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ClimateGate - A great new Website

Tomblvd said:
I'm not sure why everyone is still debating whether some AGW proponents have embellished the truth.
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I'm debating whether mhaze can support a specific claim he's made, or whether he's willing to withdraw his claim. At present he's refusing to do either.
 
No matter if the science of global warming is all phony... climate change provides the greatest opportunity to bring about justice and equality in the world.

- Christine Stewart, former Canadian Minister of the Environment
 
Tomblvd said:
No matter if the science of global warming is all phony... climate change provides the greatest opportunity to bring about justice and equality in the world.

- Christine Stewart, former Canadian Minister of the Environment
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Are you going to copy paste all of the quotes from that SPPI site in separate posts?
 
mhaze said:
I just wanted to pass along a great website - ClimateGate - Anthropogenic Global Warming - History's Biggest Scam - which is an index of common claims against Climategate and effective counter-arguments. This is very similar in format to the famous Index to Creationist Claims by Talk Origins. There's even a facebook and twitter link, which I've already used on a few occasions to set someone straight about Climategate in the few days I've had it on my computer.

Enjoy, and go increase your carbon footprints!
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Good stuff. It's much to sane for the insane AGW crowd though. Forget them. Keep sending the link to people who haven't yet had their brains rotted by the AGW hoax.

It's sort of like fighting chiropractic. Once people get to thinking it really can cure cerebal palsy, you just almost CAN'T dispel the notion. Best to keep working on others who haven't succumbed to the idiocy of AGW.
 
BenBurch said:
Primary source for that quote, please?
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I've had an opportunity to research that one.

The most common variation is:
"No matter if the science is all phoney [sic], there are collateral environmental benefits."
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The trail seems to converge on a Peter Menzies editorial in the Calgary Herald from 1998: [Concerned about cost of Kyoto]

Note that there is no claim that Stewart herself actually said that. It's just the words of an imaginary version of Stewart that was part of the artistic style of the article. ie: it's a fictional dialogue.

Again: this comes across as a basic reading comprehension problem.
 
I love how you guys ignored all the other quotes and jump on the one that doesn't have a direct source. Because, you know, nobody says anything like that.

Here. Ignore this one:

Al Gore, Grist Magazine (http://www.grist.org/article/roberts2/)

I think the answer to that depends on where your audience's head is. In the United States of America, unfortunately we still live in a bubble of unreality. And the Category 5 denial is an enormous obstacle to any discussion of solutions. Nobody is interested in solutions if they don't think there's a problem. Given that starting point, I believe it is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presentations on how dangerous it is, as a predicate for opening up the audience to listen to what the solutions are, and how hopeful it is that we are going to solve this crisis.

Over time that mix will change. As the country comes to more accept the reality of the crisis, there's going to be much more receptivity to a full-blown discussion of the solutions.
 
blutoski said:
I've had an opportunity to research that one.

The most common variation is:


The trail seems to converge on a Peter Menzies editorial in the Calgary Herald from 1998: [Concerned about cost of Kyoto]

Note that there is no claim that Stewart herself actually said that. It's just the words of an imaginary version of Stewart that was part of the artistic style of the article. ie: it's a fictional dialogue.

Again: this comes across as a basic reading comprehension problem.
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Not that this will matter:

Christine Stewart, then Canadian Minister of the Environment, speaking before editors and reporters of the Calgary Herald, 1998, and quoted by Terence Corcoran, “Global Warming: The Real Agenda,” Financial Post, 26 December 1998, from the Calgary Herald, December, 14, 1998. Cited by Fred Singer, page 4

How did you manage to determine that she did not say what the paper quoted?

I find it interesting that they so badly misquoted her, yet there's no evidence of a request for a retraction.
 
blutoski said:
Again: this comes across as a basic reading comprehension problem.
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George Bernard Shaw once said: "No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means." In a general sense, I think that applies to anyone with sufficiently strong opinions, no matter the topic. It could be seen as a reading apprehension problem as well. Same thing, in the end -- a lack of comprehension. But it seems like a form of dyslexia or something, where their ability to understand is impeded by their own filters before it even enters their brain. (And unfortunately for some, it comes back like a form of Tourette's.)
 
Tomblvd said:
If you want to change the subject, fine. There is no doubt that Gore made "outrageous statements that hurt the actual science".

-there is no chance that sea levels will rise 20 feet in the forseeable future.

-the island of Tuvalu is not being swamped by rising sea levels.

-the snows of Mount Kilimanjaro are not melting due to GW.

He made numerous statements like this, always taking worst-case scenarios, to scare people into believing AGW. We don't need that, it only hurts the cause.
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Gore made numerous claims. In respect of the glaciers, he refered to several.

Effects of Global Warming


  • And now we’re beginning to see the impact in the real world. This is Mount Kilimanjaro more than 30 years ago, and more recently. And a friend of mine just came back from Kilimanjaro with a picture he took a couple of months ago.
    ots2.jpg
    Another friend of mine Lonnie Thompson studies glaciers. Here’s Lonnie with a sliver of a once mighty glacier. Within the decade there will be no more snows of Kilimanjaro.
  • This is happening in Glacier National Park. I climbed to the top of this in 1998 with one of my daughters. Within 15 years this will be the park formerly known as Glacier.
  • Here is what has been happening year by year to the Columbia Glacier. It just retreats more and more every year. And it is a shame because these glaciers are so beautiful. People who go up to see them, here is what they are seeing every day now.
  • In the Himalayas there is a particular problem because more than 40% of all the people in the world get their drinking water from rivers and spring systems that are fed more than half by the melt water coming off the glaciers. Within this next half century those 40% of the people on earth are going to face a very serious shortage because of this melting.
  • Italy, the Italian Alps same site today. An old postcard from the Switzerland: throughout the Alps we are seeing the same story.
  • It’s also true in South America. This is Peru 15 years ago and the same glacier today.
  • This is Argentina 20 years ago, the same glacier today.
  • 75 years ago in Patagonia on the tip of South America, this vast expanse of ice is now gone.
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Looks like he got it mostly right, not bad for a lay person. As it is, the debate on Kilimanjaro is still not resolved.
 
a_unique_person said:
Gore made numerous claims. In respect of the glaciers, he refered to several.


[/LIST]
Looks like he got it mostly right, not bad for a lay person. As it is, the debate on Kilimanjaro is still not resolved.
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You're kidding, right?

You can't just say things and declare them "right".

First of all, Gore isn't just a "lay person". He did a documentary, and accepted all the accolades for it. He is therefore responsible for what is in it.

In the Himalayas there is a particular problem because more than 40% of all the people in the world get their drinking water from rivers and spring systems that are fed more than half by the melt water coming off the glaciers. Within this next half century those 40% of the people on earth are going to face a very serious shortage because of this melting.
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Haven't you been around recently for "Glaciergate"? That claim has been proven to be completely wrong.

And it's widely agreed that normal climatological fluctuations are resulting in the snowmelt on Kilimanjaro. There are many influences to consider, but AGW is not one of them.
 
Tomblvd said:
I love how you guys ignored all the other quotes and jump on the one that doesn't have a direct source. Because, you know, nobody says anything like that.
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A true mhaze disciple... provide a manufactured quote, and when called on it spin, spin, spin...

This thread is very entertaining :D
 
Tomblvd said:
You're kidding, right?

You can't just say things and declare them "right".

First of all, Gore isn't just a "lay person". He did a documentary, and accepted all the accolades for it. He is therefore responsible for what is in it.
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He is responsible, and he got it mostly right.

Haven't you been around recently for "Glaciergate"? That claim has been proven to be completely wrong.
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You are referring to the WG2. The glaciers are still melting, no doubt about it. The timeframe is not the incorrect one specified in the WG2 report.
And it's widely agreed that normal climatological fluctuations are resulting in the snowmelt on Kilimanjaro. There are many influences to consider, but AGW is not one of them.
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It's widely agreed that the debate is ongoing. There is evidence both ways.
 
Megalodon said:
A true mhaze disciple... provide a manufactured quote, and when called on it spin, spin, spin...

This thread is very entertaining :D
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What quote is that? I gave more than one source. I'm sorry if I don't have a youtube video of her saying it.

I posted a number of quotes. Why did you ignore the rest? Were they "manufactured"?

I posted quotes going back 24 hours, but everybody pretended they didn't exist. Then I post one with questionable sourcing, and everyone jumps.

Entertaining indeed. And quite hollow.
 
a_unique_person said:
He is responsible, and he got it mostly right.
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Got what mostly right?



You are referring to the WG2. The glaciers are still melting, no doubt about it. The timeframe is not the incorrect one specified in the WG2 report.
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Glaciers in the eastern Himalayas are melting, but the ones in the west are growing. And none of the melting is due to AGW.


It's widely agreed that the debate is ongoing. There is evidence both ways.
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Then it is despicable that Gore states as a fact that glaciers are melting due to AGW.
 
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