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Merged Slaughter the House Bill / Pass without voting

I suspect he misspoke and meant that it would have to pass the House (one way or another) before the Senate would consider reconciliation.

Meanwhile, Kucinich now says he'll vote for the Senate bill, after a chat with Obama on Air Force One. This may be a sign that other House liberals will accept it, and the "deeming" rule would be unnecessary.

ETA: I never thought you were just dreaming this up out of thin air! And I've been carefully hedging my comments (with phrases like "I'm nearly certain") in case it turns out you're right about this. At any rate, it sounds like we're in agreement on how "deeming" works, but not 100% on how reconciliation works. And if I'm wrong, I'll happily fess up! Wouldn't be the first time I've had to eat crow in the JREF forums.

Yeah, I suspect they won't actually try to do the Slaughter rule anyway. It's too much political risk for no real legislative reward, because as we agree the Senate will have to pass a reconciliation bill, and it will have to be reconciled with the House reconciliation bill, before this is over. The deeming rule wouldn't change the substance of the bill in the end, so I'm not sure how it would ever have gotten them any votes they wouldn't otherwise get.

The Senate Dems have sent a letter to the House expressing support for fixes in general, but the devil is in the details. And then there's the Byrd rule to contend with. What counts as a strictly budgetary measure? Will the Senate agree with the Pelosi on that? And the fixes may not make the bill a single penny more expensive. Senator Konrad has mentioned to reporters that many of the fixes being suggested test the limits of the Byrd rule.

And all of this assumes that they find the votes, which is still very much in question, Slaughter rule or no. Lots of fun to look forward to still. Anyway, I have a lot of work to do, so I have to go. It's been an interesting, lively, and most importantly civil exchange. Thanks.
 
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The Senate Parliamentarian has said that Obama must sign before reconciliation can happen. The only thing for him to sign is the original Senate bill, assuming the House passes the original Senate bill. So the Senate has already passed its bill. The House must pass the Senate bill in its current form, then Obama must sign that bill into law. Then the Senate and the House must pass identical reconciliation bills, which the President can then sign. The House's reconciliation bill must be a separate bill from the underlying healthcare bill that the House passes. They can pass it whenever they want, even before the pass the Senate bill, but they still must pass the Senate bill exactly as it is. It can't amend the Senate bill until after Obama signs the Senate bill as it currently exists. The question is whether it counts as a separate bill if it's passed with the same vote. If not, the House hasn't passed the Senate bill and Obama can't sign it, which is a prerequisite for reconciliation. I am quite sure about all of this.

If that's true, then the bill/law will be thrown out. I don't think it's true, though, if for no other reason that some of it is obviously true. The President can't sign a bill unless it is passed by both the House and Senate, identically. That's obvious, and I can't imagine the Supreme Court ruling otherwise.

I suppose the question might be what happens if the House votes on a bill, and the Senate votes on a bill, and the President signs that bill into law, but someone determines that the process by which the Senate voted violated Senate rules? Is the law overturned? I don't know if it has ever been tested, but my guess is that it is not. I think the court would rule that the Senators knew what they were doing, and met the Consitutional requirements.

I also think that various commentators might have lost track of exactly what's going on. There's the budget reconcilliation process, that has been referred to as "reconcilliation", and that has been talked about as a way to bypass the filibuster, but there is also a different process by which two similar, but non-identical bills get "reconciled" between the two houses. I think that can also be used to bypass debate, and I think that's what is being looked at now. I'm not certain about this. I haven't tried to become an expert in Senate procedure.

What it comes down to, for me, is that if everyone does indeed vote on the same bill, and it passes with a majority in both houses, then I'm not at all concerned about how it got there. If, on the other hand, they try to avoid voting on the exact same bill, but have the President sign it, I'm equally confident that the Supreme Court will call foul, and so Congress won't even try it. I guess we'll see.
 
If that's true, then the bill/law will be thrown out. I don't think it's true, though, if for no other reason that some of it is obviously true. The President can't sign a bill unless it is passed by both the House and Senate, identically. That's obvious, and I can't imagine the Supreme Court ruling otherwise.

I suppose the question might be what happens if the House votes on a bill, and the Senate votes on a bill, and the President signs that bill into law, but someone determines that the process by which the Senate voted violated Senate rules? Is the law overturned? I don't know if it has ever been tested, but my guess is that it is not. I think the court would rule that the Senators knew what they were doing, and met the Consitutional requirements.

I also think that various commentators might have lost track of exactly what's going on. There's the budget reconcilliation process, that has been referred to as "reconcilliation", and that has been talked about as a way to bypass the filibuster, but there is also a different process by which two similar, but non-identical bills get "reconciled" between the two houses. I think that can also be used to bypass debate, and I think that's what is being looked at now. I'm not certain about this. I haven't tried to become an expert in Senate procedure.

It is budget reconciliation that is being proposed. That is why the Byrd Rule is being mentioned.

See my update, though. There are conflicting reports on whether the Senate Parliamentarian really said that the bill must be signed before reconciliation. I trust that he knows the difference between conference committees and budget reconciliation. And conference committees never happen after a bill is signed. If he said it, then my analysis you quoted is completely correct. But my analysis depends in part on his having said that. If he didn't say it, then it may be the case simply that the Senate bill must be signed before the reconciliation bill is signed. But even that requires the Senate bill and the Reconciliation bill to be two separate bills.

Even if the Parliamentarian didn't say that the Senate bill has to be signed before the Senate can do budget Reconciliation, I'm still pretty sure the exact same bill has to have at least passed both houses before the Senate can do Reconciliation, because as you pointed out, budget reconciliation is not the same as conference committee, where different House and Senate bills are combined into a compromise bill. So the question is whether whatever passes under the Slaughter rule is really the same bill as the Senate bill. Even if the Huffpo is right about what the Parliamentarian said, the Senate bill and the reconciliation bill still have to be signed separately, even if they can both be passed before either is signed.

So the question will be precisely whether what the House has passed through the Slaughter rule is two separate pieces of legislation. My position is that it would be a single amended bill. The House Democrats would contend that it is two separate bills: the original senate bill, exactly as it passed the Senate, and a separate Reconciliation bill. If it really counts as two bills, then there is no bicameralism problem. But the final product of deeming has always been one bill, with a "deemed" amendment included. The "deeming" merely means that the vote for the bill and the vote for the amendment are the same vote. The product is still a single piece of legislation. It isn't clear whether it is a simple matter of House rules, which the House is allowed to make. The House can pass two things with one vote if they make a rule to do so, but they are pushing the limits when they say that the result of that vote is two separate bills rather than one.

That narrow question would decide the matter. If it is two bills, then they have passed the Senate bill. The Senate could then proceed with budget reconciliation, either before or after the Senate bill is signed, depending on how the Senate Parliamentarian rules. If it is a single bill, then the House has passed something other than the Senate bill. This would preclude budget reconciliation in the Senate, and Senate Republicans could filibuster if the Senate takes up the combined bill+fixes as a single bill. If the product of the Slaughter process is two separate bills, then the House would have passed the same bill the Senate passed, and the Senate could take up reconciliation.

There are two bills, the Senate bill and a reconciliation bill. Both have to be passed by both Houses, and they have to be separate bills, because the former must either be signed before the latter is passed, or signed before the latter is signed, depending on what the Parliamentarian says.

What it comes down to, for me, is that if everyone does indeed vote on the same bill, and it passes with a majority in both houses, then I'm not at all concerned about how it got there. If, on the other hand, they try to avoid voting on the exact same bill, but have the President sign it, I'm equally confident that the Supreme Court will call foul, and so Congress won't even try it. I guess we'll see.

The question will be whether or not the Senate is entitled to proceed without having to invoke cloture. If the product of the House vote is one bill, then they are not. If it is two bills, then they are. If they are not so entitled and they proceed with reconciliation anyway, then the bill will not have been validly enacted, and it will not be law.
 
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It does get a bit weird. I was assuming that it would be one bill, and that one bill would be different from the bill that the Senate passed.

I suppose it could be considered two bills, but if that were the case, then the House and Senate would have passed exactly the same bill, and it could be signed. Oh...yes...the House also passed a separate bill and some legislators and/or the President may have some sort of gentlemen's agreement that they'll make sure the Senate passes that one, too, but that's a lot of trust. It would be saying that the House would trust that the Senate really would ammend their own bill to work in provisions they didn't want in the first place.

All things considered, it strikes me as odd. Nevertheless, it isn't really the crisis that seems to be causing such a tizzy. Nothing is going to get signed unless it gets voted on by a majority of both houses. All the rest is gamesmanship.
 
It does get a bit weird. I was assuming that it would be one bill, and that one bill would be different from the bill that the Senate passed.

I suppose it could be considered two bills, but if that were the case, then the House and Senate would have passed exactly the same bill, and it could be signed. Oh...yes...the House also passed a separate bill and some legislators and/or the President may have some sort of gentlemen's agreement that they'll make sure the Senate passes that one, too, but that's a lot of trust. It would be saying that the House would trust that the Senate really would ammend their own bill to work in provisions they didn't want in the first place.

All things considered, it strikes me as odd. Nevertheless, it isn't really the crisis that seems to be causing such a tizzy. Nothing is going to get signed unless it gets voted on by a majority of both houses. All the rest is gamesmanship.

If it is a single bill, then the Senate has to take it up as new business, and not through budget reconciliation. If it's taken up as new business, the Senate's normal rule of unlimited debate applies, and since the Democrats don't have 60 votes to invoke cloture, the Republicans could filibuster.

If it is two separate bills, then the Senate can take up a new budget reconciliation bill to match the House "fixes" bill. They can use the budget reconciliation rules, which are different than the normal Senate rules, because both Houses would have passed the underlying bill whose costs are to be reduced through budget reconciliation. You can't reduce the costs of a bill that isn't finalized, which is why both houses must have passed an identical bill before reconciliation can happen. Whether or not that bill also has to be signed by the President before reconciliation is the subject of considerable doubt, due to conflicting reports about what the Senate Parliamentarian has said.

If the Senate Reconciliation bill is different from the House fixes bill, then they can go to conference committee for the other kind of reconciliation. This stuff is so much fun!

And what you say about trust is indeed precisely the issue. The House Democrats want assurances before they pass the Senate bill. The Senate Dems have said that they are willing to change their bill in reconciliation, but the house's fix bill is still being written, and the Senators haven't made any specific promises about particular measures. The House may propose changes that the Senators might consider not to comply with the Byrd Rule (that only strictly budgetary items can be amended in reconciliation). You can bet that Senate Republicans will raise Byrd Rule challenges against at least some of the proposed fixes.
 
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If it is a single bill, then the Senate has to take it up as new business, and not through budget reconciliation.

What if it is a single bill that is an amended version of a previously passed Senate bill?

For example, when the House and Senate pass different bills, the normal process is a conference committee, whose output goes back to the House and to the Senate. My understanding of the process is that at that point the conference report is not new business and doesn't have to be debated. In other words, you can't filibuster a conference report.

This wouldn't be a conference report as such, but it would be similar. It would be an amended version of previously passed legislation. Can that be introduced and moved to the floor of the Senate without debate?

Come to think of it, is there some reason why the House just doesn't introduce the Senate bill, amend it, pass it, have a conference committee, and then reintroduce the conference report without debate into both houses, and vote?
 
What if it is a single bill that is an amended version of a previously passed Senate bill?

That's exactly why the House is considering the self-executing rule. In fact, you could see the House bill that already passed as an amended version of the Senate bill (or vice versa, since the House bill passed first). So we already have that situation. The issue is, that even the Senate bill would not be able to come to a vote in the face of a filibuster now that the Dems only have 59 (or 58) seats in the Senate.

And there are enough hold-outs among House Democrats unwilling to vote for the Senate version as it is, that they're considering the self-executing rule This rule would allow them to pass the Senate version along with their amendments without having a separate vote on the Senate version alone.

As Joobz pointed out--this basically protects Representatives from attack ads claiming they voted for a bill that they really did not support as is. Contrary to what Freddy has said, I think it's a real political benefit.

The question we've had more disagreement on here is if the Senate bill plus amendments passed the House using the self-executing rule, would the naked Senate bill (the only thing at that point to have passed both chambers) have to be signed into law before the Senate would attempt to pass the amendments using reconciliation (a simple majority needed to pass budget items). I don't think it's so, but Freddy provided a source where the Senate Parlimentarian said exactly that would have to happen.

And meanwhile, Obama has succeeded in getting a couple more of the House Democrats who were not willing to vote for the Senate bill (in a direct vote) to change their position. It could be that they'll get enough votes to do it without the self-executing rule.



For example, when the House and Senate pass different bills, the normal process is a conference committee, whose output goes back to the House and to the Senate. My understanding of the process is that at that point the conference report is not new business and doesn't have to be debated. In other words, you can't filibuster a conference report.

This wouldn't be a conference report as such, but it would be similar. It would be an amended version of previously passed legislation. Can that be introduced and moved to the floor of the Senate without debate?
It sounds like you're talking here about the Senate using reconciliation to pass changes to the bill that already passed with the supermajority. The Byrd Rule says you can only do that if the matters are budget items. So they're fairly limited in what changes they can make this way. If, for example, the Senate tried to pass the version of the bill already passed by the House, they would indeed have to overcome a filibuster.

Come to think of it, is there some reason why the House just doesn't introduce the Senate bill, amend it, pass it, have a conference committee, and then reintroduce the conference report without debate into both houses, and vote?
Several reasons. First, there aren't currently quite enough House Democrats willing to vote for the Senate bill not knowing for certain that the changes they want would be passed. (As I've been saying, a lot of this hinges on the degree of trust between House and Senate Democrats to stick to whatever they might agree to.) Second, through reconciliation, the only changes that can be made in the Senate (by simple majority) are limited to budget items. If the version introduced to a Senate floor vote is substantially different (in ways other than budget items), it would indeed face a filibuster.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/18/cbo-score-on-health-care_n_502543.html

CBO says the plan will cost less that $1 trillion and save $130 billion from the deficit, over ten years.

now get er done!!!

Here's a direct link to the CBO's preliminary report:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/18/hr4872.pdf

The numbers come as no surprise to anyone, though, because we've already seen the CBO analysis of all the major points. The main difference is about $20 billion more in on-budget deficit reductions over the 10 years.

It bugs me that the headlines keep saying "$940 Billion Cost". The net result of the plan is to decrease the deficit. The net cost is negative.

(I keep trying to come up with an analogy--all I can think of is if you were considering the health of Ford Motor Company, would it matter that it cost them a bajillion dollars to make the cars they make? Of course not. What matters is they can sell them for more than it cost to make them and thus turn a profit. Even if they lost money, the entire cost to make cars isn't all loss--it's that cost less the revenues they made selling the cars that counts.)

We all know that Americans spend a boatload of money on healthcare.

The net result of this bill is some badly needed health insurance reforms, the individual mandate as a tradeoff for those, and various programs to make insurance affordable to some 31 million of the currently uninsured. It's far from ideal, but overall it will do a lot of good.
 
Maybe a good analogy is refinancing your home and using some of the savings to make it better while still saving money in the long run.
 
What if it is a single bill that is an amended version of a previously passed Senate bill?

For example, when the House and Senate pass different bills, the normal process is a conference committee, whose output goes back to the House and to the Senate. My understanding of the process is that at that point the conference report is not new business and doesn't have to be debated. In other words, you can't filibuster a conference report.

This wouldn't be a conference report as such, but it would be similar. It would be an amended version of previously passed legislation. Can that be introduced and moved to the floor of the Senate without debate?

Come to think of it, is there some reason why the House just doesn't introduce the Senate bill, amend it, pass it, have a conference committee, and then reintroduce the conference report without debate into both houses, and vote?

Budget reconciliation is a process that is available for changing existing law only. It isn't existing law at least until it has passed both houses in exactly the same form, and possibly not until it is signed into law. So if the House bill is different from the Senate bill, they would go to regular conference committee to work out a compromise bill. That bill then must be passed by both Houses, and then it can go to the President. The problem is, the compromise bill would be subject to filibuster in the Senate. That's the whole reason why budget reconciliation is being talked about.

By the way, if you want a real headache, try figuring out the procedural ins and outs for budget reconciliation in the Senate. I'm sure about what I've said, but what I've said here barely scratches the surface.
 
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Here's a direct link to the CBO's preliminary report:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/18/hr4872.pdf

The numbers come as no surprise to anyone, though, because we've already seen the CBO analysis of all the major points. The main difference is about $20 billion more in on-budget deficit reductions over the 10 years.

It bugs me that the headlines keep saying "$940 Billion Cost". The net result of the plan is to decrease the deficit. The net cost is negative.

(I keep trying to come up with an analogy--all I can think of is if you were considering the health of Ford Motor Company, would it matter that it cost them a bajillion dollars to make the cars they make? Of course not. What matters is they can sell them for more than it cost to make them and thus turn a profit. Even if they lost money, the entire cost to make cars isn't all loss--it's that cost less the revenues they made selling the cars that counts.)

We all know that Americans spend a boatload of money on healthcare.

The net result of this bill is some badly needed health insurance reforms, the individual mandate as a tradeoff for those, and various programs to make insurance affordable to some 31 million of the currently uninsured. It's far from ideal, but overall it will do a lot of good.

It reduces the deficit only if you really believe that Congress will cut Medicare by $500 billion. That promise is less than credible, to be charitable. And it isn't the only sleight of hand that goes into that figure.
 
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I think maybe we're getting off topic here. (My fault, I think.)

It reduces the deficit only if you really believe that Congress will cut Medicare by $500 billion. That promise is less than credible, to be charitable. And it isn't the only sleight of hand that goes into that figure.

The reduced Medicare costs are part of what CBO estimated (these are not cuts to Medicare benefits that Congress would need to pass as separate legislation), not sleight of hand.

You're not suggesting the CBO is part of some Democratic Party conspiracy to falsify the estimates?

The fact is, the best estimate we have of the effect of this bill on the federal budget is that it will reduce the deficit over the first 10 years it is in force. There's no evidence of trickery in this.

Perhaps this side conversation belongs on this thread? If you don't mind, I'll request the mods move these few posts over there.
 
I think maybe we're getting off topic here. (My fault, I think.)



The reduced Medicare costs are part of what CBO estimated (these are not cuts to Medicare benefits that Congress would need to pass as separate legislation), not sleight of hand.

You're not suggesting the CBO is part of some Democratic Party conspiracy to falsify the estimates?

The fact is, the best estimate we have of the effect of this bill on the federal budget is that it will reduce the deficit over the first 10 years it is in force. There's no evidence of trickery in this.

Perhaps this side conversation belongs on this thread? If you don't mind, I'll request the mods move these few posts over there.

Okay, last off topic post. Even if I'm right, and I'm not totally sure or anything, it wouldn't implicate the CBO in any conspiracy. It would be entirely the work of the Democratic leaders hiding costs. The CBO does not question assumptions like this if they are given them. It isn't their job to do that. So even if a bill contained accounting that would make Enron executives blush, the CBO has no power to question it.

Some Medicare "savings" were already supposed to have gone into effect this winter, and Congress voted to put them off. I expect more of the same, because neither party has the chops to do something that unpopular. Just because savings are in the bill doesn't mean Congress won't later vote to delay them. Over and over. That would hardly be unprecedented.
 
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Question: how much would the Republican plan reduce the deficit over 10 years?

Ryan's plan has at least some of the same sort of chicanery. Maybe less of it, since it scored as less expensive. Maybe more of it, since it scored as less expensive.:)
 
It would be entirely the work of the Democratic leaders hiding costs. The CBO does not question assumptions like this if they are given them. It isn't their job to do that. So even if a bill contained accounting that would make Enron executives blush, the CBO has no power to question it.

wow, that's like accusing the Bush administration of lying about WMDs in Iraq.

;)
 
wow, that's like accusing the Bush administration of lying about WMDs in Iraq.

;)

Hey, I invented a hypothetical bill for a reason, and didn't mention which party had proposed it. Anyway, it would be more analogous to that assassination porn movie about Bush. Purely hypothetical.:D
 
But I will ask this: when is the last time a program like this did not end up costing considerably more than projected? Why do you think they always cost more than they're supposed to? I suggest that it is because this kind of cost hiding happens all the time. Both parties do it, so I'm not trying to score partisan points on this particular bill, but how many times are you going to trust these cost estimates when they always turn out to be gross underestimates of true cost? How many times would I have to kick you in the nuts before you start covering up whenever you see me?
 
Back on topic, the House has voted not to take the Slaughter strategy off the table. That doesn't mean they're going to do it, but the plot has certainly thickened.
 

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