Obama and Dems to go it alone on health-care reform, if GOP refuses to compromise

[The Painter]

what happens in the next two weeks will really decide the fate of health-care reform in the USA.

When have I heard that before? Last March, then last May, then last June, then last September, and October. Yeah I thought I heard that before.

now, if polls are done after the plan comes out, at close to 50% or more support the plan, then I will support the Dems moving forward and passing it through reconciliation.

happy? thought not.

I would be happy if a poll comes out and says more than 50% DON'T support it and YOU would then not support it. You would support the will of the people.Can you do that? Thought not.

 

[Thunder]

I would be happy if a poll comes out and says more than 50% DON'T support it and YOU would then not support it. You would support the will of the people.Can you do that? Thought not.

you're quite rude.

if after Obama releases his final plan and the Dems agree it will be the plan, three reliable polls come out showing a good majority of Americans do not want this plan, than I too will suggest the Dems not push it through...and instead get more Republican contribution to it.

will YOU support the Dems pass it if 51% or more of Americans support it?

will YOU?

 

[applecorped]

 

[willhaven]

Not to any significant extent.

At the end of the day any health insurance premiums paid have to cover the money spent on health care. And health care costs are increasing at a rate far higher than inflation.

How do you think an exchange pool for health insurance will lower the cost of health care?

The pool is a part of the puzzle. The public option is another.

A bigger pool with more options with companies bidding for large numbers of people to cover sounds like a good way to find reasonable insurance.

Driving down the cost of care itself isn't directly tied to the pool, but it is a good way to find a more reasonable existing plan.

Bringing down the cost of care itself in a direct way is a lot more complicated.

 

[WildCat]

The pool is a part of the puzzle. The public option is another.

A bigger pool with more options with companies bidding for large numbers of people to cover sounds like a good way to find reasonable insurance.

Driving down the cost of care itself isn't directly tied to the pool, but it is a good way to find a more reasonable existing plan.

So why do it part way? Why not just regulate insurance at the federal level, and get the states out of it entirely? Then any insurance company could offer policies anywhere they want.

Bringing down the cost of care itself in a direct way is a lot more complicated.

It's also where the bulk of the problem lies.

 

[willhaven]

A unified system that regulates at the federal level would probably be more effective, but it could also be a more radical change than what we've already got going.

It doesn't sound like a bad idea, but people seem to be weary enough about what we're already doing, and it's mostly positive as it is.

 

[Skeptic]

well, we were going to. but now because the ********** voted against their best interests,

Edited by Locknar: 

Moderated content removed.

Ah, the Democratic party: the party of the people, always reaching out to the common man.

 

[Skeptic]

For some people, this health-care bill is much like the charity events the squire, or the lady of the manor, would organize in old England. It is much more about getting the sponsors of the bill to feel good about themselves for helping the lower orders than it has anything to do with the lower orders themselves.

What if the knuckle-dragging ********, I mean masses, apparently don't want what their betters had prepared for them? Who asks them! Their superiors will go ahead with it anyway, and the peasants better shut up and cooperate.

 

[quixotecoyote]

For some people, this health-care bill is much like the charity events the squire, or the lady of the manor, would organize in old England. It is much more about getting the sponsors of the bill to feel good about themselves for helping the lower orders than it has anything to do with the lower orders themselves.

What if the knuckle-dragging *********, I mean masses, apparently don't want what their betters had prepared for them? Who asks them! Their superiors will go ahead with it anyway, and the peasants better shut up and cooperate.

Edited by Locknar: 

Moderated content removed.

This post is especially delicious in light of the fact that Massachusetts already passed a state insurance plan, then voted for someone who would work against a national insurance plan.

Throws the roles in the metaphor for a right spin, don't it?

 

[Skeptic]

This post is especially delicious in light of the fact that Massachusetts already passed a state insurance plan, then voted for someone who would work against a national insurance plan.

Which seems... well, which seems pretty much working for their own interests, doesn't it? Not wanting to pay for a national health care plan they now don't need?

In any case, I never understood the "voting against their interest" stuff. It seems to apply only when someone votes Republican. Gazillionaire movie stars voting Democrat and demanding Obama raise taxes on the rich -- that is, their own taxes? That's idealism.

 

[gnome]

It seems odd to describe dodging a parliamentary trick intended to prevent a simple majority vote, would be considered a parliamentary trick to "force" the bill against the will of the voters.

 

[leftysergeant]

No summit. A debate fully revealing the bill to the American people. Live on C-SPAN. As promised by Obama.

Do learn how government works. Obama can only suggest that procedings by televised. He can't force it on a co-equal branch of government. Even if the Democrats in the House and Senate wanted the cameras there, I doubt that most of the diaper-wetting Republican would, because it would soon be apparent to the country that the right-wing morons are just getting in the way of anything's getting done.

 

[leftysergeant]

The main problem with the bill is it deals almost entirely with health insurance, and not the root cause of the problem - the cost of health care.

Balderdash. The insurance companies are making record profits now and just raised their rates far more than the rate of inflation. Care to present some proof that inflation is causing more than a similar increase in the cost of medical care?

Do I need to remind everyone here once again that the total value of insurance company profits and overhead is less than 5% of the total cost of health care?

So you are saying that the insurance companies spend $.95 of every dollar on paying doctors and hosipital bills for their policy holders?

 

[Minadin]

as a patriotic American, I would like to see our politicians come together in some fashion, to pass a bi-partisan bill.

Even if we only get 4 Senators onboard, thats better then nothing.

But, if the GOP insists on "starting over", than they can forget it, and we will do it without them.

Baloney. You started a thread asking for Republican / conservative input and spent the whole time pretending that they weren't offering ideas even though several were put forward.

There's no shame in starting over when the bill is as terrible as this one is. Don't you think there is any other way to achieve the stated goal of making health care universally accessible and affordable to all Americans? Is that just not possible in your mind?

 

[WildCat]

Balderdash. The insurance companies are making record profits now and just raised their rates far more than the rate of inflation. Care to present some proof that inflation is causing more than a similar increase in the cost of medical care?

News flash for you: Health care costs have been increasing well above the rate of inflation for many years now. And it's health insurance premiums that have to pay for the health care of their policy holders.

So you are saying that the insurance companies spend $.95 of every dollar on paying doctors and hosipital bills for their policy holders?

No, I'm saying that total health insurance industry profits + administrative costs account for ~$100 billion, or about 2% of the cost of health care in the US.

And you think that 2% is where the problem lies?

 

[Random]

Balderdash. The insurance companies are making record profits now and just raised their rates far more than the rate of inflation. Care to present some proof that inflation is causing more than a similar increase in the cost of medical care?

So you are saying that the insurance companies spend $.95 of every dollar on paying doctors and hosipital bills for their policy holders?

While health insurance companies are greedy, unscrupulous, profit-skimming jerks who add a totally unnecessary layer of cost to healthcare, they are not the biggest problem with healthcare in the US. The big problem is the total disconnect between the people who sell medical care (doctors, hospitals, drug companies), the people who buy medical care (patients), and the people who pay for medical care (Medicare, health insurance companies, etc.)

Imagine that instead of buying individual items from a grocery store with your own money, you could go to a “Grocery Payment Company” and buy a card for say $165 a month. The GPC figures that the average person buys $150 worth of food a month, and they tack on an extra 10% for operating costs and profit. The GPC card would allow you to walk into your local grocery store and take as many groceries as you would like. The store would then send a bill to the GPC. The GPC would then take the money it received from you, subtract the cost of the food, then keep the rest.

You like it because it is convenient, the store likes it because it gets people buying the stuff on the shelves, and the GPC likes it because they make a profit. This works right up to the instant that GPC customers realize that they can take more than $150 worth of food from the shelves. And its not just quantity of food either, why have hamburger when you can have steak? Why have tuna when you can have lobster?

Now GPC card holders are grabbing $200 dollars worth or food a month. The store sends the bill to the GPC who suddenly need to raise rates to $220 a month if they want to keep their ten percent. The GPC card holders complain, but its still a good deal, they just make a note to “get their money’s worth” next time they are at the store, and the cycle begins again.

After a while, the GPC is looking to raise the rates to $330 a month and are worried that this will cause cardholders to leave. So they call up the grocery store and demand that GPC card holders get a discount. The store balks a bit, but the GPC points out that half the store business comes from GPC cardholders and if they stop buying, the store will lose money. The store agrees to the discount, and tries to make up for any lost revenue by raising the price of food for people who do not have a GPC card. If they get hungry, they have to buy food.

Things continue like this for a while, and soon the store is making money, the GPC is making a lot of money, but cardholders are paying $400 a month for a GPC card that used to cost $165, but can’t drop it because food is so expensive, while people without the GPC card are going hungry because a loaf of bread costs $15.

Does this sound completely bonkers to you? Does to me as well, but this is how the US healthcare system operates. We can all talk about Democrats and Republicans working or not working together, but it is all meaningless if the actual problem is not solved.

I knew that Obamacare was doomed as soon as I heard he had worked out a deal with the drug industry and insurace companies. Any attempt to actually fix US healthcare practically requires that we screw these people over.

 

[Beerina]

It seems odd to describe dodging a parliamentary trick intended to prevent a simple majority vote, would be considered a parliamentary trick to "force" the bill against the will of the voters.

When 70% are against it, in spite of the election a year and a half ago?

I find it disturbing said officials are proceeding down this path in spite of the knowledge of the changed opinions of those who democratically put them there.

Does democracy mean nothing? "We won for reasons that have nothing to do with health care, so we're gonna jam it down everyone's throat anyway, in spite of all evidence to the contrary that they don't, in fact, want it?"


Oh, another fact. They (you) did not win because you promised health care. You won because you weren't Bush and the Republicans. Afghanistan and Iraq, remember that small issue?

 

[Beerina]

Balderdash. The insurance companies are making record profits now and just raised their rates far more than the rate of inflation. Care to present some proof that inflation is causing more than a similar increase in the cost of medical care?

IIRC, non-patented stuff is going up slightly slower than the rate of inflation. It's the new stuff that costs, and the more new stuff, the better. This is a good thing.

It's not a choice between costly new stuff and cheap new stuff. It's a choice between costly new stuff and no new stuff.

 

[Beerina]

Oh, BTW, in case you can't tell, I re-iterate that I encourage Obama and the Democrats, and sympathizers around here, to loudly and proudly state, in no uncertain terms, how they're planning to go it alone for the good of The People, in spite of polls showing The People don't want it.

I encourage all of you to keep up your Good Works.

 

[leftysergeant]

Oh, BTW, in case you can't tell, I re-iterate that I encourage Obama and the Democrats, and sympathizers around here, to loudly and proudly state, in no uncertain terms, how they're planning to go it alone for the good of The People, in spite of polls showing The People don't want it.

The people wanted it before the Republicans threw a tantrum and blocked every attempt to pass a bill that would work. What is on the table now will be a weak attempt to achieve the initial ends.

I wonder, too, how many of the people who now oppose health care reform oppose it because they believe the lies that the right wing squawk radio and the Arctic MILF have been telling them?