Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[katy_did]

I'm amazed by the persistence of the thread gymnastics. Even after the report is released, people who believe in Amanda's innocence are still willing to nitpick and play the same mental gymnastics they require to be safe in their little belief.

The good thing is that the report rejected most of the prosecution's crazy mental gymnastics and focused on the forensics, which is most likely what the appeal will come down to. At least we don't need to discuss ludicrous premeditated orgy/rape/murder games between strangers organized in some unspecified way at some unspecified time because two roommates argued over the cleaning any more! Phew, that was making me dizzy.

 

[katy_did]

The second of Frank's posts is up at Perugia Shock. This bit is a surprise:

The nature of the wounds, the not submissive character of Meredith who was trained in self-defense, and the fact that she she was dressed, proves that the assailant couldn't be just one. Actions, like tearing and cutting off the bra, needed the use of both hands. So if someone was cutting the bra someone else should have been keeping her still.

While Rudi was trying to undress her, Raffaele grabbed the bra, then he pulled his knife and cut it off. Meredith kept fighting so he ended up with stabbing her on the right side.

So Massei rejected the theory the bra clasp was cut later, then - and possibly also the body having been moved hours after death? [ETA: Yep, Massei thinks they just covered the body after death (if Frank is right, obviously).]

Oh, and the way they reconciled the carrying of the knife with lack of premeditation?

But why was Amanda carrying The Knife? Raffaele was a knife lover so he probably suggested to her to always carry one in her purse, especially since she was walking late at night through unsafe streets.
Then, instead of dispose of it, they thought it would be better replacing it in the drawer, since the landlord could have noticed it was missing.

LOL. The theory is that Raffaele told Amanda to always carry a kitchen knife in her purse?! That's very weak.

 

[stilicho]

So Massei rejected the theory the bra clasp was cut later, then - and possibly also the body having been moved hours after death? [ETA: Yep, Massei thinks they just covered the body after death (if Frank is right, obviously).]

Don't get too excited. Frank's posts are merely translations of excerpts from a summary. There's nothing in there (yet) about diminished capacity in any of the three. To the contrary, all care and attention has been paid to the deliberate nature of the murder and the subsequent distractions to the investigation.

It is laudable that--even from this brief translation of excerpts of a summary--clear reason won over emotion in arriving at the verdict. I look forward to any specific statements from any of the real lawyers assigned to their appeals. So far there has been nothing apart from what you'd expect (from Maori).

 

[katy_did]

Don't get too excited. Frank's posts are merely translations of excerpts from a summary. There's nothing in there (yet) about diminished capacity in any of the three. To the contrary, all care and attention has been paid to the deliberate nature of the murder and the subsequent distractions to the investigation.

It is laudable that--even from this brief translation of excerpts of a summary--clear reason won over emotion in arriving at the verdict. I look forward to any specific statements from any of the real lawyers assigned to their appeals. So far there has been nothing apart from what you'd expect (from Maori).

Yes, everything at this stage is very uncertain, of course. I did notice in the early reports that there was no mention of the body having been moved (in contrast to reports of the burglary being staged, for instance) so I wondered then whether they'd rejected that part of the prosecution's theory. What Frank writes does suggest that, but it's impossible to know for sure at this stage.

Hopefully the entire thing will be available online before too long, then we can get a clearer picture of what it says!

 

[shuttlt]

They wouldn't identify the laptop (well they might, but that's not really the point), they'd identify Guede as the one who sold it to them. Selling it would mean creating witnesses who could've connected Guede to the crime, and it would've blown his 'date' story right out of the water. As for the cards, they would've traced the use of them (if they'd been used to withdraw cash, for instance) but not who had used them, and perhaps not even when.

If he withdrew cash they would know where and when very quickly, surely the bank would alert them? He would have to find a cash machine, or shop away from CCTV, but where he would not be remembered. If he didn't go to some automated payment system there would be the risk of somebody noticing the female name on the card. He might have taken the risk I suppose but it would be high risk. Where ever he used it the police would be onto rapidly and would be checking any CCTV to find him.

But certainly, if Guede had used them to withdraw cash a day or two later, there would've been nothing to definitively link him to their use.

Depends how careful and or lucky he was. Within a day or two at most the bank would be onto the cards and the police would be tracking down any use that was made of them.

He wouldn't have tried to sell the phones. He probably took them to see if he could get access to her bank account (hence the call to the bank), and because if he left them in her room, one of her roommates might call them and hear them ringing.

Is stealing somebodies phone really a known way of accessing somebodies bank account? He bank must be more advance than mine, or she must have had a fancy phone.

And also, he may simply have taken them because he was going through her purse/pockets (probably to look for the front door keys - Guede said they were in her purse, which seems an odd detail for him to know if he didn't take them?) and the phones were there, and small enough to put in his pockets. Might be a mistake to presume he was thinking totally rationally about it.

I agree it could be a stupid mistake.

 

[shuttlt]

LOL. The theory is that Raffaele told Amanda to always carry a kitchen knife in her purse?! That's very weak.

Again we have to remember that this is the briefest of summaries translated in haste by a good, but not perfect, speaker of English. Who knows how strongly they are putting this, or where the emphasis is?

 

[shuttlt]

At least we don't need to discuss ludicrous premeditated orgy/rape/murder games between strangers organized in some unspecified way at some unspecified time because two roommates argued over the cleaning any more! Phew, that was making me dizzy.

Did the prosecution really claim that it was all arranged, agreed and organized beforehand it just went a little too far?

 

[shuttlt]

Wait a mo. What would somebody do with access to her bank account? Transfer money? Where to? Surely that would be more traceable than anything. Whoever's bank account it was would have the police on them as quick as anything. If it wasn't Rudy's bank account I'm sure whoever did own it would be very grateful to him for all the attention. Even if somebody has managed to set the account up with fake details, they surely won't thank him for bringing the police down on it for a few thousand euro and in any case you'd have the same problem as the laptop of having to deal with people who might (or in this case would definitely) link him to the crime.

 

[stilicho]

Yes, everything at this stage is very uncertain, of course. I did notice in the early reports that there was no mention of the body having been moved (in contrast to reports of the burglary being staged, for instance) so I wondered then whether they'd rejected that part of the prosecution's theory. What Frank writes does suggest that, but it's impossible to know for sure at this stage.

Hopefully the entire thing will be available online before too long, then we can get a clearer picture of what it says!

PMF will have a redacted version and it appears it may be about six to eight weeks. This is at the bare minimum considering it's two sides of over 400 pages of information.

This summary is focused on the grounds for the verdict (as is the entire document). The full version will contain more specific information, of course. The staged burglary is an important part of the narrative while the position of the body (or other things like the lamp) are less important.

I am rather impressed by this narrative since it fits closer to other cases of spiralling violence leading to murder (qv Virk) where participants choose sides in a dispute. I still don't buy into the drug-induced haze but these people are professionals and I am not.

 

[lane99]

///////Originally Posted by lane99
It certainly is interesting to see how anxious some are to dismiss scenarios involving Rudy Guilty- which are known to be not uncommon- as implausible and unbelievable; while at the same time somehow managing to wrap their supposedly "skeptical" minds around a prosection scenario which, if true, is so unprecedented no one can offer a single parallel case.

Not the kind of reasoning that it is in the best tradition of JREF, I would say. But, nevertheless, fascinating in it's own way for the type of bias and underlying motives such thinking might reveal. ///////

My dog in this fight is called "Truth"., My bias leans towards the search for truth. Truth is my motive. My thoughts pursue the truth...

Well said, Pictor. By the way, where do you stand on motherhood and apple pie?

Incidentally, this exact quote that you wrote I believe I've read before. Can't remember where. Might have been a Scientology website. They're big on truth too, to hear them tell it.

 

[Open Inquiry]

Just joining in... How is the knife at this point included in the evidence? It tested negative for blood and any DNA found on it (except for contamination) if it had been at the cottage at all, could have been from being at cottage, rather than from being used in the attack.

 

[Dan O.]

The story so far is that the knife belongs to Raffaele's landlord and she must count the cutlery every month when she picks up the rent because she would have noticed it missing. Raffaele told Amanda to keep this 12" kitchen knife in her purse and they routinely practiced brandishing it around town (where incidentally it is illegal to carry knives on the street). Because the only way that the knife could have been contaminated with Meredith's DNA is for Amanda to have touched Meredith and then walked all the way to Raffaele's apartment and touched the knife without touching anything else in between, contamination is impossible (not to mention that there has never been contamination in the lab). This knife was picked out of a drawer containing many knives because the officer thought it looked shiny. When the forensics expert examined the knife there were visible streaks across it. Using a powerful light, the expert found something in a scratch that was so small it was only visible when the light was just right. There wasn't enough of Meredith's DNA on the knife to save any for the defense to test but some was taken to test for blood which was sure to come back negative because the sample was so small. The run was repeated so the result is confirmed. The lack of all registry data that the defense asked for to independently review the result is irrelevant. Controls? Who need controls.

At least this is the story that the prosecution and judges tell. Perhaps there will be something to make sense of it when the full report is available.

BTW, welcome to JREF.

 

[shuttlt]

Controls? Who need controls.

Dan O. could you point me in the direction of your source for the lack of controls? As you may have noticed I've been making something of a nuisance of myself at Perugia-shock trying to run this claim down. So far I've had no luck, just people on forums and blogs quoting other people on other forums on other blogs.

 

[stilicho]

Dan O. could you point me in the direction of your source for the lack of controls? As you may have noticed I've been making something of a nuisance of myself at Perugia-shock trying to run this claim down. So far I've had no luck, just people on forums and blogs quoting other people on other forums on other blogs.

Don't bother.

I hate to say it but Dan O's *********

Edited by Locknar: 

Breach of Rule 0 edited.

 

[stilicho]

Perhaps there will be something to make sense of it when the full report is available.

Dan O: Your sweet little angel will be a prisoner for a long time. Give it up.

She's going to look like Kelly Ellard in a couple years anyhow. Prison does that to you.

Lovely.

 

[shuttlt]

I've been thinking about the Innocence Project open letter. Hard to reconcile their views on the blood, contamination, footprints etc... with the Motivations report. Either there are good grounds for the appeal, the Innocence Project were talking out of their arses, or they need to slap wherever was providing them with the information they based their letter on.

 

[Open Inquiry]

Thanks, Dan.

My question is from a different angle. As a knife with no blood on it, and not brought for the purpose of a premeditated murder, on what grounds legally can it be considered? The DNA could, if the knife was at the cottage (which I don't think it was), have gotten on there from being at the cottage since Meredith lived there.


Side issue from the above (the above is my main question) ...

Contamination in the lab still remains probable due to the LCN DNA style testing, according to my understanding. As well, the knife tested negative for DNA and was overridden to achieve a positive result. Those stops are there due to the threat of contamination and they were overridden in the way that is considered the risk.

 

[stilicho]

I've been thinking about the Innocence Project open letter. Hard to reconcile their views on the blood, contamination, footprints etc... with the Motivations report. Either there are good grounds for the appeal, the Innocence Project were talking out of their arses, or they need to slap wherever was providing them with the information they based their letter on.

The Innocence Project is largely an American lobby group, ShuttIt. Hundreds of Americans, mostly minorities, are sent to their deaths each month. Italy doesn't have capital punishment so they're out of their element.

Against the American institutionalised killing machine is arrayed an Italian justice system that includes automatic appeals, no death sentence, and an explanation.

 

[stilicho]

...a knife with no blood on it...

Cite?

 

[Open Inquiry]

The knife was tested negative for blood.

...Are you saying it was tested positive for blood? I have not read that.