"Intelligence is Self Teaching" A paranormal experience into A.I and Intelligence.

No. It's in the minds of certain philosophers, just as it's in the minds of certain scientists. They believe there is a hard problem...because they believe there is a persisting self. The one belief leads to the other. When this belief is examined thoroughly, or when materialist philosophy is used to understand self, then the hard problem ceases to be.
Right.

It's like this:

Chalmers et. al.: It is impossible to explain consciousness on a material basis.
Dennett et. al.: Emergent behaviour of self-referential systems explains all observed behaviours associated with consciousness.
Chalmers: But it can't explain qualia.
Dennett: There is no reason to think that qualia exist.
Chalmers: The existence of qualia is self-evident.
Dennett: The existence of qualia is impossible under materialism.
Chalmers: The existence of qualia is self-evident. Since qualia are necessary for consciousness, it is impossible to explain consciousness on a material basis.
Dennett: There is no reason to think that... Hello, are you actually listening?
Chalmers: It is impossible to explain consciousness on a material basis.
Dennett: <facepalm>
 
yet every moment we are experiencing. I accept it does not exist in a material sense and there is no self in the brain. There is only processing in the brain, but there is only experiencing in my being that so far is not accounted for in neuro science if I have interpreted you correctly.



That 'belief' you mention can be transcended in experience, beyond a self. That sort of experience is possible, have had plenty.

My point here is NOT that a self exists, but that 'experience' exist in a form that is transcendent of a physical process, and physical science simply cannot address this.

The universe does not owe us a rational explanation for any phenomenon. The fact that experience is so elusive is consistent with many other phenomenon in the universe. Dark Matter is an extraordinary metaphor in this regard. 96% of the universe is not there! How's that for perplexing? Consciousness does not have to be any more clear than this either. We are not owed a rational explanation just because we have a cool thing called science. Physical science I believe has it's limitations, and many philosophical interpretations of physical science do not seem very comfortable with that fact.
Holy shmokes I wondered if this thread would turn into a "does consciousness exist outside of the materialistic universe" thread. Did BF procure the fancies of PixyMisa yet? ;)

BF ---- are you saying, therefore, that
* what exists in reality has a scientific explanation
* what exists outside of reality has a philosophical explanation

And that you are a mix of both reality and unreality?
?
 
What IS it with all these relentless consciousness threads???

I came up with a few theories.

1.) Some people are not sure if they themselves are actually conscious, and they're trying to find out.
2.) Maybe they're not sure if everyone ELSE is conscious.
3.) They're zombies planning an attempt to take over the world, and they're trying to gauge the general level of consciousness first.

There must be something that makes these threads so attractive. Anyway, I can't stand Dennett OR Chalmers. Between the Santa Claus-when-Easter-rolls-around beard and the hippie-who-slept-on-the-beach-one-too-many-times hair, both of them are in severe need of makeovers, for one thing. But more to the point, David Chalmers is an idiot. My cat could win a debate with him. So what if Dennett can do it? Does this actually prove anything? I just feel that he's really lowered his bar for debate by yapping away about things that are not meaningful with morons, and it's not a pretty thing to see. He's capable of reflective, thoughtful writing (as in Freedom Evolves, and he can really do better than the David Chalmer silliness.
 
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I'm finding contradictions here Nick.

You both wrote and implied:
No. [The hard problem does not exist at all]

and then:
It's [The Hard Problem] in the minds of certain philosophers, just as it's in the minds of certain scientists.

I account for that contradiction in my model. Did you not consider that what I said was already implied by your own words?

It seems to me that in trying to avoid the contradiction, your actually allowing for it. All dualistic thinking will eventually make this contradiction.
 
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Right.

It's like this:

Chalmers et. al.: It is impossible to explain consciousness on a material basis.
Dennett et. al.: Emergent behaviour of self-referential systems explains all observed behaviours associated with consciousness.
Chalmers: But it can't explain qualia.
Dennett: There is no reason to think that qualia exist.
Chalmers: The existence of qualia is self-evident.
Dennett: The existence of qualia is impossible under materialism.
Chalmers: The existence of qualia is self-evident. Since qualia are necessary for consciousness, it is impossible to explain consciousness on a material basis.
Dennett: There is no reason to think that... Hello, are you actually listening?
Chalmers: It is impossible to explain consciousness on a material basis.
Dennett: <facepalm>

They both get a face palm because they are trying to force the model into a dualistic one, it is predictable both would come to their conclusions. or maybe I should say you get a facepalm because you framed their arguments that way? I say facepalm all around.

true existence = material
false existence = personal
I am = both material and personal. I am a transcendent.
 
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A consciousness thread with an OP who believes that "magic forest fairies did it" is a valid hypothesis, yeah.

Now your communication is both delusional and deceptive.

I provided a complete summary of my position. If I am mistaken, incomplete, or contradictory, it should be possible for you to point it out with brevity - not bullsh*t.
 
What IS it with all these relentless consciousness threads???
There must be something that makes these threads so attractive.

Hi Maia, what makes them so attractive is the following. It's quite a cocktail :)

1.) Mystery and the innate human behavior to avoid confronting it.
2.) The conflict of idea which drives our behavior to attack ideas (or the people we confuse as ideas) we disagree with.

Since human being is a transcendent and a mystery, this conflict is self repeating until there is an increase in intelligence.
 
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true existence = material
false existence = personal
I am = both material and personal. I am a transcendent
Hey cute kid btw! :)

Can I take a crack at what you're saying here?

true existence = objective
false existence = superposition
I am = subjective within probability limits

To transcend, imo, would place you outside the realm of probability and into superposition. In other words, you would be everywhere at once. In my opinion, this would make you no different than not existing at all. Hence, why I called it "false existence". It's impossible to say, "I'm everywhere all at once," because that would mean you're infinite or nowhere.

Now, things that "are" exist objectively. The chair exists. My body exists, etc and so forth. Certain aspects of those things exist on probabilities, but on the macro level, they exist objectively. They exist without my being aware of them at all.

The part of you that says, "I am", or consciousness, exists on a range of probabilities, within limits. You cannot be everywhere at once, for example. You can only imagine so much. You can only recall so much. You can only experience so much. When you die, regardless of your belief in an afterlife or not .... your body will still remain. It will decompose into "something else", but it will still "be". It's objective. Your consciousness will not. It will cease to be in it's present form. Take a ball bat to your head and notice the same effect to certain degrees. So the phenomenon of consciousness will not remain, although the mechanisms for it will remain and begin to decay ... like a computer with no power source that begins to rust and wear down. Thus, your "consciousness" exists with the range of probabilities that your brain allows. Your imagination and ability to experience this consciousness is also within that range. Let someone take a ball bat to your head while on ayahuasca and you will notice the experience change :)

But ... it is still within your head. Just because there is a range of "play" there, doesn't mean you're actually experiencing something outside of the head. It's a subjective experience limited by the confines of the objective brain matter, so it experiences probabilities, not actualities. It's this lack of being able to experience an actuality that gives the illusion we are "more than we are", because our conscious perception is limited. Thus, we are limited. We cannot reach that "actuality" with our consciousness. We can never reach that state of "real" because our brain is always processing probabilities based on actualities. Our "awareness" is therefore only aware of the probabilities, not the actualities. Note, this is different from understanding an actuality. Understanding comes retrospectively. We understand something, once the actuality has been processed and we can view the probabilities and identify which ones are "real" and which ones aren't "real". Thus, we can still understand physical laws and mathematical concepts and objective information. But this is because we understand it after the fact. Before the fact, it's still probabilities to our conscious awareness.

:)

ETA: sorry if I'm being confusing with word salad. What I'm trying to say is, that our consciousness is aware of probabilities of things, which are limited. We are not consciously aware of what is actually taking place around us. For this reason, I think the illusion between what is real and what isn't real can become blurred, because we are NEVER really viewing the "real". We are limited. Thus, we come to understand objective information through reinforcement. The chair is always a chair. Society tells us that we are here and need to behave a certain way. Etc and so forth. Remove some of those elements, and a normally "sane" person begins to experience "unreality". Like a person in solitary confinement.

This is how we come to know objective information and can rely on it ... like with science. We have several people concur on a finding, and reproduce it, etc etc ... and thus we can rely on it. BUT ... we are still relying on that information to be true, with out limited consciousness. Our consciousness is always PERCEIVING probabilies and possibilies but not actuals. Understanding is relying on what we agree to be objective. But it is this constant interacting with our environment and processing it with subjectivity that, at times, makes us feel as though we are experiencing a very real, and unexplainable paranormal experience. It's because we are ALWAYS experiencing something subjective. When you push the "boundaries" of the subjective beyond what most do, it doesn't mean you've transcended something. It means just that ... you've pushed the boundaries of the probabilities that your brain is processing. But this doesn't make them reality. They cannot be trusted as such. To become objective, you need others to reinforce this .... otherwise, you go crazy :) LOL
 
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I don't have much time now, hanging out with my lil boo watching the learning channel. He loves documentaries more than cartoons. He just told his mom and I that he loves us so much. To describe this feeling, he said "I love you 10,000 and 29 and 36 and 19 pounds." How is that for an example of personal reality?

We can explain neurons, but we cannot explain poetry :). There is no poetry in the brain, it's just in the mind, along with all theories about consciousness, true and false.
 
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But more to the point, David Chalmers is an idiot.
Yes.

My cat could win a debate with him.
So could mine - and don't even have a cat.

So what if Dennett can do it? Does this actually prove anything?
Dennett is at least as smart as a nonexistent cat?

He's capable of reflective, thoughtful writing (as in Freedom Evolves, and he can really do better than the David Chalmer silliness.
Think of it as a public service. I don't see your cat volunteering for the job!
 
Holy shmokes I wondered if this thread would turn into a "does consciousness exist outside of the materialistic universe" thread.
BF's raison d'etre seems to be clinging to logically incoherent propositions like a baby langur to its mother, so this was bound to come up eventually.

Did BF procure the fancies of PixyMisa yet?
Let's just assume he hasn't.
 
BF's raison d'etre seems to be clinging to logically incoherent propositions like a baby langur to its mother, so this was bound to come up eventually.

If this is the best thing you can think of to refute what I say - then I can consider this thread, and discussion, complete. I agree what I propose is not coherent to you, but I can assure you that logic, reason, or rational critical thinking has nothing to do with it. You don't have an argument because you only have an irrational and illogical belief system, which I have exposed quite simply, logically, and transparently as false.

My proof is simple, if my proposition is truly logically incoherent like your belief system dictates it must be, then my proposition must produce contradictions.

Since you have not exposed the contradictions, then it may be because they don't exist.

And I don't just mean they only exist in your mind, I mean the contradictions you speak of simply are not anywhere.

Thus not being able to produce the contradiction, you are forced with the explanation that they still must exist anyway, even though you cannot find them, define them, or even come close to arguing them.

I suggest You cannot define them in this discussion because you cannot find them, your dualistic and bivalent logic has been transcended by a higher and elegant logical order than your simply unable to account for.

Pixy mesa, your ideas in conflict with mine are now officially irrelevant and defeated. Therefore, until you produce the contradiction, our conversation is over.

Cheers.
 
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I don't have much time now, hanging out with my lil boo watching the learning channel. He loves documentaries more than cartoons. He just told his mom and I that he loves us so much. To describe this feeling, he said "I love you 10,000 and 29 and 36 and 19 pounds." How is that for an example of personal reality?

That's very sweet. Congratulations, and give lil boo a big hug from blobru. :)

We can explain neurons, but we cannot explain poetry :).

Well, we do have working theories for each; but some ways to go before we can say, "these neurons firing in this sequence imply this poem"; if, in fact, that's how it works.
Don't despair, though. Maybe someday boo will be watching a documentary where they can explain it (or explain it himself). ;)

There is no poetry in the brain, it's just in the mind, along with all theories about consciousness, true and false.

No real argument here (as long as we 'mind' what we mean). Mind is likely a property of the brain -- emerging from certain structures of neurons firing in certain sequences -- so, in a manner of speaking, there's no more poetry in a brain than there is in a book: the poetry emerges from the mental activity of reading (both brain and book vessels for poetry, incomplete systems until some reading, or writing, takes place -- from the emergent pov, anyway). :chores019:
 
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Let's just assume he hasn't.
Yes but when women say no they sometimes mean yes. :)

And on a forum like this, I could not resist saying that, even in jest lol ;) ;) ;) :clap:

Hey Trent, here is a closer explanation to what I am referring to.

http://www.highintelligence.com/OS 012 basic.html
Hmm, I will read into it. Thanx for the link. But I am weary when many words are put in large bold lettering for emphasis. I expect it in media and marketing, but not in written theories on reality LOL.
 
Yes but when women say no they sometimes mean yes. :)

And on a forum like this, I could not resist saying that, even in jest lol ;) ;) ;) :clap:

Hmm, I will read into it. Thanx for the link. But I am weary when many words are put in large bold lettering for emphasis. I expect it in media and marketing, but not in written theories on reality LOL.

ironic, I am in the social media and marketing business :)

Okay, well that link was the easy version, since you requested - Here is one a bit more academic. http://www.highintelligence.com/OS 012intheory.html
 
That's very sweet. Congratulations, and give lil boo a big hug from blobru. :)

hah, just gave him a hug from you. He said 'okay'.


Well, we do have working theories for each; but some ways to go before we can say, "these neurons firing in this sequence imply this poem"; if, in fact, that's how it works.
Don't despair, though. Maybe someday boo will be watching a documentary where they can explain it (or explain it himself). ;)

That's what I'm hoping for. I screwed up and didn't become the scientist phd that I always wanted, so now I'm stuck on internet discussion forums. My son - well I will make sure he won't make the same mistakes I did, that is for sure :)


Cheers blobru!
 

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