Haitian earthquake was used as an excuse for US invasion

[dudalb]

Ya gotta love the Good Old Fashioned Marxist Rhetoric we are getting now.
Let's face it, if Ron Paul had been president and had NOT sent troops because it would be interfering in Haiti's internal affairs, we would be blasted for letting blacks starve to death, etc.We can't win with these people.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

By keeping Haiti a sweatshop economy it remains part of the US global market. Didn't Mrs Clinton recently suggest they convert their countryside into a giant mango plantation?

The main thing is that the US economic elite doesn't want Haiti follow the Venezuelan/Cuban etc. model of development.

There's basically no industry in Haiti and IIRC, Japan isn't a sweatshop and is in the global market.

venezuela/cuba are failed models, which don't work. Chavez is a living cartoon character who seems to be bending his ear to Jack Thompson.

And i'd really like to see evidence for the claim that hillary sought to turn haiti into a mango plantation.

 

[Rogue1stclass]

Mangos?

Really?

For the record, mangos aren't exactly a high demand fruit. The largest consumer of mangos, India, is also the largest producer of them. The largest importer of mangos is the UK, where they are primarily bought by those of Indian ancestry.

The DR is the 8th largest producer of mangos in the world, and in 2005 it's export crop netted the country around $3 million USD. For Haiti to even reach this level of export will require more initial investment than mangos will ever pay off.

In fact, the initial investment to get any business off the ground in Haiti after this earthquake is going to be prohibitively expensive, which again leads to the question that if the US has such a desire to occupy Haiti, why didn't it do so when it had troops in the country twice before, when there might have been a chance at making a profit off of the country?

 

[Travis]

By keeping Haiti a sweatshop economy it remains part of the US global market. Didn't Mrs Clinton recently suggest they convert their countryside into a giant mango plantation?

The main thing is that the US economic elite doesn't want Haiti follow the Venezuelan/Cuban etc. model of development.

You might be correct but not for the reasons you think. Cuba and Venezuela are messes. Both are likely to have complete meltdowns and social unrest. If that can be avoided in Haiti by turning it into a self sufficient economy then that would be for the better.

 

[dudalb]

Seriously, why would Haiti want to follow the Cuba and V enezuela models?
Might as well follow the Soviet Union Economic model.
Oh, wait.........

 

[Rogue1stclass]

Last I looked, the US aggressively doesn't allow its corporations to "exploit" Cuba's markets.

 

[perseus]

Last I looked, the US aggressively doesn't allow its corporations to "exploit" Cuba's markets.

No because the US were defeated at the Bay of Pigs, but they did before the revolution!



BTW The rich countries, Germany Japan were judged to be like the US, civilised intelligent people who had gone astray. It was impossible to keep them in slavery since they still had tasted wealth and would simply rebel again as was learnt from reparations between the wars.

However, there was still a need to keep most of the world in poverty to support the rich. They are our slaves in all but name. If you believe in free markets why not go the whole hog and allow them the education and access to jobs and markets so they can compete with the average middle class European or American. I think somehow this idea would not be popular. Even the outsourcing to 'sweatshop' versions of 'advice centres' is unpopular costing the West jobs.

Lets face it, given the same opportunity these guys from developing world would work the bo**ocks of us in any field!

 

[DC]

There's basically no industry in Haiti and IIRC, Japan isn't a sweatshop and is in the global market.

venezuela/cuba are failed models, which don't work. Chavez is a living cartoon character who seems to be bending his ear to Jack Thompson.

And i'd really like to see evidence for the claim that hillary sought to turn haiti into a mango plantation.

Evidence pls?

 

[Travis]

Evidence pls?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8464960.stm

"More than one million Cubans of all social classes have left the island to the United States..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_exile​

Why is Vietnam Recovering, while Cuba is Sinking?

Economic Freedom Score

1 Hong Kong 89.7 -0.3
2 Singapore 86.1 -1.0
3 Australia 82.6 0.0
4 New Zealand 82.1 +0.1
5 Ireland 81.3 -0.9
6 Switzerland 81.1 +1.7
7 Canada 80.4 -0.1
8 United States 78.0 -2.7
...
174 Venezuela 37.1 -2.8
175 Burma 36.7 -1.0
176 Eritrea 35.3 -3.2
177 Cuba 26.7 -1.2
178 Zimbabwe 21.4 -1.3
179 North Korea 1.0 -1.0​

Granted the last bit is from the Heritage Foundation but it is merely compiled statistics.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

No because the US were defeated at the Bay of Pigs, but they did before the revolution!

And they became worse off as a result, getting so bad they had to turn to the USSR for bailouts by 1968

BTW The rich countries, Germany Japan were judged to be like the US, civilised intelligent people who had gone astray. It was impossible to keep them in slavery since they still had tasted wealth and would simply rebel again as was learnt from reparations between the wars.

*facepalm*

The US were very racist towards the japanese. And it was possible to "enslave" them, since they were bombed to hell in WW2.

IIRC, Japan had not been ordered to pay reparations after WW1 as it was an entente power.

However, there was still a need to keep most of the world in poverty to support the rich.

Evidence? otherwise i can discard that.

They are our slaves in all but name.

Evidence or Get The Out!

If you believe in free markets why not go the whole hog and allow them the education and access to jobs and markets so they can compete with the average middle class European or American. I think somehow this idea would not be popular. Even the outsourcing to 'sweatshop' versions of 'advice centres' is unpopular costing the West jobs.

It's because of protectionism on the Third World's part that their economies are unsuccessful. But because Chile followed Free Market policies, it's gdp is higher than that of Cuba.

Lets face it, given the same opportunity these guys from developing world would work the bo**ocks of us in any field!

Let's see, according to a harvard economist, had the African countries followed the Asian tiger model of free markets instead of the Soviet/Cuban command economy model, rather than having a 0.8% growth rate, they'd have a 4.3% growth rate between 1965 and 1990. So if they did adopt free makret policies, then yeah, they would be successful and be viable economic competitors in the world.

 

[perseus]

The problem is not the political system, but corruption. Eliminate corruption and you get a better quality of life. I would not rate GDP as a viable measure of quality of life, this is a very capitalist centred view which helps to justify their own system.

The issue of slavery is self evident. People get paid very little and work hard to supply us with the raw materials and low tech manufactured goods which support the lifestyles we enjoy.

 

[aggle-rithm]

The problem is not the political system, but corruption. Eliminate corruption and you get a better quality of life.

Ingenius! Why didn't I think of it?

Hey, everybody! Let's eliminate corruption in the world!

I'm free this afternoon.

I would not rate GDP as a viable measure of quality of life, this is a very capitalist centred view which helps to justify their own system.

Probably right. But, it is the contributing factor that is easiest to measure objectively.

The issue of slavery is self evident. People get paid very little and work hard to supply us with the raw materials and low tech manufactured goods which support the lifestyles we enjoy.

So, what should we do about it? If we stop buying their goods, then they have no jobs. If they are lucky, they will find employment where they have to work even harder and make even less money. This problem has been around since long before the modern system of capitalism developed.

 

[aggle-rithm]

BTW The rich countries, Germany Japan were judged to be like the US, civilised intelligent people who had gone astray. It was impossible to keep them in slavery since they still had tasted wealth and would simply rebel again as was learnt from reparations between the wars.

So the US controls all the markets in the world except the ones they don't. Brilliant!

However, there was still a need to keep most of the world in poverty to support the rich. They are our slaves in all but name.

How do you reconcile that with global outsourcing and a massive trade deficit that makes these developing countries wealthier?

 

[Travis]

The problem is not the political system, but corruption. Eliminate corruption and you get a better quality of life.

Which was the aim of the reforms Haiti agree to in 1994. It previously had a form of crony-capitalism.

I would not rate GDP as a viable measure of quality of life, this is a very capitalist centred view which helps to justify their own system.

And yet GDP very strongly correlates with virtually every quality of life metric there is.

The issue of slavery is self evident. People get paid very little and work hard to supply us with the raw materials and low tech manufactured goods which support the lifestyles we enjoy.

Which means they are not slaves unless you can demonstrate that they can't quit their jobs.

As for them being paid "little." Last time I checked "little" was still more than "nothing." Maybe your dictionary differs. Even if we assume that them being paid "little" is some sort of problem then what is your solution? Not buy their products?

 

[perseus]

The problem is not the political system, but corruption

Don't knock this, it is not a loose opinion but stressed by the experts, ask Travis since he seems to know so much about this! I think the experts claim success by funding local communities with micro loans, they seem too take responsibility and self regulate it far more effectively than centralised governments, and exploit people far less than the multi nationals.

And yet GDP very strongly correlates with virtually every quality of life metric there is.

Beyond about $10,000 per capita it doesn't, however there is some evidence that equality does. Why not look at the evidence?

Which means they are not slaves unless you can demonstrate that they can't quit their jobs.

I'm obviously using a broader definition, in practise many would find it impractical to quit, especially if they have debts

How do you reconcile that with global outsourcing and a massive trade deficit that makes these developing countries wealthier?

I suspect it's a bit like taking a young girl from a starving family and claiming you can make her life better, then prostitute her. These people are still being exploited and don't get a fair deal.

No doubt access to modern technologies can potentially make their lives better but if they are living in a cosmopolitan world inundated with media from affluent countries it will make them feel poorer and all the more miserable.

 

[Elizabeth I]

I'm obviously using a broader definition, in practise many would find it impractical to quit, especially if they have debts

So now an acceptable arguing technique is to re-define words to mean what you want them to mean?

A fan of Humpty-Dumpty, are you?

 

[dudalb]

So now an acceptable arguing technique is to re-define words to mean what you want them to mean?

A fan of Humpty-Dumpty, are you?

Of all the bad debating tactics I have seen on the web, "Personal Definations" is the one that annoys me the most.
If you redefine words that have a clear meaning at will, then it's playing with a deck of cards that has nothing BUT jokers, and the game is meaningless.

 

[Travis]

Don't knock this, it is not a loose opinion but stressed by the experts, ask Travis since he seems to know so much about this!

I agree with the experts. Replacing political systems without weeding out corruption is a doomed endeavor. That's why ending crony-capitalism was a goal for Haiti in the mid 90's.

I think the experts claim success by funding local communities with micro loans, they seem too take responsibility and self regulate it far more effectively than centralised governments, and exploit people far less than the multi nationals.

Encouraging capitalism and entrepreneurship is a goal in reforming broken nations.

Beyond about $10,000 per capita it doesn't, however there is some evidence that equality does. Why not look at the evidence?

You don't think equality factors into "quality of life?"

I'm obviously using a broader definition, in practise many would find it impractical to quit, especially if they have debts

You're using a definition that you made up. As for it being "impractical to quit" well it's not exactly practical for me to quit my job too. In fact it would be hard on almost anyone. Are you seriously arguing that everyone that isn't a multi-millionaire is a "slave?"

I suspect it's a bit like taking a young girl from a starving family and claiming you can make her life better, then prostitute her.

Are you seriously asserting that being paid to work in a factory is the same as being forced into a brothel?

These people are still being exploited and don't get a fair deal.

How do you figure they are being "exploited" and what do you consider a "fair deal?"

No doubt access to modern technologies can potentially make their lives better but if they are living in a cosmopolitan world inundated with media from affluent countries it will make them feel poorer and all the more miserable.

And the media reminds me everyday that I do not own a luxury sedan and am not dating Natalie Portman. What cruel bastards!

 

[aggle-rithm]

And the media reminds me everyday that I do not own a luxury sedan and am not dating Natalie Portman. What cruel bastards!

Exactly! According to the documentary "Affluenza", people in developed countries suffer a great deal of dissatisfaction for precisely this reason. In third-world countries where they don't have as much access to the media, there isn't this cultural demand for people to be more successful than they are. They tend to get more of their satisfaction from their relationships with friends and family.

 

[perseus]

There is surprisingly a great deal we agree on in the previous posts. just to get back on track

Regarding slavery the article on wiki suggests this term is often usen pejoratively, obviously I am referring to wage slavery in this context and is widely used. Right wing globalists understandably don't like this term as they prefer their style of politics to be window dressed in the best possible way!

The word slavery is often used as a pejorative to describe any activity in which one is coerced into performing.

Many anarchists, socialists, and communists have condemned "wage slavery or "economic slavery", where workers are forced to choose between selling their labour and facing starvation, poverty or social stigma and a lack of prosperity. This is related to the notion of economic coercion.[citation needed]
Some libertarians and anarcho-capitalists view government taxation as a form of slavery.[165]
Some progressives and feminists feel that anti-abortion laws and other government laws that force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term is a form of slavery.
Some feel that military drafts and other forms of coerced government labour constitute state-operated slavery.[166][167][168][169]
Some proponents of animal rights apply the term slavery to the condition of some or all human-owned animals, arguing that their status is comparable to that of human slaves.[170] "

This perhaps helps to distinguish between the type of 'slavery' typically imposed on people by multinationals and the small scale entrepreneurship encouraged within local communities. In a broader sense I would claim that even Western society imposes a wage slave culture on its subjects. i.e, people are 'conditioned' to keep up with the Jones' rather than to subsist, hence they become extremely subservient to corporate power known as the 'rat race'.