It was easier when I believed in God.

Nanny Ogg

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Nanny Ogg
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
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Hello, JREF folks; Nanny Ogg here.

This is only my second post here--the other one was in the, "Introduce Yourself," section.

I'm not actually sure how to phrase this as a question, or if it's just an observation. I'm not even sure how you folks will react.

I was raised a strict Catholic, and after years of study now consider myself an agnostic.

Right now, I'm thinking it was so much easier believing in God. I didn't feel so alone. And I didn't have to have people look at me like I'm some kind of evil person because I am choosing logic over blind faith.

If anyone ever used to watch Buffy, there's one point where she tells Giles that growing up is hard. She asks Giles if life ever gets easier--he hesitates and asks her what she would like him to tell her. She replies, "Lie to me."

Giles thinks and says, "Yes, it's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after."

Finding out that there is no God, no ultimate plan, no safety-net, no reward, no justice--it's just very disheartening. I can't crawl back into my little pile of myths; once you start questioning, it's hard to ignore truths.

I guess my question is, what are some things that a person can do when they are confronting the loss of faith in a personal god?

--Nanny Ogg
 
I wish I could answer. Belief in god seems to be like tobacco - if you've never been hooked, you don't miss it when it's not there.
 
I feel you. I was also raised as a devout Catholic and also decided I was an agnostic after years of going back and forth with myself on God.

It was pretty painful to lose my faith and I miss Catholicism even now, especially since it was a loss of part of one's identity and culture, too, as well as religion.

Think of all you have in return, though. The world of science, the wonders of the natural world, the freedom of being free from superstition, the ability to think rationally, logically, systematically and with a clear head (not just about religion but about all areas of life, from urban legends you hear to issues of geopolitics- being a skeptic really helps you in life by giving you a very good BS detector), the ability to think for yourself, the knowledge that if you do a good deed it comes from no other reason than the desire to do a good thing, no longer being tormented by religious doubts now that you know it's probably all fake, no longer being dominated by authority, on earth or in the sky, no longer feeling bad about sinning (be it, say, failing to honor your father and mother or something more serious) and many other things.

At the least, think that you can now drink, swear, eat meat on Lent, date, smoke, wear skimpy clothes, have gay friends, etc. with no more guilt or feelings of obligation. And, my favorite part, no more getting up early on Sundays.

I agree with you, though, it was easier when I believed in God. In some ways, anyway. I'm certain I wouldn't turn back the clock, though.
 
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Think about it this way:

You're free. You don't have to waste another minute of your only life in devotion to something that does not exist. You can be a good person because it's the right thing to do and it's rewarding, not because you're fearful of some divine punishment.

Life should be easier without that yoke hanging around your neck.
 
I've never been a believer, so I don't want to imply that I know what you're going through, but here are the things I find value in:

-the beauty and power of music, a uniquely human expression-Bach, the guy in my avatar...etc.

-The impossible complexity and general awesomeness of the natural world. The human imagination pales in comparison to reality. Spend some time on the NASA website or looking at photos from Hubble--I feel an amazing sensation of reverence when I see these things--I'd imagine that sort of emotion is similar to the religious experience. And to the point, compare what's really out there to the account offering in holy scripture. Using those paltry stories to describe reality is like sending a blind person into the Louvre and having them describe the paintings to you.

-Funny things. Not many religions spend time arguing for the importance of laughter. I think it may be the very point to living.

-Autonomy-"I am the master of my fate, I am the Captain of my soul."--I find the idea of living with a Divine sky-daddy lording over me much more depressing than the opportunity to make my own decisions and the responsibility to guide my own moral being. Instead of an old book of fables that dictates right and wrong, I can read Plato, Kant, Jefferson, and an endless list of humans who have sat down and tried to reason their way through this fog of mystery that is our existence. I find joining that task to be immeasurably more enjoyable than thinking that masturbation will send me to hell.

The list goes much longer, and I don't know if that's the sort of thing you were looking for, but there are ample sources of purpose in this world of ours.
 
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It is harder work to be a thinking independent person. Consider your believing years your childhood. Welcome to being a grown up. It's harder but a lot more fun!
 
Basically you've decided you are responsible for your life, and you make the decisions based on what is happening around you now, instead of the vain thought that skydaddy will protect you, or not.
You may have noticed that all the groveling in fear of retribution accomplished nothing but exacerbated the fear.
You don't need to fear anything from the supernatural anymore.
Reality itself will smack you down, or lift you up! :)
 
As a former devout Catholic myself, I can relate. I am agnostic. I do believe that there is something more to the world, a creative force, but I don't pretend to know what it is. certainly don't think it's the Judeo-Christian God I was raised to believe. I think it's possible that all that creative force is is the universe itself, not something necessarily divine.

I actually don't miss my belief in the Catholic God.

I DO, however, miss Catholicism in general, which WAS a great source of strength for me. I grew up in a very close, loving parish. I have nothing but good things to say about it. There was no condemnation of gays or other religions or anything like that. It was a very good experience for me. I just don't believe in it any more. But I miss it. I miss the rituals and the comfort I drew from them. I miss the saints (they're like your own personal superheroes). I miss the wonder that surrounded Christmas and Easter. I miss the comfort of believing that good people are rewarded in the end and bad people punished.

So I understand missing it, but in the end, you just have to find comfort in other things. I see wonder in the natural world, and I think of Christmas and Easter as a great opporunity to have my loved ones gathered together and to be grateful and thankful for eachother and for life. I have to look for strength and power within myself instead of in my St Anthony medallian. I have to accept that I can't control the actions of others, and that people don't always get what they deserve, so all I can do is worry about my own self and what *I* do.

But the best thing for me personally is volunteering. I think doing good works really gives me the same satisfaction I once derived from church, a feeling of connectedness to my fellow man and a feeling like I was part of something greater than myself.
 
Nanny Ogg said:
Finding out that there is no God, no ultimate plan, no safety-net, no reward, no justice--it's just very disheartening. I can't crawl back into my little pile of myths; once you start questioning, it's hard to ignore truths.
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Yes, but I found it exhilarating instead of disheartening. This meant to me that I was in charge of my life instead of a god what seemed to be... well, unfair to say the least.

Nanny Ogg said:
I guess my question is, what are some things that a person can do when they are confronting the loss of faith in a personal god?
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Go out and celebrate? Just a thought... ;)

Welcome to the forum, BTW. :)
 
Nanny Ogg said:
... I guess my question is, what are some things that a person can do when they are confronting the loss of faith in a personal god?
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a. Party Hearty: Eat, Drink and be Merry.

b. Take up a new hobby.

c. Sleep in on Sundays.

d. Try something other than the Missionary position.

e. Invent a new god and religion, and set yourself up as its Grand Poobah on Earth.

f. Say the "F-Word" to a stranger, and really mean it.

g. Join a think-tank (JREF or the Rand Foundation, perhaps?).

h. Whatever else you can think of that would otherwise violate religious "law" and that does not cause harm or humiliation to yourself or others.
 
Nanny Ogg,

I too was raised Catholic. It was a shock to my system to find out that my parents, the nuns and priest all fed me a line of poop when I was younger. One of the things that really helped me and might help you is to read the forums and books by Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins, things of that nature.

And welcome!
 
Nanny Ogg said:
Hello, JREF folks; Nanny Ogg here.

This is only my second post here--the other one was in the, "Introduce Yourself," section.

I'm not actually sure how to phrase this as a question, or if it's just an observation. I'm not even sure how you folks will react.

I was raised a strict Catholic, and after years of study now consider myself an agnostic.

Right now, I'm thinking it was so much easier believing in God. I didn't feel so alone. And I didn't have to have people look at me like I'm some kind of evil person because I am choosing logic over blind faith.
Click to expand...
If you are wanting the fellowship and sense of belonging that you can get from a church, consider checking out the Universal Unitarians or a congregational church. Some of them welcome atheists and agnostics.
Finding out that there is no God, no ultimate plan, no safety-net, no reward, no justice--it's just very disheartening. I can't crawl back into my little pile of myths; once you start questioning, it's hard to ignore truths.

I guess my question is, what are some things that a person can do when they are confronting the loss of faith in a personal god?

--Nanny Ogg
Click to expand...

It's very hard for many people. You aren't alone, but it can seem that way at times. I find meditation helpful.

BTW, Nanny Ogg is one of my favorite Pratchett charactors. I'm sure I'll like you too! Welcome to the forum.
 
You can live life, be free, call someone the F word,(or say something nice), vote for a Republican, laugh, cry, enjoy music, the stars, a beautiful women……….You have Free Will.

And still believe in God.


DDWW
 
TraneWreck said:
-the beauty and power of music, a uniquely human expression-Bach, the guy in my avatar...etc.

-The impossible complexity and general awesomeness of the natural world. The human imagination pales in comparison to reality. Spend some time on the NASA website or looking at photos from Hubble--I feel a amazing sensation of reverence when I see these things--I'd imagine that sort of emotion is similar to the religious experience.
Click to expand...

Great post, all of it, but these 2 things especially are my answer so I'm quoting to avoid typing it all out.

That kind of awed, dizzy feeling I got as a kid sitting on top of our jungle gym at night looking at stars -- losing my religion has not changed that feeling. And it hasn't changed my hard-to-define emotional reaction to music. I don't have to mesh religion into those experiences to enjoy them.

And, I don't have to put up with that uncomfortable feeling I always got in church about praising God. (Why does he need so much praise? Is he insecure? Does he really need constant reassurance from humans, "you're super special, you really are!"?)
 
Nanny Ogg said:
Hello, JREF folks; Nanny Ogg here.

This is only my second post here--the other one was in the, "Introduce Yourself," section.

I'm not actually sure how to phrase this as a question, or if it's just an observation. I'm not even sure how you folks will react.

I was raised a strict Catholic, and after years of study now consider myself an agnostic.

Right now, I'm thinking it was so much easier believing in God. I didn't feel so alone. And I didn't have to have people look at me like I'm some kind of evil person because I am choosing logic over blind faith.

If anyone ever used to watch Buffy, there's one point where she tells Giles that growing up is hard. She asks Giles if life ever gets easier--he hesitates and asks her what she would like him to tell her. She replies, "Lie to me."

Giles thinks and says, "Yes, it's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after."

Finding out that there is no God, no ultimate plan, no safety-net, no reward, no justice--it's just very disheartening. I can't crawl back into my little pile of myths; once you start questioning, it's hard to ignore truths.

I guess my question is, what are some things that a person can do when they are confronting the loss of faith in a personal god?

--Nanny Ogg
Click to expand...

Nanny, I was also a devout Catholic; when I was a child I wanted to grow up to be a priest. However, when I finally overcame the guilt and fear of seperation from the Faith I felt liberated, not lost, so in a way my experience is different than yours.

If I am reading your thoughts correctly, though, I would say that there is one thing that will fill the void in your life - volunteer. For the Special Olympics, the Red Cross, whatever - somenthing where you will feel a real and immediate sense of fulfillment and community.
 
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Sledge said:
Enjoy life.
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Bingo.

------------------

Hi Nanny Ogg :)
Can I give you my 2 cents?

In my experience, "faith" can become such a crutch it's almost addicting. It can tint and taint one's entire life the more one clings to it. In this sense, it's like a drug that can help you get through a day and find a purpose and meaning in life and help you identify yourself as a "creature with a purpose", etc and so forth. Also, if your personal community is mostly made up of similar believing folk, it's almost as if your world IS faith.

And so I've experienced how incredibly lonely it can be to realize the truth about faith, and thus have the majority of your relationships almost crumble and fall apart as you change but they all stay the same, and even those you cared about and related to on certain levels begin to demonize you ... thus adding to your lonliness by ostracizing you perhaps. Or perhaps you feel this when it's not really there.

What helped me was two things:

* I fell completely, head over heels, deeply and madly in love with an atheist :). It is the most enjoyable, rewarding, and real relationship I've ever had in my life, because not only was it not built on illusion and fantasy, but our relationship is free and human ... a beautiful thing when you get the opportunity to experience it. A relationship without bounds :)

* I eased out of "faith". In other words, I didn't quit cold turkey and jump from one fire into an ocean I didn't know how to breathe in. There is no pressure saying that you can't hang onto your magical thinking if you miss it and you find your life more depressing without it.

You may not be this kind of person, I don't know ... but if you miss the feelings and sensations that your faith gave you, and find life harder without them at the moment, then perhaps give yourself a taste of your faith again when you feel like it? In other words, smoke a cigarette if that's what you liked. It won't kill you, and perhaps it will help you ease into "reality" instead of running from one to another. It may also help you to see the faith for exactly what it is, which could fuel your passion and enjoyment of your "new life" instead of clinging to the crutches of your old as you realize their crumbling nature. Does this make sense? It is similar to a person who used to be in prison and finding life irrelevant or pointless perhaps, so they revisit their prison to remember how awful the prison was and remind them life is much better on the outside than the inside.

And finally, don't make this mistake (imo): people are people regardless. If you are hoping that unbelievers will be "better" than believers, you will be going from one fantasy to another :). Look for reality. I can tell you that reality, even though it's hard to accept sometimes, is much more amazing and wonderful than fantasy. If you have all your faculties as a person, then don't consider yourself lucky or blessed. That's a waste of time. Go out and use them and be free. ;)
 
Turn to one of the other popular belief systems: "truth, justice, and the american way", voting makes the world better, universities actually make people smarter, if only one more tax is enacted, or one more benefit from the state offered, conservatives are evil, liberals are evil, libertarians are geniuses... Lose yourself in TV and the myths that it offers: that police aren't corrupt and honestly try to solve crimes, lawyers want what's right, non corrupt politicians exist, judges care about the constitution... Participate in the poopooing of alternative perspectives like conspiracies are happening or that no conspiracies are happening. Forgo all of that and immerse yourself in books, live for the next Harry Potter. Join a cult of pseudo-science: Support AGW without ever seeking out the data on your own, or argue for the manned space program without understanding the factors involved... Sit around and insist that everyone else in the world figure things out and then spoon feed it to you at your own pace. Construct a reality where you are the only one that understands anything.

Or embrace reason for what it is and seek truth. Learn to enjoy the tedious task of asking "why?" over and over and over again each and every time you think you have an answer. Thrill at the prospect of throwing out everything you ever thought you understood and starting all over several times a year, whether it is needed or not. Learn to be eager to find a way to make these tasks faster and more efficient.

My advice: go back to religion, and choose the warmest, fuzziest one you can find. It will make you feel better, life will be a whole lot easier, and you wont be as crazy as most.

(Anybody ever listen to Dennis Prager? I strongly suspect that that guy has gone all the way to the conclusion that there is no god and made a conscious choice to step back from it for that one simple reason.)
 
Nanny Ogg said:
Hello, JREF folks; Nanny Ogg here.

This is only my second post here--the other one was in the, "Introduce Yourself," section.

I'm not actually sure how to phrase this as a question, or if it's just an observation. I'm not even sure how you folks will react.

I was raised a strict Catholic, and after years of study now consider myself an agnostic.

Right now, I'm thinking it was so much easier believing in God. I didn't feel so alone. And I didn't have to have people look at me like I'm some kind of evil person because I am choosing logic over blind faith.

If anyone ever used to watch Buffy, there's one point where she tells Giles that growing up is hard. She asks Giles if life ever gets easier--he hesitates and asks her what she would like him to tell her. She replies, "Lie to me."

Giles thinks and says, "Yes, it's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after."

Finding out that there is no God, no ultimate plan, no safety-net, no reward, no justice--it's just very disheartening. I can't crawl back into my little pile of myths; once you start questioning, it's hard to ignore truths.

I guess my question is, what are some things that a person can do when they are confronting the loss of faith in a personal god?

--Nanny Ogg
Click to expand...

Hi there, Nanny Ogg.

Well, I was once a believer. I was raised Catholic but my family was always very liberal and secular - basically believing in God was more about doing the right things than obeying a certain book of rules. I never prayed, yet in my private thoughts I felt like I could talk to God. Then I found drugs (LSD and Psylocibin), I became a mystical, more about God as a Giver than an Asker.
So, my belief in God was always something very solipsistic. I was the kind of person who lost something very important and would turn to God and say "Please, if you help with XXX I'll never do this or that again." - I would eventually find the thing I was looking for and would obviously return to my old nasty habits.

What I still hate about religion was the impact it had on my sexual being, I was born in a very strict catholic background and one of the things that always puzzled me is that religious people seem to be MUCH MORE sexual and materialistic than non-religious people.

In dealing with my atheism, I decided I had to go all the way or nothing. Today, I'm quite a Nihilistic character and I feel wonderful about it. I just don't believe in nothing - if I had to say, the only value I find TRUE is the value of TRUTH itself. The rest is merely subjective, be it Love or Justice.

Maybe it is harder on women due to the fact that they are the ones who bring babies to life - and the difference between pleasing God's plan or just contributing to this "charade we call life" (Nietzsche) is a major difference. Are you a woman?
 
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