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Continuation - The PG Film - Bob Heironimus and Patty

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Hey Sweaty, on the previous page Odinn made some good points about comparing pics, and the errors that creep into such work. I've quoted the relevant points below; you may wish to peruse them before you make the unsupportable contention that your dots and lines have any merit.

Originally Posted by Óðinn *

Any photo comparisons must ensure that each photo has the correct aspect ratio. When pictures get digitized and cropped they have a funny habit of getting stretched. You need the full frame and camera specs to confirm the aspect ratio is true. None of these images have this.

* These are 3D objects projected onto a 2D surface. If there is ANY foreshortening that cannot be accounted AND corrected for, then the comparisons lie.

* Horizontal lines cannot be used to connect/compare body parts unless they are in the EXACT same 3D orientation, which is very tricky to confirm.

* All comparisons MUST use the LENGTH of a body part where the ends are points of articulation. These endpoints must be determined using body markers that are tracked over MANY frames as the body articulates thru the walk cycle.



Thanks, Vort. :)

I appreciate the effort to try to disregard what all these comparisons show...but...

First...I don't necessarily subscribe to everything that Odinn...or anyone else....states, unless what they state has been supported with something of substance.

Put another way......Odinn's statements aren't coming down to us from "above". He's human.


Secondly....I don't subsribe to the "ALL or NOTHING" philosophy that the scoftics of JREF subscribe to.

Just because a comparison isn't 100% accurate, it DOES NOT mean that's it's 100% in error....or totally worthless.
That type of thinking is only for people who have an agenda to protect. (Throw it all out!!! ;) )


Thirdly....while the principles Odinn mentioned do have merit....the "variables" that he's making reference to will, over the course of multiple comparisons, using multiple images of Bob and Patty, taken from multiple angles......average out, to some degree.

This 'averaging out' will cause the comparisons to sometimes favor Bob's arm length, or elbow-reach, moreso than Patty's....as appearing to be the longer length...if, in fact, their arms/elbows/body widths were actually equal....or very close to it.

But that NEVER happens.....that "day NEVER comes". The reason why that is...is very simple.....Patty's arms are longer than Bob's....Patty's elbow does reach further away from her backbone than Bob's does...Patty's upper-torso is wider.....and deeper....than Bob's.

Like it or not. :)
 
So, kitakaze........Roger never found the time to say to Bob Heironimus, during their trip up into the mountains......."Hey, Bob, check out this cool suit I had specially made...."??? :boggled:

No, Sweaty. By Bob's account Roger never mentioned any such thing. He told what he heard from his brother. He had a couple of hours the evening before and the next day up until filming was done to shoot the shizzle. What on Earth makes you think Roger would feel like giving BH the particulars of his hoax? More coffee for you.

So, Sweaty, as you can see, I haven't avoided talking elbows with you. Can you please find it within you to take a wild leap and address the posts I made about BH's connection to Patterson and Gimlin and the evidence that shows Roger faked Patty's casts?

You can do it!
 
No, Sweaty. By Bob's account Roger never mentioned any such thing. He told what he heard from his brother. He had a couple of hours the evening before and the next day up until filming was done to shoot the shizzle. What on Earth makes you think Roger would feel like giving BH the particulars of his hoax? More coffee for you.


I see......:)......and, in additon to that weird little "fact"....it's also seems odd to me that Heironimus never noticed the very large, bulky, inner-core when he put the suit into his car trunk, and brought it home....and took it out...and showed it to all his kin folk.


How the HECK did he miss that massive inner-core???????????????????? :boggled: :boggled: :boggled:.......with it's extreme width, depth, very large protruding butt...thick thigh padding....large, bulging calf muscles....:confused:


BTW, kitakaze....did you notice the LARGE letters I just used, only a few seconds ago?????

LARGE things are very easy to notice...in case you hadn't noticed.




So, Sweaty, as you can see, I haven't avoided talking elbows with you.


Yup....that's all you can do, with the elbow measurements...and comparisons......TALK.

How about showing specifically where, and to what extent there is an error in the upper-arm comparison of Bob and Patty, I just posted??

I'm thinking you won't be able to. :D



Can you please find it within you to take a wild leap and address the posts I made about BH's connection to Patterson and Gimlin and the evidence that shows Roger faked Patty's casts?

You can do it!


Sure....based on what the 'elbow-reach' measurements show, and on what other comparisons show....I put absolutely NO weight, whatsoever, on anything Bob Heironimus says.
 
Sure....based on what the 'elbow-reach' measurements show, and on what other comparisons show....I put absolutely NO weight, whatsoever, on anything Bob Heironimus says.

Oh FFS, Sweaty, that was a great big jump to the left. I'm not asking you to address anything Bob said. I'm asking you to address the fact, the factual, the it is truth connection BH had with Patterson and Gimlin and the evidence that Roger faked Patty's tracks.

C'mon, Sweaty, just try a little intellectual honesty for once in your life. I'm not asking for backflips. Just address the points at hand.
 
I'm asking you to address the fact, the factual, the it is truth connection BH had with Patterson and Gimlin and the evidence that Roger faked Patty's tracks.


kitakaze's responses have de-volved into meaningless babble. :)

That'll make a nice addition to my signature line.


I'll sum-up my thoughts about Heirony again...

I am 100% cert-tane...(that's a goofy variation on the word "certain")....that he's full of...............oh, what's the word....


Ummmmmm........it'll come to me...




Oh, as far as the trackway being faked....that suggestion is ludicrous.

The prints were simply too deep to have been made by a person...( a fully-modern Human, that is)...walking.....each footprint would have to have been made individually, by hand.
And that notion becomes ludicrous when you consider the fact that the trackway went on much further than the spot where the filming stopped...and, if someone was making them by hand....they would have had NO REASON WHATSOEVER to continue making a long, extended trackway....when they could have simply 'turned left', and taken the short route into the forest.
 
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Regarding Odinn's points, about needing to have 'ALL the info' behind any and all images being used in comparisons, for them to have any meaning, or veracity....here is a comparison of Bob, with Bob...


BobBobNGComp2.jpg



Amazingly....Bob matches Bob, extremely closely.....if not perfectly. This, despite the many differences in the taking of the pictures....such as cameras, lenses, distances, angles...etc.


Funny, how Bob matches Bob, with/despite all of those differences...yet, when Bob is compared to "Bob/Patty"...he NEVER matches...(at the key points...the eyes, elbow-joints, and knee joints...which are unaffected by padding). :)
 
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Funny, how Bob matches Bob, with/despite all of those differences...yet, when Bob is compared to "Bob/Patty"...he NEVER matches...(at the key points...the eyes, elbow-joints, and knee joints...which are unaffected by padding). :)

I'm on ROMPER ROOM! I can do it too.

Why are you using a Giant picture of BobH in relation to Patty?

They look dead-nuts on his elbow is right where it should be if he is in a costume, same with his shoulder, knee and face. Where do u get this stuff?


89614767d1cac857b.bmp
 
kitakaze's responses have de-volved into meaningless babble. :)

That'll make a nice addition to my signature line.

Yes, that's excellent. I encourage you to do that right now. Add to your signature the line about the fact that Bob Heironimus has a proven very close connection to Patterson and Gimlin as well as there being significant evidence that Roger faked Patty's tracks. I'm waiting for this change.


I'll sum-up my thoughts about Heirony again...

I am 100% cert-tane...(that's a goofy variation on the word "certain")....that he's full of...............oh, what's the word....

Ummmmmm........it'll come to me...

picture.php


Sweaty, you're not fooling anyone. All your squirming does nothing to distract from the fact that I am not asking you to address a single specific thing Bob has said about being Patty.

Let me put up my post you are trying so hard to evade reformatted to be more comprehensible to the eyes of Sweaty...

What..........do YOU.......think.........of the FACT that the :eek:only:eek: person who has.....EVER......claimed to be Patty was FRIENDS:):):):):) with Bob Gimlin at the time the PGF was made and appears at various points on Patterson's film? WHAT do.....YOU....think about the..........F A C T......that Bob Heironimus lives only NINE doors from Bob Gimlin and has done so since the PGF was made??:covereyes:covereyes:covereyes:covereyes What DO you think about THE......fact:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp that Bob Gimlin has NEVER taken......ANY.....legal action against the man whose testimony threatens his credibility to people....ALL OVER THE WORLD....who see him as a hero and endangers his personal profit from the film?? What do you think about the fact that Bob Heironimus has PASSED :D:D:D 2TWO2 ...........separate........ polygraphs concerning his involvement with the PGF?? What do you think of the.........fact.......that Heironimus confirms that HE is STILL FRIENDS:eye-poppi:eye-poppi:eye-poppi:eye-poppi with his neighbour, Gimlin, and sees him on occasion in which there is..............NO.......discussion about Bigfoot at all??

Do you not find it :boxedin:troubling:boxedin: at all that the only PERSON to ever claim to be Patty is that closely associated with Patterson and Gimlin??

Phew! Typing Bigfoot fanatic is a pain in the butt!

Oh, as far as the trackway being faked....that suggestion is ludicrous.

The prints were simply too deep to have been made by a person...( a fully-modern Human, that is)...walking.....each footprint would have to have been made individually, by hand.
And that notion becomes ludicrous when you consider the fact that the trackway went on much further than the spot where the filming stopped...and, if someone was making them by hand....they would have had NO REASON WHATSOEVER to continue making a long, extended trackway....when they could have simply 'turned left', and taken the short route into the forest.

This is fantastic. Yes, let's do this. Let's talk Patty tracks. I'm going to do this crazy thing right now. Let's call it a KK Frontside 180° Logic Flip With a Twist to Bigfoot Fanatic Faceplant 911 Call My Mom. Here goes...

You can't show that it's possible for the casts of Patty's showing morphologically very different left feet to actually come from one real animal foot, can you, Sweaty. All you can do is talk but you can't SHOW anything to disprove the evidence.

Oh my goodness, that was fun. Now let's address that load of fail that you just wrote. There's no reason whatsoever to continue making an extended trackway when they could have taken a short rout into the forest? You level a credulity amuses the heck out of me...

1) What are you talking about short route into the forest? Sweaty, man, that is not what they filmed! The PGF shows Patty walking off into the distance from behind. They have to make tracks for that.

2) Why would they make an extended trackway when a shorter one would be easier. Hmmm... Yes... Why would they make such an effort more believable. It's almost like they were trying to make people believe them...

Palm on the face.

Sweaty, you do raise a very interesting point about the tracks - there depths. Except, what you don't realize that this is one of the very factors that makes a hoax even more likely. You see, in their zeal for effect, they went too far. There's a post you've ignored that I kept linked to my post about the evidence of the tracks being hoaxed. The post was made by River and had an excellent article by the late, great Michael Dennett for the Skeptical Inquirer magazine.

Here again is River's post with a link to Dennett's article...

You're of course assuming a few things here. For one: the feet of the subject left the imprints that were cast. Two: the frames that you were using as references show quite different size foot when in comparison to the percentage of body height. In other words, is the foot stretching/shrinking? Perhaps the films ability to enlarge a subject of that size (in relation to the full frame percent) as well as factors such as motion blur could account for a substantial variant in a height estimate that only uses the "foot as a ruler" method of getting a height estimate.

One of the classic problems with this film is that using photogrammetry to get scale on the subject (using distance from camera to subject, lens focal length and percentage of full frame) have not been corroborated by the "foot as a ruler" method. Many people have done the same experiment you attempted above with the measuring of pixels and compariing them to the 14.5 casts taken from the film site. Some of the estimates are much lower than yours (from 5' 10" to 6' 3" standing height) using the "foot as a ruler" method. The problem is using the distance from camera to subject, focal length and full frame percent does not corroborate these numbers. In fact it would put the subject seen on film well within human range, and even below Heironimus height. It would put the height right around the range of Patterson and Gimlin both though. Interesting isnt it? :)

The foot as a ruler should corroborate the other photogrammetry method. (distance, focal lengh, percentage of full frame) It doesnt. This would imply that the trackway may have been fabricated. Another good indicator is the track depth. Without going into detail, the tracks were too deep to have been left by a subject of that size. To quote Gimlin "Deeper than the horses tracks" and he goes on to describe the size of the horse and estimates the weight. The rest isnt very hard to figure out.

Heres a great article by Michael Dennet that goes into a little detail about that for you.


Theres also the little issue of Patterson mentioning to Krantz that he had filmed himself just days before casting a fake bigfoot track. (which according to the timing of it - must've been in the bluff creek area) So wheres the other film of Patterson casting this fake bigfoot track? There are scenes of what appear to be Patterson casting bigfoot tracks, but those were represented as "real" from the subject seen on film by Patterson. Funny enough, many have speculated that this film may have been shot at an earlier date than reported. Maybe a few days earlier? A week? How long would it have to be to match up with what Patterson told Krantz? Interesting little tidbit about footprints and matching them up to the subject seen on film :)

Gimlin admits he was riding Heironimus' horse, Chico. Gimlin told John Green that Chico weighed 12-1300 lbs and that he weighed about 165 lbs. How did Patty's big flat feet sink in deeper than almost 1500 lbs on four small hooves? Whaaa???

What Bob heironimus told me directly was that Roger and Bob had Chico for eight days. Eight days is plenty of time to fake Patty's tracks.
 
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kitakaze wrote:
Sweaty, you're not fooling anyone. All your squirming does nothing to distract from the fact that I am not asking you to address a single specific thing Bob has said about being Patty.

Let me put up my post you are trying so hard to evade reformatted to be more comprehensible to the eyes of Sweaty...

Originally Posted by kitakaze
What..........do YOU.......think.........of the FACT that the :eek:only:eek: person who has.....EVER......claimed to be Patty was FRIENDS:):):):):) with Bob Gimlin at the time the PGF was made and appears at various points on Patterson's film? WHAT do.....YOU....think about the..........F A C T......that Bob Heironimus lives only NINE doors from Bob Gimlin and has done so since the PGF was made??:covereyes:covereyes:covereyes:covereyes What DO you think about THE......fact:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp that Bob Gimlin has NEVER taken......ANY.....legal action against the man whose testimony threatens his credibility to people....ALL OVER THE WORLD....who see him as a hero and endangers his personal profit from the film?? What do you think about the fact that Bob Heironimus has PASSED :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: 2TWO2 ...........separate........ polygraphs concerning his involvement with the PGF?? What do you think of the.........fact.......that Heironimus confirms that HE is STILL FRIENDS:eye-poppi:eye-poppi:eye-poppi:eye-poppi with his neighbour, Gimlin, and sees him on occasion in which there is..............NO.......discussion about Bigfoot at all??

Do you not find it :boxedin:troubling:boxedin: at all that the only PERSON to ever claim to be Patty is that closely associated with Patterson and Gimlin??


Phew! Typing Bigfoot fanatic is a pain in the butt!


Patty's extreme 'elbow-reach' TRUMPS all of your gobbledy-gook, posted above. :)


Sorry.
 
Patty's extreme 'elbow-reach' TRUMPS all of your gobbledy-gook, posted above. :)


Sorry.

Sure, OK, Sweaty. Let's say for argument's sake it does. What it does not change that what you call gobbledy-gook are actually facts. Surely if you are so confident, you don't need to refuse to discuss the facts I'm pointing out there.

These are the houses of Gimlin and Heironimus...

picture.php


They have lived there since before the film was shot. Why is it that the only person who has ever claimed to be Patty is friends and neighbours with Gimlin? Gimlin could have sued Heironimus silly after Long's book came out. Why didn't he? Patty Patterson could have, also. Why didn't she? They didn't have an elbow analysis to cling to. They should have sued his butt off.

Why is it that BH could pass two well documented polygraphs when speaking about his involvement with his friend, Gimlin? He doesn't seem to be a pathological liar. He doesn't have a history of scamming people beyond his claim to be in the suit, if he was lying. He rides his horses and fixes up old Chevy's. How does he ace two polygraphs?

And he told me himself that he was with Gimlin at a horse show only two weeks ago, and that they didn't discuss Bigfoot. Should I doubt that? Why should I doubt that?

Have your trump and let's talk about this if your so confident. What's there to be afraid of? You always tell me I can't handle reality, Sweaty, but what I'm asking you about now is reality. No matter what you believe your pictures show, those things I am discussing are facts. So can you handle discussing those facts?
 
Next call to Bob.

So I'll be calling Bob again today if he's available. I've tried a couple time this afternoon, but he was out. Please feel free to offer more question suggestions. WP's question about whether or not he's ever received any hostility in Yakima or elsewhere is very interesting to me and I will be asking him about that.
 
1. Does he believe in bigfoot?
2, On exactly what date did filming take place?
3. Did the filming and track display occur on the same date?
4. Is there any evidence of the filming still in existance? (Props)
5. Can he accurately describe the type of suit he used in the recreation filming? We all know he actually did the recreation.
 
Since I now know that Lucas was telling the truth about talking with Bob Heironimus, I've reviewed all his posts and PM's to me. These are the posts of his that should be payed attention to...

Some things Bob H told me is that he is still friends with Gimlin.And his mother is ill.

I know this for a few reasons.It is because Tom Biscardi once offered Bob Gimlin to go somewhere with Bob H.Gimlin said he would meet Tom Biscardi and Bob H once he went to his house.When Bob H and Tom Biscardi went to Gimlin's home they saw Gimlin driving down the road running away from them.I have also seen pictures of Bob H riding a horse in reel 2.This proves Bob H was there when Patterson and Gimlin shot the film.Bob H even lives 9 houses away from Bob Gimlin.

William Parcher one thing I want you to know is that Tom Biscardi visited Patricia Patterson who is Roger's widow 8 months ago.And according to Biscardi she said she would make a confession that it was a hoax.

When Bob H's story came out in 1999.Bob Gimlin admitted he could have been fooled by Roger Patterson.I think that Gimlin was nervous when Bob H's story came out.

Yeah its pretty much hearsay.I hope Biscardi isn't lying about it.Another thing is that Biscardi visited Roger Patterson in a hospital in 1970.Roger told Tom it was a hoax.I got this information from the guy on youtube who gave Bob H's phone number.

Biscardi didn't tell me this information.It was ALLENMUSKY a guy on youtube who is friends with Tom Biscardi.Biscardi is also going to make a huge expedition to the PNW.

ALLENMUSKY is the guy who told me this information about Patricia Patterson and Tom Biscardi.Also gave me Bob H's phone number.I hope he is right about it.

I hope he is right that Patricia Patterson will confess its a hoax.He told me she has hired an attorney and will explain why and how it is a hoax at the time of her death.

I will do that.If he wants to.Biscardi told him all about this information that I learned.

Most important are the claims coming from Biscardi about Patty Patterson hiring an attorney who will divulge the hoax and how it was done. This is coming from Biscardi and may well be nothing but lies, but I know that Biscardi is on friendly terms with Patty and may well be telling the truth.

I will learn whatever I can about this from Bob.
 
1. Does he believe in bigfoot?

No, he doesn't.

2, On exactly what date did filming take place?

Bob does not remember the exact date. Bob met Patterson in 1955 when he came to visit Bob's sister, Mary. Roger was 21 at the time. Gimlin he met when Gimlin was the Bartender at Bill's Tavern in Yakima. Gimlin and Heironimus used to ride their horses together on trails in the mountains around Yakima. It was on one of these rides in July or August 1967 that Gimlin said that Patterson was shooting a movie and need Heironimus to wear a suit.

Heironimus was at Bluff Creek a single night and was filmed the next day. Gimlin had Bob's horse Chico in California for eights days before bringing it back to Yakima.

3. Did the filming and track display occur on the same date?

If I asked Bob this, I would ask him if he remembers Patterson and Gimlin filming anything else while he was there. I don't think they would have.

4. Is there any evidence of the filming still in existance? (Props)

Other than the suit? What would you expect?

5. Can he accurately describe the type of suit he used in the recreation filming? We all know he actually did the recreation.

This one?

 
...Most important are the claims coming from Biscardi about Patty Patterson hiring an attorney who will divulge the hoax and how it was done. This is coming from Biscardi and may well be nothing but lies, but I know that Biscardi is on friendly terms with Patty and may well be telling the truth.

I will learn whatever I can about this from Bob.
Maybe I have been keeping up, I do remember that Patterson confession post now. I almost don't want to think about the Bigfoot Fallout™ if/when such a confession happens. I can see serious potential for comedy though. The finger pointing will get out of hand I'm sure. And Loren Coleman will claim he was the PGF's biggest skeptic all along. It will definitely be the end of Popular Bigfooting™ as we know it. Kit, you're making me anxious to read more of your interactions with BH.

ETA: Kit, in the 'second subject' picture above, do we know what brand/type/maker that suit was? It's similarity to the PGF suit is clear.
 
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Is this the evidence of Patterson faking the tracks mentioned above? Or is there more?

Yes, that's excellent. I encourage you to do that right now. Add to your signature the line about the fact that Bob Heironimus has a proven very close connection to Patterson and Gimlin as well as there being significant evidence that Roger faked Patty's tracks. I'm waiting for this change.




[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=314&pictureid=2615[/qimg]

Sweaty, you're not fooling anyone. All your squirming does nothing to distract from the fact that I am not asking you to address a single specific thing Bob has said about being Patty.

Let me put up my post you are trying so hard to evade reformatted to be more comprehensible to the eyes of Sweaty...



Phew! Typing Bigfoot fanatic is a pain in the butt!



This is fantastic. Yes, let's do this. Let's talk Patty tracks. I'm going to do this crazy thing right now. Let's call it a KK Frontside 180° Logic Flip With a Twist to Bigfoot Fanatic Faceplant 911 Call My Mom. Here goes...

You can't show that it's possible for the casts of Patty's showing morphologically very different left feet to actually come from one real animal foot, can you, Sweaty. All you can do is talk but you can't SHOW anything to disprove the evidence.

Oh my goodness, that was fun. Now let's address that load of fail that you just wrote. There's no reason whatsoever to continue making an extended trackway when they could have taken a short rout into the forest? You level a credulity amuses the heck out of me...

1) What are you talking about short route into the forest? Sweaty, man, that is not what they filmed! The PGF shows Patty walking off into the distance from behind. They have to make tracks for that.

2) Why would they make an extended trackway when a shorter one would be easier. Hmmm... Yes... Why would they make such an effort more believable. It's almost like they were trying to make people believe them...

Palm on the face.

Sweaty, you do raise a very interesting point about the tracks - there depths. Except, what you don't realize that this is one of the very factors that makes a hoax even more likely. You see, in their zeal for effect, they went too far. There's a post you've ignored that I kept linked to my post about the evidence of the tracks being hoaxed. The post was made by River and had an excellent article by the late, great Michael Dennett for the Skeptical Inquirer magazine.

Here again is River's post with a link to Dennett's article...



Gimlin admits he was riding Heironimus' horse, Chico. Gimlin told John Green that Chico weighed 12-1300 lbs and that he weighed about 165 lbs. How did Patty's big flat feet sink in deeper than almost 1500 lbs on four small hooves? Whaaa???

What Bob heironimus told me directly was that Roger and Bob had Chico for eight days. Eight days is plenty of time to fake Patty's tracks.
 
I can't really imagine anything that hasn't already been asked and answered by Heironimus.
What he had on his feet under the suit?
Was it Gimlin or Patterson who first approached him about wearing the suit?
Does he recall other suits? (other than the one he had on at Bluff Creek)
What are his recollections (if any) about Weitchpec.
Blaaaa!
Did he have his boots on? :D
 
Is this the evidence of Patterson faking the tracks mentioned above? Or is there more?

Below. Your post there, I mean. Casts being in shapes that look unconsistent with a real foot. The other being the late Michael Dennett's study of what indicates hoaxing of the tracks cast.
 
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