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Porn vs. Art

I suggest you go back and read Post #499. Please keep up.

Well, maybe you like to read from bottom up but I prefer to read my posts chronologically. At least _I_ actually read the posts.

I suggest you go back and read Post #441. Please keep up.

Your kids are shy in your nude presence and you think this hurts them ?

That's your evidence ?

I asked for EVIDENCE, not personal single-case scenarios.
 
"For obvious reasons", except that they're not quite obvious enough to you, evidently!

:rolleyes: again with the veiled insults. Honestly, your method of dodging questions and the real issues raised by people's post by using insults the poster and trying to discredit them as a distraction is so old and tired and obvious. Do you work for yellow newspaper or something?

Do you see the fundamental problem with these two statements you've made, which form the bedrock of your argument?

:rolleyes: They aren't the bedrock of my argument. That is what a parent does: Help a child understand what events are happening and guide her or him by making decisions for a child because they are not old enough to make it. I mean, a child may know what happens when she or he drinks alcohol, but the parents decide that the child shouldn't because the parents have had the experience to know what bad things can happen.

So what part of parenting do you not agree with here?

As to what I said:

JFrankA said:
Now with children, the difference is that assumption, "old enough to make their own decisions" does not apply for obvious reasons.

Children aren't old enough to make their own decisions when it comes to a lot of stuff. They are still learning. It's a parent's job to make some or a lot of those decisions for a child. For example, if a child wants a dog, understands that a dog needs to be fed and cared for, understands that means walking a dog at 2am, the final decision is made by a parent. What's wrong with that statement?


JFrankA said:
If a person wants to make a piece of art involving a nude child for whatever reason, (sometimes to express innocence, I may add), and the child clearly understands what is going on.

What's wrong with the child understanding what's happening? Using the same example, is it good parenting to just get a dog when the child doesn't understand the care that goes into owning a dog and would rather have a hamster?

The point I was making is that in the case with child photography (nude or otherwise) both conditions (and the other conditions I listed) needs to be met: a) the child must understand what is going on in the shoot, what everyone is doing and why and b) the parents to make the final decision if it's alright. If the parents or the child don't like something, then the child can back out.

Seriously, SW, try talking about the issues instead of playing "conspiracy finder". Either that or the words "for obvious reasons" don't apply to you.

Unless and until we resolve this obvious contradiction there's little merit in addressing the rest of your tortuous tome, if even then.

I chose my word carefully and I stand by what I say:

Just because a person understands what is happening doesn't mean that they are old enough to make their own decisions.

Do you see the problem with your own argument?

Congratulations! Once again, you've successfully used veiled insults and negative innuendo of my character in order to completely dodge the point, the issue and the obvious hypocrisy in your own statements.
 
You seem to find much puzzling.

You know, you put me on ignore a while back because you found me annoying. Considering the lengths to which you're going to insult me when I'm trying to carry a conversation with you, you have to admit that I have a lot of patience.

Or maybe you just think that, because you're puzzled?!

No, I think the fact that every other poster here is trying to get the same point through your thick head demonstrates that you don't get it, very clearly.

A "pattern", by definition, has order, and hence meaning.

Wow. That is so much wrong that I don't know where to start.

In a strong of zeros and ones, "11001100110011001100" is a pattern. What does it mean ? NOTHING. There. Your ridiculous assertion has been disproven.

What other purpose do you think a pattern has?!

None. Some patterns are created by random forces.

It seems like you're agreeing with me now

You're making such an effort disagreeing with me that such a situation would be physically impossible. In other words, no.

that the pattern of the paint has intrinsic quality, and contradicting yourself in the process. I think you're somewhat puzzled, again.

That's funny. I tell you "The pattern means nothing unless you give it meaning", and somehow you think I'm saying that the pattern has an intrinsic quality ???
 
The "pornographer" can wear two, possibly more, hats at the same time, and I acknowledged that a long time ago when I agreed that porn can, I repeat CAN sometimes have artistic merit. Meaning, of course, that whilst two hats are being worn each role is not being conducted to the exclusivity of the other. Which is why, coming right back to the OP, porn cannot be art per se. What a romantic end to a lovely story!


Wow. Just wow.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying: "Yes a pornographer can be an artist, and try to make porn using artistic means but because it's porn (with intent to arouse) that overrides what art is and cannot be art."

:rolleyes:
 
I've never heard of "the "found art" movement", but as the name itself implies it seems they choose to define art almost entirely contradictory to my trusty Chambers. I suppose we could all start a "movement" if we so wished, and I suppose being a "movement" any group of like-minded people can choose to define things in whatever way suits their purpose and motives. So long as such definitions, however, remain within such groups, or are used generally in the context of the applicable group, that's fine. Extend such usage outside such groups, however, and hence out of context, and it doesn't wash. Sorry.

It doesn't take a movement, as the definition of art isn't objective or absolute.

Are you asking me? If so I'll answer. No ... they're not art (unless you mean "found art", of course, in the context of the "Found Art Movement").

So a kid or adult putting up such an image as a poster on his wall, because he wants to appreciate its beauty and engender warm thoughts in him, isn't enough to make such an image art? Just because a human didn't create it? Keep in mind, a human did choose how to frame the image, when to shoot it to make it the most pleasing or impactful, and the site itself. I guess you don't think the following are art either?

hubart.jpg


fract.jpg


rotjbattle.jpg
 
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So where, exactly, is the "exact" flaw, then?!

I've never heard of "the "found art" movement", but as the name itself implies it seems they choose to define art almost entirely contradictory to my trusty Chambers. I suppose we could all start a "movement" if we so wished, and I suppose being a "movement" any group of like-minded people can choose to define things in whatever way suits their purpose and motives. So long as such definitions, however, remain within such groups, or are used generally in the context of the applicable group, that's fine. Extend such usage outside such groups, however, and hence out of context, and it doesn't wash. Sorry.


Are you asking me? If so I'll answer. No ... they're not art (unless you mean "found art", of course, in the context of the "Found Art Movement").
Well this brings me back to my original analogy.

You correctly note that all squares are rectangles. You then state that all rectangles are squares, and use it as the premise for several other things. When asked to defend this statement, you insist that its defensible because all squares are rectangles, and you can prove it.

As I said, you highlighted your exact flaw. A true statement does not necessitate the truth of its converse. If you spent more time reading my posts, and less time jumping to the "quote" button to get in a meaningless question the answer to which is explained a sentence or paragraph later, I think you should grasp that.

Anyway, you answered all issues - you've defined the converse of a true statement as true, and counterexamples are rejected. It's not so much an argument as a strong logical flaw backed with bluster, but at least its not a straight denial of geometry.
 
I might be misinterpretaing here, but it's not "images of nudes" that's at issue here, but the process of involving nude children in creating images of nudes. Clearly (hopefully), there's a hugely significant difference. So, to come to the point, cigarettes have been scientifically proven to be harmful because at some point a suspicion was raised that prompted studies. Prior to that cigarettes were the natural lifestyle choice, and also "cool". In other words, cigarettes were great - period! Isn't it funny how some things can go from being great to deplorable (my view) without any intrinsic change, and how we so often look back embarrasingly and think: Doh! That should have been obvious (or at least suspicious to the extent of not simply passively adopting a "Well we don't know it's harmful, so let's just assume it's not." attitude!


As usual you overlook an important distinction. Almost without exception all of the things in your "expanded" list carry no reasonably perceived risk (yes, I know, we've debated the idea of "reasonably perceived" before, to no avail (not so far as I'm concerned, anyhow)). I very much doubt that even you, if you're to be honest, would adamantly deny that it's reasonably possible that some psychological, if not physical, harm could come to some children from posing nude in the name of art. Continuing, again, if you were to be honest I'm sure you could form a rational argument as to why and how that potential risk exists. Please, however, offer your rational argument in support of a ban of blue T-shirts, Spongebob movies and sheets of bond paper (I deliberately omit body powder and fish oil as it seems conceivable to me that being inhaled and consumed respectively they could actually pose a risk. I suspect, however, that evidence exists in respect of both products showing that neither is harmful if handled/consumed sensibly).


It's a shame that you can't see why TraneWreck's response is ironically both reasonable and mature!


Hopefully, your consideration of the in-principle difference from a perceived risk perspective between children posing nude in the name of art and blue T-shirts, for example, will enable you to answer this for yourself.


Enough said, I think.


It is banning, both patently and rightly. But it's certainly not without thinking, except on your part, it seems.


If only you could see the wood.


Obviously (to me) you were getting the wrong impression. TraneWreck's response makes perfect sense to me, but if he elects to re-write it in words of one syllable for your benefit, well that's his prerogative.


Red herring. Patent differences between child nude modelling and child pornography are irrelevant to the question as to whether child nude modelling is harmful in the same way that showing that cigar smoke is harmful has no bearing on the characteristics of cigarette smoke.


If only you read what people write. TraneWreck has made it absolutely clear that a key differentiator is orchestrating the nudity as opposed to simply capturing an image that has occured "naturally". Let's try this: You know what a snuff movie is, I assume. Do you think somebody should be arrested for making one? Do you think a bystander should be arrested for filming an armed robbery on their mobile phone where innocent people are killed? See the difference now?


Well, at least you seem to appreciate one side of the equation, if not argument.

You haven't been paying attention to the thread, have you??
 
Oh but it does. If aversion to nudity is nothing but a cultural phobia, then arguments against nakedness lose most of their teeth. Your children's feelings are thus largely irrational. If they see someone naked and get uncomfortable, it's their problem and nobody else's.
How irresponsible. By that reckoning a hydrophobic child's irrational fear of water is that child's "problem", meaning that it's perfectly appropriate and acceptable for a swimming instructor to throw him/her into the swimming pool! After all, what harm would that do, provided they don't drown?! :rolleyes:

Short of actual abusedrowning, the only harm that can come to a [hydrophobic] child from the act of posing nude being thrown into a swimming pool is the backlash of a society ignorant in their arbitrary righteousness. Now one could argue that the parents and photographerswimming instructor, being aware of the views of their society, are at least partially to blame since they are putting the child in that position. But the same could be said of any situation with the potential for harm by others. [editing mine!]
:eek:
 
Perhaps you'd like to read this. This is YOUR argument, not mine.
How have I donc this by explaining to you how YOUR argument works ?
Ah, I see. So what you're saying is that "wearing an artist's hat" e.g. being an artist, is defined as being a person who creates art! Therefore your entire point about Mike was wrong. Well, at least we are in agreement.
I wish some of this made sense. I fear you're still puzzled!
 
Children aren't old enough to make their own decisions when it comes to a lot of stuff. They are still learning. It's a parent's job to make some or a lot of those decisions for a child. ... What's wrong with that statement?
Nothing per se. It's just that it's incompatible with this statement:
If a person wants to make a piece of art involving a nude child for whatever reason, (sometimes to express innocence, I may add), and the child clearly understands what is going on ...


The point I was making is that in the case with child photography (nude or otherwise) both conditions (and the other conditions I listed) needs to be met: a) the child must understand what is going on in the shoot, what everyone is doing and why and b) the parents to make the final decision if it's alright.

Just because a person understands what is happening doesn't mean that they are old enough to make their own decisions.
So what element of judgement is left for the parent if the child fully understands!? I don't think you appreciate what "understand" means.
 
I wish some of this made sense. I fear you're still puzzled!

And still you both misread and miss the point. No wonder you're puzzled!

I fear you're getting more and more in Southwind mode, where you simply retort with insults to cover the fact that you understand nothing of your own argument.

It's amazing, really. A rational poster would've said a few pages ago "Nah, you know that Michaelangelo example of mine ? That was nonsense. Sorry, worded it completely wrong. Anyway, on with the subject matter..." and nobody would've blamed him for doing that.

You, however, are incapable of admitting your own mistakes, refuse to understand the implications of your own words, neglect to read the posts of your correspondants properly, and forget the thread with each new post. On top of that, you eventually fold up into a nice little cocoon and shield yourself from any and all arguments by responding to everything with an insult.

Hell, a few posts ago, YOU were puzzled, and I certainly didn't bug you about it for 6 straight posts, although the fact that you are USUALLY puzzled certainly sprung to mind.

You, sir, have no business on a skeptics board.
 
Wow. That is so much wrong that I don't know where to start.
In a strong of zeros and ones, "11001100110011001100" is a pattern. What does it mean ? NOTHING. There. Your ridiculous assertion has been disproven.
I'm pleased you found somewhere! What does it really mean? It means there is "directed purpose" or "non-random cause" involved in creating it. And that, my friend, is an essential characteristic of "art", noting, however, and importantly, that not everything resulting from directed purpose or non-random cause necessarily qualifies as "art" (such as "found art", for example). Wow, indeed!

Some patterns are created by random forces.
Care to offer an example? In the meantime, even if a "random force" did create a pattern that doesn't necessarily mean that the "pattern" is random, does it.

You're making such an effort disagreeing with me that such a situation would be physically impossible. In other words, no.
I assure you, It's hardly any effort at all.

That's funny. I tell you "The pattern means nothing unless you give it meaning", and somehow you think I'm saying that the pattern has an intrinsic quality ???
What meaning do you, personally, give to the pattern on this flag?



I'm willing to bet that you give it exactly the same meaning as I, personally, do. Wow, what a coincidence!
 
Let me see if I understand what you are saying: "Yes a pornographer can be an artist, and try to make porn using artistic means but because it's porn (with intent to arouse) that overrides what art is and cannot be art."
Art per se, no, it cannot. Porn with some artistic merit, for sure. I think you might be catching on!
 
It doesn't take a movement, as the definition of art isn't objective or absolute.
Well it sure seems to have taken a movement to contextualize if not legitimize the term "found art"!

So a kid or adult putting up such an image as a poster on his wall, because he wants to appreciate its beauty and engender warm thoughts in him, isn't enough to make such an image art?
:confused: You think what somebody actually does with a sheet of paper bearing an image determines its qualification as art or not?! I can see you're one of those people who gets excited over a random pile of bricks just because you come across it in an art gallery!

Just because a human didn't create it?
art n practical skill, or its application, guided by principle; human skill and agency (opp to nature); application of skill to production of beauty (esp visible beauty) and works of creative imagination, as in the fine arts ... [The Chambers Dictionary 1998 Reprint]​
I was inclined to highlight the most pertinent words, but it would hardly leave any! I have underlined one particularly important aspect, though.

Keep in mind, a human did choose how to frame the image, when to shoot it to make it the most pleasing or impactful, and the site itself.
Ah ... so now you're referring to the inherent nature of the image, not just which wall somebody chooses to pin it on. Please make up your mind what you think "art" is.

I guess you don't think the following are art either?

[qimg]http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/1016/hubart.jpg[/qimg]
Nope - that's a natural occurrence, or are you alluding to the actual photo of that natural occurrence? The photo is probably art, as skill was probably applied in creating it. The phenomenon itself, however, most certainly is not art.

[qimg]http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7008/fract.jpg[/qimg]
I'm not quite sure what this image is. It looks man-made, and skilfully created guided by artistic principle, in which case yep.

[qimg]http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4457/rotjbattle.jpg[/qimg]
Yep - skill required guided by artistic principle
 
Well this brings me back to my original analogy.

You correctly note that all squares are rectangles. You then state that all rectangles are squares, and use it as the premise for several other things. When asked to defend this statement, you insist that its defensible because all squares are rectangles, and you can prove it.

As I said, you highlighted your exact flaw. A true statement does not necessitate the truth of its converse. If you spent more time reading my posts, and less time jumping to the "quote" button to get in a meaningless question the answer to which is explained a sentence or paragraph later, I think you should grasp that.

Anyway, you answered all issues - you've defined the converse of a true statement as true, and counterexamples are rejected. It's not so much an argument as a strong logical flaw backed with bluster, but at least its not a straight denial of geometry.
I stated that all rectangles are squares?! I did?! Did I? I think you'll find that the converse is true, if you care to check. What a shame your contention relies wholly on a careless mistake on your part. Now, what was that about spending more time?! :rolleyes:
 
I fear you're getting more and more in Southwind mode, where you simply retort with insults to cover the fact that you understand nothing of your own argument.
"The fact". What "fact"? You can prove such "fact", presumably?

It's amazing, really. A rational poster would've said a few pages ago "Nah, you know that Michaelangelo example of mine ? That was nonsense. Sorry, worded it completely wrong. Anyway, on with the subject matter..." and nobody would've blamed him for doing that.
No. A rational poster would make rational posts.
 

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