• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Some dweeb nobody knows whines about food in America

Or they could simply hold a view that "locally sourced" food is a good choice to make and were arguing for that point, whether Jamie argued that or not wouldn't change those arguments. However those criticising him for holding such a view (and of course my listening may have wandered and I may have missed it) would simply be wrong and I'd expect to see such folk re-evaluate their criticism and retract at least that part of it.

Oh I have no problem with that. As I have argued from the beginning, the "prepare local food" line didn't make sense. I'm glad he didn't say that.



ETA: And "apologists" for what?

For him. As in, "He had great success in England and knows what he is talking about, so if he said it, it must be right." Followed by, "invent reasons why it is right"
 
http://www.localharvest.org/csa/

There is a place to learn about being able to get locally sourced food. My wife and I own a share in a local farm. It's great. We get a basket of food once a week. It's local, in season, healthy, and quite tasty. Owning a share means if the harvest is bigger we get more, or if it's slimmer we get a little less. We are along for the ride. The one we are affiliated with also has honey, eggs, plants, and more besides just the produce. It beats the hell out of what we'd get at the nearby supermarket and the price is comparable. I would highly recommend it.

I don't think this counts as an apology for anything relating to Jamie Oliver. It seems like a good idea, and it is the kind of good idea that seems to come up over and over again for both health, the economy, and the community.
 
The biggest problem with the school lunch program is not about the "healthy" function, it is the QUALITY.
I mean, I love green beans, but opening a can and then boiling the hell out of it makes a mushy, inedible mess--and that is the way they do it.
It costs big bucks, by comparison, to bring in fresh vegies, properly clean and prep them, and the laws insist that they be cooked THOROUGHLY! (over-cooked)
Raw veggies? Fuggedaboudit-you can get sick from those things!
Fish sticks (breaded and pre-fried) are much, much cheaper than fresh fish, and all they have is ovens, anyway (in most places), and mystery meat can bee cooked till its a hockey puck and nobody gets sick from the bugs residing in it, then. Same for chicken...
And most of the food is "government Surplus"--it used to be the stuff the g'mt bought to keep the prices up. Don't know what it means now...
 
My issue is that "locally grown" is just one of those buzz catch phrases that sounds good but is essentially meaningless. It's impossible from a practical point of view out here because 95%+ of the farms in California are now owned by huge corporations that would laugh at anyone trying to make small orders for some school or local farmers market. You want their stuff? Fine, order it in huge batches from their central processing facility nine months to a year ahead of time like everyone else.

Now we do have Farmers Markets but they have the exact same stuff as the supermarkets since they have to use the same suppliers. So, in essence, the only way a school could use locally grown food would be for the school to buy some land and open it's own farm. Which I don't see happening because viable farm land does not come up for sale much unless some developer offers an obscene amount of money so he can build homes on it.
 
whats wrong with American food, I love the cultural impact food has had on the rest of the world, with French Fries, Hamburgers and Frankenfurters who needs anything non American in their digestive tract.
:p
This place though
http://www.heartattackgrill.com/
I have my doubts about
:D
 
My issue is that "locally grown" is just one of those buzz catch phrases that sounds good but is essentially meaningless. It's impossible from a practical point of view out here because 95%+ of the farms in California are now owned by huge corporations that would laugh at anyone trying to make small orders for some school or local farmers market. You want their stuff? Fine, order it in huge batches from their central processing facility nine months to a year ahead of time like everyone else.

Now we do have Farmers Markets but they have the exact same stuff as the supermarkets since they have to use the same suppliers. So, in essence, the only way a school could use locally grown food would be for the school to buy some land and open it's own farm. Which I don't see happening because viable farm land does not come up for sale much unless some developer offers an obscene amount of money so he can build homes on it.
Seems to me that you're taking what might be the case in California, and applying it to the entire USA when it may not be applicable... There are quite a number of smaller farms in my state -- they are not owned by huge corporations -- and purchasing solely from them can more than easily stock my entire produce need, and then some, with quite a bit of diversity.

You're also making some assumptions about supermarkets and where their supply of produce comes from -- have you ever actually looked at where tomatoes come from when you're buying them in November? How about grapes? Lettuce? Cucumbers? Bell peppers? One of my local grocery chains prides itself on using local growers instead of national (or international, as the case may be) supply chains, and in the course of proving that labels every produce bin quite clearly with exactly where the item was grown. In summer, 90% of the produce has US (primarily WA, OR, ID, or CA, which are local for me). In winter, however, that percentage shifts drastically to a good 75% or more of produce items being from Chile or Mexico simply because the growing season here in North America limits what can be grown year round. Sure, the cabbage and potatoes are local year round, but tomatoes, cucumbers, bell peppers? Nope.

How much fossil fuel do you think gets spent shipping tomatoes from Chile to NW WA? Hm? And how early were those tomatoes picked to avoid them going bad on the journey? How much nutrition from those tomatoes was lost due to being plucked off the vine 2 or 3 weeks early, when they were still mostly greenish? Do you know?

In addition to that, do you know where schools currently purchase their produce from, and in what form? Remember, we're talking about the USA school system here -- that's the same USA that had ketchup classified as a vegetable so that schools could have an easier time meeting "nutritional standards."

This blog: http://fedupwithschoollunch.blogspot.com/ is a bit of an eye opener about what's being served to our children for lunch. Take a look at how much of that is pre-processed, preservative laden, high sugar content, pre-packaged, food from FSM knows where. Are you really going to argue that those school lunches couldn't do with a little bit of locally grown fresh produce to make them A) more healthy, B) tastier, C) cheaper, and D) more appetizing?

School lunch is no longer what it was when we were kids -- i.e. reasonably healthy full meals.
 
My issue is that "locally grown" is just one of those buzz catch phrases that sounds good but is essentially meaningless. It's impossible from a practical point of view out here because 95%+ of the farms in California are now owned by huge corporations that would laugh at anyone trying to make small orders for some school or local farmers market. You want their stuff? Fine, order it in huge batches from their central processing facility nine months to a year ahead of time like everyone else.

Another problem with the "serve local food" is that it means that kids in the upper midwest go without fruits and vegetables for the winter.

The local markets around here close up at Halloween (and there is very slim pickings by then) and won't open again until March. It's really hard to grow fruits and vegetables when the the ground is frozen and there is a foot of snow on it.

Serve local food means 1) stock up on potatoes and grains for the winter and 2) eat meat. So healthy!
 
Another problem with the "serve local food" is that it means that kids in the upper midwest go without fruits and vegetables for the winter.

The local markets around here close up at Halloween (and there is very slim pickings by then) and won't open again until March. It's really hard to grow fruits and vegetables when the the ground is frozen and there is a foot of snow on it.

Serve local food means 1) stock up on potatoes and grains for the winter and 2) eat meat. So healthy!
Locally procured, whatever. It does not matter. You are not going to turn a $7.35/hour "Cafeteria Lady" into anything resembling a chef.
And school districts cannot afford (taxpayers won't approve) anything much more elaborate than opening big cans of "food" and heating them in a pot.
 
Locally procured, whatever. It does not matter. You are not going to turn a $7.35/hour "Cafeteria Lady" into anything resembling a chef.And school districts cannot afford (taxpayers won't approve) anything much more elaborate than opening big cans of "food" and heating them in a pot.


Yet in the UK that is exactly what he did manage.
 
Imagine for a moment what "eat locally grown" could actually mean. Kids could learn how to set up gardens. If they are in an urban environment, that means setting up planter boxes. It would mean learning things scientifically. Why does food grow better in various types of soil, how to keep soil pH balanced,what is the life cycle of growing. These are things the kids learn in science. How cool would it be if they learned science, by doing it on a larger scale.

Then how neat would it be if we then combined what they grew in with nutrition classes. How to balance grown foods, with other ingredients like starch and proteins, to create wholesome meals. And if we throw in some cooking classes, they might learn the best methods for preparing foods, so they might actually enjoy what they are eating.

It is a full circle of education. Science, nutrition and cooking. You can even throwin English and math into the equation if you add in how to read, write and work from a recipe.
 
Last edited:
Yet in the UK that is exactly what he did manage.

I'm glad. But it's not going to happen here.

How much did your taxes increase when your local schools in the UK adopted this scheme?

ETA: Did you completely ignore my earlier statement about how communities in the US often let their schools slowly fall to pieces (both figuratively and literally) rather than approving a tax increase to pay for new books/facilities/programs?
 
Last edited:
Imagine for a moment what "eat locally grown" could actually mean. Kids could learn how to set up gardens. If they are in an urban environment, that means setting up planter boxes. It would mean learning things scientifically. Why does food grow better in various types of soil, how to keep soil pH balanced,what is the life cycle of growing. These are things the kids learn in science. How cool would it be if they learned science, by doing it on a larger scale.

Then how neat would it be if we then combined what they grew in with nutrition classes. How to balance grown foods, with other ingredients like starch and proteins, to create wholesome meals. And if we throw in some cooking classes, they might learn the best methods for preparing foods, so they might actually enjoy what they are eating.

It is a full circle of education. Science, nutrition and cooking. You can even throwin English and math into the equation if you add in how to read, write and work from a recipe.

Will it include a calculation of how many "planter boxes" are going to be needed for that student to feed himself for 1 meal a day, 5 days a week for 9 months?
 
Seems to me that you're taking what might be the case in California, and applying it to the entire USA when it may not be applicable... There are quite a number of smaller farms in my state -- they are not owned by huge corporations -- and purchasing solely from them can more than easily stock my entire produce need, and then some, with quite a bit of diversity.

Well, I'm only talking about things locally. I wouldn't presume to know how things are elsewhere.

You're also making some assumptions about supermarkets and where their supply of produce comes from -- have you ever actually looked at where tomatoes come from when you're buying them in November? How about grapes? Lettuce? Cucumbers? Bell peppers?

If it's November then they probably come from the Southern Hemisphere.

One of my local grocery chains prides itself on using local growers instead of national (or international, as the case may be) supply chains, and in the course of proving that labels every produce bin quite clearly with exactly where the item was grown.

Well, fine. It's nice that they have the luxury to be able to do that.

How much fossil fuel do you think gets spent shipping tomatoes from Chile to NW WA? Hm? And how early were those tomatoes picked to avoid them going bad on the journey? How much nutrition from those tomatoes was lost due to being plucked off the vine 2 or 3 weeks early, when they were still mostly greenish? Do you know?

I do know that I am thankful for globalization allowing me to have a BLT in January.

In addition to that, do you know where schools currently purchase their produce from, and in what form? Remember, we're talking about the USA school system here -- that's the same USA that had ketchup classified as a vegetable so that schools could have an easier time meeting "nutritional standards."

That I do know since my dad was the union head for that department at my high school. They contract with Schwans and Swanson who provide bulk delivery to large institutions like schools and prisons. They procure their food from multinational suppliers in large batch orders that they put out a year ahead of time. This allows them to hedge prices in case a devastating frost hits Chile or something.

This blog: http://fedupwithschoollunch.blogspot.com/ is a bit of an eye opener about what's being served to our children for lunch. Take a look at how much of that is pre-processed, preservative laden, high sugar content, pre-packaged, food from FSM knows where. Are you really going to argue that those school lunches couldn't do with a little bit of locally grown fresh produce to make them A) more healthy, B) tastier, C) cheaper, and D) more appetizing?

I'm just wondering how a school in California can get locally produced produce. I mean it might be possible if they find one of the few family owned farms left but it would be super expensive as the exorbitant prices in what few real farmers markets that do exist out here can attest (farmers market prices are two to three times the supermarket price).

School lunch is no longer what it was when we were kids -- i.e. reasonably healthy full meals.
Eh, like all the other non-poor kids I had to pack a lunch so I don't really know if there is a difference. I do know the lunches I packed for myself were always balanced and healthy.
 
Will it include a calculation of how many "planter boxes" are going to be needed for that student to feed himself for 1 meal a day, 5 days a week for 9 months?

Is all they are going to eat is plant material and herbs? Veggies are only one part of a balanced diet. Though calculating how much food is needed to feed one student is an interesting idea. If you take into account stomach size for different age groups you could work into the equation portion sizes. So yes. More math.
 
Is all they are going to eat is plant material and herbs?

I would hope they would have fruit, too (is that what you mean by "plant material"?).

And grains, although grains will store. Will they have to grind their own flour?

My 15 mo old can eat 20 raspberries or 10 strawberries at a meal or an orange or pear or banana, in addition to veggies, carbs, and meat. What would it take to grow that?
 
Is all they are going to eat is plant material and herbs? Veggies are only one part of a balanced diet.

So how many cows is the student going to have to milk and butcher to learn about that part of the process - and will it be enough to feed him for the aforementioned time period?
 
So how many cows is the student going to have to milk and butcher to learn about that part of the process - and will it be enough to feed him for the aforementioned time period?

Not everything has to be hands on. But that would make a great word problem. Given x number of oz in a portion of beef (this differs with age), how many portions of meat would you get from y lbs of beef. Same with milk.
 
I would hope they would have fruit, too (is that what you mean by "plant material"?).

And grains, although grains will store. Will they have to grind their own flour?

My 15 mo old can eat 20 raspberries or 10 strawberries at a meal or an orange or pear or banana, in addition to veggies, carbs, and meat. What would it take to grow that?

Plant material= anything you can grow in soil. Herbs, flowers, spice plants, fruits, vegetables.

This isn't an exercise in you have to grow your own food in order to eat. It is one suggestion, that is actually working in schools, to get kids interested in food. It isn't just your textbook health class of what nutrition is. Kids like learning via hands on methods. If you could hands on get them into the garden, growing things, it could lead into a appreciation for food. If it is an integrated part of learning then there are many different disciplines that can be involved other than what's for lunch. Even if a plant dies or doesn't grow at all, it's good fodder for learning.
 
I'm curious, and I see we've got a lot of friends from "across the pond" here: is it easy to obtain locally grown food in the UK? I know there's a big push to buy locally grown food, because not only are you supporting local business, there's a theory that says the food will be more suited to your biology because it was grown in the same environment in which you live in. (i.e. lettuce grown in Texas would be better for me than lettuce grown in California). I live in a major metropolitan area, and the only regular farmer's markets I'm aware of are thirty miles in either direction of me.

Someone else mentioned that healthy eating gets skewed a lot because one expert may say nuts are bad for you, another will say you should eat nothing but nuts but stay away from swede, ad nauseum. That's why there are so many ridiculous fad diets out there. Even the Federally recognized food pyramid isn't good enough for some people.

I read something the other day about a new 'eating disorder' called Orthorexia, which basically entails an obsession with healthy eating. The woman discussed in the article is on a raw food diet and weighs all of 80 lbs because she barely eats anything. I personally want to just call this anorexia, and don't believe it needs to be qualified seperately.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom