Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[laca]

To a large extent, the difference in life expectancy (about 25 to 30 years at birth) was due to a gigantonormous amount of infant death and, if one assume Matthew would have been in his mid-twenties at the time of Jesus' death, he would have been in his early 60ies by the time the Gospel (mis)attributed to him might, possibly, has been written and it would conceivable for Matthew to be alive at that time. Emperor Tiberius died at 77, after all.

Good point. Although emperors might be like the exception to the rule...

Of course 'conceivable' is in no way evidence that he did, let alone evidence that he wrote the gospel that Christians legends attribute to him.

Yeah, that too.

 

[laca]

WARNING: DOC threads 5 times more likely to cause facial bruising than airbags.

And on top of that, insurance doesn't pay for self-inflicted damages...

 

[kmortis]

That'd be argumentum ad authoritatum.
But then again, you have way more posts than I do which obviously makes you righter...

Correct. Now go write "KMo is righter than me" on the white board 15,000 times.

To a large extent, the difference in life expectancy (about 25 to 30 years at birth) was due to a gigantonormous amount of infant death and, if one assume Matthew would have been in his mid-twenties at the time of Jesus' death, he would have been in his early 60ies by the time the Gospel (mis)attributed to him might, possibly, has been written and it would conceivable for Matthew to be alive at that time. Emperor Tiberius died at 77, after all.
Of course 'conceivable' is in no way evidence that he did, let alone evidence that he wrote the gospel that Christians legends attribute to him.

The Source of All Knowledge has Matthew living for 15 years after the crucifixion.

Matthew, for 15 years, preached the Gospel in Hebrew to the Jewish community in Judea. Later in his ministry he would travel to Gentile nations and spread the Gospel to the Ethiopians, Macedonians, Persians, and Parthians. He is said to have died a natural death either in Ethiopia or in Macedonia. However Roman Catholic Church says he died a martyr on September 21 and of the Orthodox Church also says he died a martyr but on November 10.

 

[I Ratant]

L'il Abner's "Feelavision"... we really need that now, to reach into the monitor and slap some cob upside the haid!

 

[Simon39759]

Correct. Now go write "KMo is righter than me" on the white board 15,000 times.


The Source of All Knowledge has Matthew living for 15 years after the crucifixion.

Matthew, for 15 years, preached the Gospel in Hebrew to the Jewish community in Judea. Later in his ministry he would travel to Gentile nations and spread the Gospel to the Ethiopians, Macedonians, Persians, and Parthians. He is said to have died a natural death either in Ethiopia or in Macedonia. However Roman Catholic Church says he died a martyr on September 21 and of the Orthodox Church also says he died a martyr but on November 10.

Interesting.
So, the oral traditions that attribute the gospel's authorship to Matthew, also state that he wasn't alive anymore when it was written in 70 CE.
I wonder what Doc's reaction will be to this... Probably, some obfuscation, and from now on he will reject the 70CE writing date...

 

[Akhenaten]

Akhenaten, in reference to all your posts not just the quoted one you have succeeded where so many others have failed.
I am now a Theist

You are my god and I worship thee

Hear ye then the praise of Re Hor-akhti, Rejoicing on the Horizon, in His Name as Shu Who Is in the Aten-disc, living forever and ever; the living great Aten who is in jubilee, lord of all that the Aten encircles, lord of heaven, lord of Earth, lord of the House of Aten in Akhet-Aten

Also the praise of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, who lives on truth, the Lord of the Two Lands: Nepher-kheperu-Re Wa-en-Re; the Son of Re, who lives on truth, the Lord of Diadems: Akh-en-Aten, long in his lifetime.

Also the praise of the Chief Wife of the King, his beloved, the Lady of the Two Lands: Nepher-nepheru-Aten Nephert-iti, living, healthy, and youthful forever and ever. ​

Thus speaks the Fan-Bearer on the Right Hand of the King

Eye​

​

​

To Her Dark Star

Thou appearest beautifully on the horizon of heaven,
Thou living Star, the beginning of life!
When thou art risen on the eastern horizon,
Thou hast filled every land with thy beauty.
Thou art gracious, great, glistening, and high over every land;
Thy rays encompass the lands to the limit of all that thou hast made:
As thou art Re, thou reachest to the end of them;
Thou subduest them for thy beloved son.
Though thou art far away, thy rays are on earth;
Though thou art in their faces, no one knows thy going.​

Re-Horakty Nepherkheperure Waenre Akhenaten

​

How come posts like these usually happen when I leave for two or more days. Isn't there any other threads you could be in?

What a sad little man.

 

[I Ratant]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/209954b868f6786ce4.gif[/qimg]

Hear ye then the praise of Re Hor-akhti, Rejoicing on the Horizon, in His Name as Shu Who Is in the Aten-disc, living forever and ever; the living great Aten who is in jubilee, lord of all that the Aten encircles, lord of heaven, lord of Earth, lord of the House of Aten in Akhet-Aten

Also the praise of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, who lives on truth, the Lord of the Two Lands: Nepher-kheperu-Re Wa-en-Re; the Son of Re, who lives on truth, the Lord of Diadems: Akh-en-Aten, long in his lifetime.

Also the praise of the Chief Wife of the King, his beloved, the Lady of the Two Lands: Nepher-nepheru-Aten Nephert-iti, living, healthy, and youthful forever and ever. ​

Thus speaks the Fan-Bearer on the Right Hand of the King
Eye​

​

​

To Her Dark Star
Thou appearest beautifully on the horizon of heaven,
Thou living Star, the beginning of life!
When thou art risen on the eastern horizon,
Thou hast filled every land with thy beauty.
Thou art gracious, great, glistening, and high over every land;
Thy rays encompass the lands to the limit of all that thou hast made:
As thou art Re, thou reachest to the end of them;
Thou subduest them for thy beloved son.
Though thou art far away, thy rays are on earth;
Though thou art in their faces, no one knows thy going.​

Re-Horakty Nepherkheperure Waenre Akhenaten

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/209954b868f86039c0.gif[/qimg]​

.
Something seems lost in the translation.
What's it like in the original?

 

[Akhenaten]

.
Something seems lost in the translation.
What's it like in the original?

It's all just squiggly lines and little pictures of birds and stuff. Really boring, so I took some 'liberties'.






Editor's Note:

It's actually adapted from the Great Hymn to the Aten, by Pharaoh Akhenaten, and the introduction by Eye, FBOTRHOTK

It's a cornerstone of true monotheism, as opposed to the the sick and twisted perversion it has become in the hands of certain apologists.​

 

[Waterman]

I"ve already responded to Waterman on Simon Greenleaf (a founder of Harvard Law School). If someone wants to learn about Simon Greenleaf, the long article written by him I brought in should satisfy them. Or read his book about the New Testament authors and the subject of evidence.

In my first post re: Greenleaf, I had identified him and what appeared to be his argument from the Ancient DOcuments Rule (per wikipedia) and speculated where he may have erred.

You then challenged me to accrualy read his words and see if I still held that position (you however did not provide any logical counter argument).

I did read his words as did Simon. We pointed out numerous areas were he made a number of logical fallacies as well as pointed out that the same arguement could be made to validate ANY religion that has a long standing written tradition.

You have yet to respond to this second set of posts by myself (who focused on the Ancient Document Rule) and Simon (who gave an overview of the most glaring issues he observed). Greenleafs argument goes undefended. As always for you to defend his argument you need to counter the argument made by Simon and myself not post additional quotes by Greenleaf, academic or legal credential or support of others.

A truely logical argument stands on its own. It is not need the props of famous people, quotations, degrees or ancient traditions.

 

[Elizabeth I]

To Her Dark Star

Thou appearest beautifully on the horizon of heaven,
Thou living Star, the beginning of life!
When thou art risen on the eastern horizon,
Thou hast filled every land with thy beauty.
Thou art gracious, great, glistening, and high over every land;
Thy rays encompass the lands to the limit of all that thou hast made:
As thou art Re, thou reachest to the end of them;
Thou subduest them for thy beloved son.
Though thou art far away, thy rays are on earth;
Though thou art in their faces, no one knows thy going.​

Re-Horakty Nepherkheperure Waenre Akhenaten

Ahem. I believe you wrote this to me in your birthday thread.

O ficklest of pharaohs!

 

[I Ratant]

Ahem. I believe you wrote this to me in your birthday thread.

O ficklest of pharaohs!

.
Pharaohs tended to be family guys... as in keeping it in the family, by marrying sisters.
You his sister, you got priority!

 

[Akhenaten]

Ahem. I believe you wrote this to me in your birthday thread.

O ficklest of pharaohs!

Pharaohs tended to be family guys... as in keeping it in the family, by marrying sisters.
You his sister, you got priority!*

A small copypasta error, Your Majesty.

Here is the verse intended to celebrate your Gloriosity:

Appearing, shining, withdrawing or aproaching,
Thou madest millions of forms of thyself alone.
Cities, towns, fields, road, and river -
Every eye beholds thee over against them,
For thou art as the Aten of the day over the earth.

Thou art in my heart,
And there is no other that knows thee;
Save thy brother Nepher-kheperu-Re Wa-en-Re,
For thou hast made him well-versed in thy plans and in thy strength.​

* Nice save!
Cheers mate, and I owe you one

 

[Elizabeth I]

Ahem. I believe you wrote this to me in your birthday thread.

O ficklest of pharaohs!

.
Pharaohs tended to be family guys... as in keeping it in the family, by marrying sisters.
You his sister, you got priority!

A small copypasta error, Your Majesty.

Here is the verse intended to celebrate your Gloriosity:

Appearing, shining, withdrawing or aproaching,
Thou madest millions of forms of thyself alone.
Cities, towns, fields, road, and river -
Every eye beholds thee over against them,
For thou art as the Aten of the day over the earth.

Thou art in my heart,
And there is no other that knows thee;
Save thy brother Nepher-kheperu-Re Wa-en-Re,
For thou hast made him well-versed in thy plans and in thy strength.​

* Nice save!
Cheers mate, and I owe you one


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/209954b7bb91e6c88e.gif[/qimg]

 

[Simon39759]

A truely logical argument stands on its own. It is not need the props of famous people, quotations, degrees or ancient traditions.

Or, to put it another way, a good argument should give credit to its author rather than needing its author's credit to bolster it...

 

[DOC]

No, it was not, two examples do not a rule make. The Roman administration, primitive as you may find their civilization, made quite extensive records...

Then how come there is no known signature of Julius Caesar in existence. You would think an emperor who controlled much of the world would be signing a lot of documents, authorizations, and decrees.

 

[Akhenaten]

When you command the Legions, DOC, your word is authority enough.

So , how many autographs did Jebus leave for us?

Also, Nimrod.

 

[DOC]

I think very relevant, some people in here have complained that the gospels were not written contemporary to Christ's life. My last post has shown passing along information by writing was the exception rather than the rule before 70 ad. 70 ad, was right around the time scholars say Matthew, Mark, and Luke wrote their gospels.

70AD? I thought you believe Jeebus died at thirty-something... ...

And therefore didn't live in Jesus' time...

70 CE would correspond to the writing of the Gospel of Matthew.
Of course, the date for this writing range from around 65-70 all the way to the early second century, Doc authoritatively pick about the absolute earliest date he can get away with. It's not random, of course, it's a deliberate choice to make the traditional authorship appear more likely.
It's not really honest, of course, to do so...

Actually there are good reasons to believe most of the gospels were written before 70 C.E.

From the article: When were the gospels written and by whom?
by Matt Slick

"None of the gospels mention the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. This is significant because Jesus had prophesied concerning the temple when He said "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down," (Luke 21:6, see also Matt. 24:1; Mark 13:1). This prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and burned the temple. The gold in the temple melted down between the stone walls and the Romans took the walls apart, stone by stone, to get the gold. Such an obvious fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy most likely would have been recorded as such by the gospel writers who were fond of mentioning fulfillment of prophecy if they had been written after 70 A.D. Also, if the gospels were fabrications of mythical events then anything to bolster the Messianic claims -- such as the destruction of the temple as Jesus said -- would surely have been included. But, it was not included suggesting that the gospels (at least Matthew, Mark, and Luke) were written before 70 A.D.

http://www.carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom

 

[Akhenaten]

Back to that nonsense are we. Are you incapable of learning from past mistakes, DOC?

 

[Lothian]

Then how come there is no known signature of Julius Caesar in existence. You would think an emperor who controlled much of the world would be signing a lot of documents and authorizations.

Irrelevant, You may wish to argue that the lack of a signature by Caesar means that Ceasar did not exist. However I suspect that you arguing that we know Caesar existed and have no signature so anyone without a signature, e.g. King Hamlet, must exist.

I am willing however to be corrected and have you explain how any of this is evidence that the NT writers told the truth when talking about magic zombie man.

 

[Akhenaten]

Ohnoes! Two respondents! The attack-the-messenger mode is heating up.

DOC must have brought in something important.

I wonder where he left it.