• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

Status
Not open for further replies.
DOC said:
What is your source that this Roman Senator and historian got his information that way?
Click to expand...
Well, let's see. He wasn't born until ~20 AFTER Jesus was reported to have been crucified until he was dead, dead, dead. He started his public career circa 80CE, some 50-odd years after said crucifixion. His "Histories" wasn't written until 105CE, some 70 years after it.

I'm thinking that he never actually met Jesus.

Peter was reported to have dies in 67CE, so Tacitus could have met him. There's no evidence for that though.

Even John, who was the last disciple to die died in ~100. Maybe Tacitus traveled to Ephesus to meet him, but again, no evidence there.

Looking kind of slim for Tacitus to be getting first hand accounts. Even if he did meet up with, for example, John; John would have been an old man recalling tales from his youth. John was in his 90's when he died, so if Tacitus met up with him just after becoming a Senator, John would have been in his 70's, recalling things from 40-45 years earlier? Still anecdotal and marred with time.

Interesting fact, the more times you remember something, the more altered it gets. Since all the evidence is that John didn't write anything down, all he had was his memory; even if Jesus was just some guy who made a decent impression on John (i.e. not divine) John constantly recalling tales wouldn't cemement them in his mind, they'd alter them to fit a preconcieved notion of what he wanted the time to be. By the time he would have been able to talk to Tacitus, his memories would be a Chineese Whisper of reality.
 
DOC said:
No they haven't.
Click to expand...


Yes, they have.

Hokulele said:
DOC said:
So then you knew about all of these facts I brought in before you started to read the thread?
Click to expand...


All of these "facts", most of which have been refuted, don't even support your premise. But just for fun, here we go:

Sir William Mitchell Ramsay calling gospel writer Luke a great historian,
Click to expand...


Discussed here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5093485#post5093485

Oxford professor Thomas Arnold's statement regarding the evidence of Christ and the Resurrection.
Click to expand...


Discussed here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2659155#post2659155

The Moral Argument,
Click to expand...


Although there are bits and bobs of discussion about this, the best summary of this in all its forms is here:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-arguments-god/

The Cosmological Argument,
Click to expand...


Discussed (ad nauseum) here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4984792#post4984792

the fact that there is over 5000 New Testament manuscripts in existence compared to 7 for Plato and 20 for famous Roman Historian Tacitus.
Click to expand...


Discussed here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5042421#post5042421

The fact that there are 41 written sources for the life of Christ (31 Christian + 9 non-Christian) compared to 10 written sources (9 non-Christian + 1 Christian) for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the emperor during the life of Christ.
Click to expand...


Discussion on the 9 non-Christian sources for the life of Christ (ignoring the 31 Christian sources as it is using the NT as evidence for the NT, yellow flag, 15 yard penalty, repeat 3rd down):

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3279037#post3279037

Ignoring the bit about Caesar as being a meaningless tu quoque.

Christianity had spread all the way to Rome by peaceful means and Nero blamed the Christians in Rome for the Roman fire in 64 ad.-- 31 years after the death of Christ.
Click to expand...


Well, this is the closest thing to being a fact (at least the bit about Nero). Of course, most of the credit can go to Paul who, as we all know, never met Jesus in person. At best, he had some sort of visionary experience. I would say this point is more evidence that Paul was convincing than what he believed had any basis in truth. Of course, many people have tried to use the spread of Christianity as an argument of its truth, but that rarely ends well, as can be seen here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94853&page=3

Jews have been converted to Christianity because of Isaiah Chapter 53 and at least one writer has claimed there are 25 fulfilled prophesies in that one chapter.
Click to expand...


Refuted here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4705438#post4705438

And here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4708185#post4708185

And here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4720381#post4720381

Most archaeologists believe Jesus' 1st century tomb is most probably directly under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
Click to expand...


Partially discussed here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5124142#post5124142

More discussion here, with much more detail about any archeological support of any biblical story:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4997467#post4997467

11 apostles suffered a martyrs death in spite of the fact it was recorded they acted cowardly and uncertain before the resurrection.
Click to expand...


Discussed here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4664470#post4664470

And a big reason some of these get repeated is that they are needed to give a complete response to some skeptics who keep asking the same questions or bring up the same points.
Click to expand...


The same questions are repeated because these arguments have all been refuted, and just like a Weeble, they keep coming back up again.

And most interestingly, none of these "facts" have much to do with the "evidence" laid out in the OP. Of course, those were dealt with pretty much on page 1.
Click to expand...


If you make this claim again, you will be called a liar.
 
DOC said:
These facts weren't on the 1st page:
Click to expand...

<sigh> Ok lets see what I have learned by reading this thread… Maybe Doc can review these too.

DOC said:
the fact that there is over 5000 New Testament manuscripts in existence compared to 7 manuscripts for Plato and 20 for famous Roman Historian Tacitus.
Click to expand...

That the pieces of manuscripts exist is probably true, I will accept that as fact. However the number of manuscripts is does not support the truth of a document (see Mao’s Little Red Book). As such is does not support your opening Post.
On a side note, I would be interested to know:
1. How many of these documents exist that come from within say 50 years of the death of the individual depicted/discussed. These could conceivably be first hand accounts even though it could be clouded by time instead of hearsay or copies of copies of copies.
2. What kind of consistency is there between the copies of the documents.
3. How complete are the manuscripts, if I have 2 books of 20 chapters, One is intact that counts as 1 MS, if I then take and cut the book up by chapters and mail them to friends then recollect them at a later date. Does that now count as 20 manuscripts? How many complete NT could you make out of those 5000 MS?

DOC said:
Sir William Mitchell Ramsay called gospel writer Luke a great historian with regard to facts that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
Click to expand...

It is true that Sir William Ramsey did day something to this effect and you have nicely added the caveat that he included. The fact is that he said this, HOWEVER the statement itself is an OPINION and NOT in itself a FACT and does not support you opening post.

DOC said:
The fact that there are 40 written sources for the life of Christ (31 Christian + 9 non-Christian) compared to 10 written sources (9 non-Christian + 1 Christian) for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the emperor during the life of Christ.
Click to expand...

I believe that you are misrepresenting the total number. The discussion has pointed out that in several cases you are conflating any references to the existence of Christians as the same as references to the existence of Christ. However the number of references especially well after the fact cannot be said to indicate the truthfulness of something. As such this does not support you opening post.

DOC said:
Christianity had spread all the way to Rome by peaceful means and Nero blamed the Christians in Rome for the Roman fire in 64 ad.-- 31 years after the death of Christ.
Click to expand...

OK I am not a historian and can’t assess this either way whether or not this is a fact. However if it is FACT, it does not support the truthiness of the NT and as such does not support your opening post.

DOC said:
Jews have been converted to Christianity because of Isaiah Chapter 53 and at least one writer has claimed there are 25 fulfilled prophesies in that one chapter.
Click to expand...

These, as written, are true statements, people convert from one religion to another all the time for various reasons. However this has no bearing on the validity of the religion that they leave or are going to. As such does not support your opening post. Regarding Isaiah, it has also been noted by others that some of those 25 ‘prophesies’ are so mundane they could apply to almost anyone, some appear to be based on mistranslations of the original text, even the bible says that Jesus knew of the prophesy and cheated by intentionally fulfilling them. There are also indications that lots of retro-dicting has gone on to shoe horn the Christ story into Isaiah. Others have pointed out that, taken in context, it is not even talking about a future messiah. Besides Isaiah isn’t even in the NT! As such this is not really supporting your opening post regarding the truth of the NT.

DOC said:
Most archaeologists believe Jesus' 1st century tomb is most probably directly under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
Click to expand...

While this may be a true statement (I question the use of ‘most’) regarding the OPINION of those archeologists. If they had proof (non mathematical type) they wouldn’t use the have used the caveats ‘believe’ and ‘probably’. As this boils down to an opinion and not fact, it is not supporting your opening post.

DOC said:
Oxford professor Thomas Arnold's statement regarding the evidence of Christ and the Resurrection and how he considered them to have more historical evidence then any other fact in history up to that point.
Click to expand...

You are at least consistent, This is factual statement about his OPINION regarding this topic. Besides, he died in 1900 we have garnered a lot more archeological information as well as uncovered more manuscripts in the last 110 years. As it is an opinion, one made more than 110 years ago, it does not support your opening post.

DOC said:
The Moral Argument,
Click to expand...

Is this even a FACT, if this is what I think it is it boils down to a circular reasoning fallacy. As this is not a fact but a fallacious argument is does not support your opening post.

DOC said:
The Cosmological Argument,
Click to expand...

This is not a FACT, if this is what I think it is it boils down to a argument from ignorance fallacy. As this is not a fact but a fallacious argument is does not support your opening post.

DOC said:
11 apostles suffered a martyrs death in spite of the fact it was recorded they acted cowardly and uncertain before the resurrection.
Click to expand...

First of all, this has been dealt with time and again. The willingness to die for a cause does not indicate truth only conviction. As such this does not support your opening post. Besides if the second portion of your statement WERE true it reflects very poorly on Jesus’ powers of persuasion prior to the crucifixion.

DOC said:
Simon Greenleaf, a founder of Harvard Law School, said the 4 Gospel accounts could be admitted in a court as evidence, and that divergent accounts are normal for eyewitnesses.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, citing a guy who has been dead since 1853 (157 years) and yes you are making a factual statement regarding his OPINION on the matter. As this boils down to an opinion is does not support your opening post.

DOC said:
PhD. in astrophysics Dr. Hugh Ross claims there are about 2000 fulfilled prophecies in the Bible.
Click to expand...

At least this guy is still alive. First of all this is a fact about his OPINION regarding the prophecies. As can be seen in the Nostradamus craze, it is very easy to fit events into poetic or vaguely worded passages ONCE THE EVENTS HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED. This is called retro-dicting not predicting and is not prophecy. Besides as this boils down to his opinion this is not a fact supporting your opening post.

I will spell it out more clearly, yes you have posted some factual data (many times about other peoples opinions), however when it is evaluated it bears no relevance to supporting your claim regarding the NT. When people are exasperatedly say that you haven’t presented any facts. What they leaving off is ‘that support the opening post.’

ETA - ARG beaten by 30 minuts! I bow you your supperior skillz.
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
These facts weren't on the 1st page:

the fact that there is over 5000 New Testament manuscripts in existence compared to 7 manuscripts for Plato and 20 for famous Roman Historian Tacitus.

Sir William Mitchell Ramsay called gospel writer Luke a great historian with regard to facts that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.

The fact that there are 40 written sources for the life of Christ (31 Christian + 9 non-Christian) compared to 10 written sources (9 non-Christian + 1 Christian) for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the emperor during the life of Christ.

Christianity had spread all the way to Rome by peaceful means and Nero blamed the Christians in Rome for the Roman fire in 64 ad.-- 31 years after the death of Christ.

Jews have been converted to Christianity because of Isaiah Chapter 53 and at least one writer has claimed there are 25 fulfilled prophesies in that one chapter.

Most archaeologists believe Jesus' 1st century tomb is most probably directly under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

Oxford professor Thomas Arnold's statement regarding the evidence of Christ and the Resurrection and how he considered them to have more historical evidence then any other fact in history up to that point.

The Moral Argument,

The Cosmological Argument,

11 apostles suffered a martyrs death in spite of the fact it was recorded they acted cowardly and uncertain before the resurrection.

Simon Greenleaf, a founder of Harvard Law School, said the 4 Gospel accounts could be admitted in a court as evidence, and that divergent accounts are normal for eyewitnesses.

PhD. in astrophysics Dr. Hugh Ross claims there are about 2000 fulfilled prophecies in the Bible.
Click to expand...

Too bad we didn't have a new round of Bingo, We could have all been winners!


DOC said:
These facts weren't on the 1st page:
...

The Moral Argument,
Click to expand...
DOC, I am convinced you are a liar. A complete liar when you claimed to have taken a course on logic. It is impossible for someone to have studied the subject and confuse the difference between an argument and a fact.

But besides this, You are also the best counter argument against the moral argument:
joobz said:
It has been a continuing argument of mine that Objective morality causes people to behave immorally. Often, it has been argued that because we are moral, those morals come from god. But if we accept that premise, we accept the idea that we only need to follow the god rule book to be moral. We do not need to consider what our actions are. We only need to know that this is what god wants.

It removes responsibility from the individual and passes it off onto another. If we do not consider the idea of a moral source, than we are fully responsible for our actions and the consequences of those actions. There is no one else to blame.


Now, look at what DOC did when confronted with the consequences of his actions:



Did he take responsibility? Did he admit that there is a possibility he was wrong? No, of course not.

This is no accident. This is exactly the result of a mind set that is programmed to project moral responsibility on another party.
Click to expand...
 
That's something I've learned to do in this thread.

Imagine, the Ruler of the Two Lands is a better apologist than the christian.


Therefore, the writers of the Book of the Dead spoke the Truth.
 
DOC said:
No they haven't.
Click to expand...

DOC, this is an actual, genuine, sincere question.

Do you believe that the end justifies the means? Do you believe that being dishonest is OK if you are doing it for what you believe to be the right reasons?

If you choose not to answer, will you at least think about it? I assume that you are embarrassed to be posting things that are only deserving of scorn and derision.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom