations. Supposedly Amanda became so confused that she actually did (and does?) remember Patrick murdering Meredith, although she quickly decided those memories were false.

Raffaele meanwhile announced that his and Amanda's original alibi was "a load of ********" and reaffirmed this 6 months later in front of a judge when he complained that people were counting the evidence against Amanda as evidence against him because they falsely assumed she had been with him all night (which had been his original alibi).

Did both of them, in same kind of timescale that you endured, have false memories induced in them that endured for months, or years?

 

[shuttlt]

Each time you repeat your false statement, I have no choice but to correct it. Multiple times I have said that Chris Mellas confirmed that the defense asked for fsa files and other information and they were repeatedly denied.

Chris, the victims family isn't the best source is it? This is the same Chris Mellas who said that the LCN profile matched half of Italy, was he lying, being lied to,...?

Expert witness Sara Gino also made it clear in the September news story I cited that the dates of the testing were not released. Because the dates would have been part of the fsa files, we are forced to conclude that the files were not released.

I'm going to go back and reread this. Quotes from the expert witnesses are definately the way to go.

DNA forensic expert professor Dan Krane said, “The biggest concern that I personally have regarding this case is the refusal of the prosecution to provide the defense with a copy of the electronic data that underlies the DNA test results -- that is virtually unheard of world-wide today and it would be especially important to review that data in a case such as this which seems to involve such low level samples.”

If anybody is refusing at this point it is the court, since the prosecution lack the power. Perhaps they were asked for it, perhaps they weren't. If they were and didn't hand it over then thats either incompitent or willfully obstructive, but then we have to believe that the defence just sat around for months optimistically checking the mail every morning, as the case began, as Steffanoni testified, as their own experts testified, hoping the fsa files would arrive. Surely the defence could have gotten this information if they wanted it?

I'd be very curious for the defence, or the family to release their correspondence with the lab requesting this, or at least make it clear when they asked for what from whome. Of course they no more have to make this stuff public that the prosecution, or the lab do. I think it might help to persuade people, but it's their choice.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Each time you repeat your false statement, I have no choice but to correct it. Multiple times I have said that Chris Mellas confirmed that the defense asked for fsa files and other information and they were repeatedly denied. Expert witness Sara Gino also made it clear in the September news story I cited that the dates of the testing were not released. Because the dates would have been part of the fsa files, we are forced to conclude that the files were not released.

And each time I have told you that Chris Mellas has zero credibility (for VERY good reason) as a source.

I also requested you provide your source for the defence making this complaint to the judge in COURT and his response, you've failed to do so.

I also missed the part where you provided Prosessor Krane's statement that he requested the files from the prosecution or the lab and was refused them. You have also failed to show on what he bases his evidence on his claim that the defence were refused them...what is his source for that, Chris Mellas and Mark Waerbury, Elizabeth Johnson et al? Has Krane actually ever contacted Amanda's lawyers in Italy? He doesn't say...so, I'd like to know.

In short, none of what you've provided is evidence or proof.

 

[Kestrel]

Why am I telling you all this? Well, much like the Perugia police are accused of in the Kercher case, the police officers in my case lied to me and exerted extreme intimidation in an attempt to elicit a confession. They claimed that they "knew I did it" and that the polygraph told them so. My interrogation lasted for appoximately two and a half hours, and was one of the most harrowing and traumatic experiences of my life. However, at no point did I ever consider falsely blaming another (or confessing myself to a crime I didn't do). No matter how many times they said "you did it", I always stuck to my guns because I was telling the truth.

Welcome to JREF.

Your outlasting an interrogation isn't proof that nobody caves in. It's a bit like saying you didn't get knocked out in a boxing match, therefore it can't happen to anyone else.

As bad as it was for you, the conditions in Perugia could have been worse. Was your interrogation being recorded? Were there just one or two officers in the room, or several that were leaning on you and yelling at the same time? Did they ever physically hit you?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Expert witness Sara Gino also made it clear in the September news story I cited that the dates of the testing were not released.

Excuse me? What utter rubbish! How can the dates of the tests not have been released when the defence experts were invited to attend when the tests were carried out? They knew damn well when the tests were being carried out and were given the dates so they could be there. They opted not to go, but all the same they had the dates.

 

[shuttlt]

In testifying for Knox, expert Sarah Gino, who has appeared in court before, called out the prosecution for providing amplified DNA samples with the dates missing.

These dates are important, Gino said, "because they would tell us what samples were tested together on the same day, which might indicate if some of them could have been contaminated."

She also said dating the procedure for each sample was important to ensure that the amplification did not happen twice by mistake. She called the amplification of DNA the "key moment" in DNA analysis.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/defense-expert-disputes-dna-evidence-amanda-knox-trial/story?id=8680234

I've got to agree that this strongly indicates to me that the defence really don't have access to all the raw data. Whether, when and in what terms they asked for it is clearly outside the scope of Sarah Gino's comments. Presumably it would be possible for the defence to infer when the samples were tested, but perhaps that it another issue.

 

[Fuji]

Welcome to JREF.

Your outlasting an interrogation isn't proof that nobody caves in. It's a bit like saying you didn't get knocked out in a boxing match, therefore it can't happen to anyone else.

Thank you for the welcome.

I fully understand that my experience is exactly that - mine alone. I make no claims that it is necessarily representative of all those questioned by police all over the world.

Like everyone else here on the forum, I was not in the courtroom and did not see what Micheli et al. saw presented as evidence. However, given my own personal experience with police interrogations (and arrests, and detentions, etc. - but that is food for another thread ), for me the nature of the statements given by AK and RS immediately pinged my ********-detector.

If you do not mind me asking - have you ever been arrested, detained, interrogated, and/or polygraphed?

As bad as it was for you, the conditions in Perugia could have been worse. Was your interrogation being recorded? Were there just one or two officers in the room, or several that were leaning on you and yelling at the same time? Did they ever physically hit you?

Of course, conditions in my case or in Perugia could have been much worse. I am well aware of the nature of the Stalinist purges and show trials of the 1920s and 1930s, where countless individuals were physically tortured to produce false confessions and implicatons of others. But I do not believe that conditions in Perugia even remotely approached this level of coercion.

In my case, there were two officers involved, and I was not physically touched at all. However, as others have pointed out, in Amanda's own words at trial, her statements were not given under duress, either, so I'm not sure where this line of reasoning leads us.

 

[Fuji]

Welcome Fuji!
<snip>
Did both of them, in same kind of timescale that you endured, have false memories induced in them that endured for months, or years?

Thank you for the welcome.

Yes, I find this notion of "false memories" also quite suspect, to put it mildly. Amanda's memory is excellent except for the crucial night of 1 Nov 2007.

I also do not accept that she cannot remember because she was too intoxicated on cannabis. In my younger days, I also partook of several illegal drugs, particularly and extensively in the case of cannabis. The notion that one can't even remember if they were present at a brutal murder scene or not because they were stoned is ludicrous to me and I'm sure most anyone else with any experience smoking cannabis.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Welcome to JREF.

Your outlasting an interrogation isn't proof that nobody caves in. It's a bit like saying you didn't get knocked out in a boxing match, therefore it can't happen to anyone else.

As bad as it was for you, the conditions in Perugia could have been worse. Was your interrogation being recorded? Were there just one or two officers in the room, or several that were leaning on you and yelling at the same time? Did they ever physically hit you?

Funny how you always forget and completely ignore Raffaele's interrogation when you make these claims. What was 'his' excuse again, you know, when he dropped Amanda's alibi?

And let us also remind you once again, Amanda didn't confess, she instead accused someone else. And also let me remind you, even Amanda only claimed she was 'tapped' on the head, not beaten or caused pain and while we're being reminded of things, I'll also remind you her claims were fully investigated and found to be false.

I would also point out the hypocrisy in your argument...you lambast that poster for trying to state a universal truth on one side, when you are trying to argue one on the opposite side: In other cases, some people have been pressured into stating things that were not true, therefore they are proof that that's what happened in 'this' case.

You are throwing stones in a glass house.

Tell me Kestrel, have you even considered for one moment, she lied because she was bloody guilty? Please, justify to us why you are SO ademant without willingness to budge the slightest inch that she is innocent? What makes you SO damned certain?

Personally, I think it's just because you like to disagree with everyone and love an argument.