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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Stilicho,

With respect, I suggest that you have not understood the point I was trying to make. Do you think that contamination occurred in the Jama case? Why or why not?

Chris

I don't see how it's relevant. Just pretend I'm one of those "juror like idiots".* That report says that the victim may not have been raped and there were no witnesses. So, possibly no crime and no other evidence.

We have far too little information in any of the articles on the Jama case to conclude that it is similar to the case against RS and AK. Did Jama tell the police that he was with the woman, covering his ears, while another man was raping her? Was she found locked in a room in his house? Did he have an accomplice who lied to the police and then told them Jama wasn't reading the Koran at the bedside of his dying father? Was he turning cartwheels in the police station?

Help me out here.

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* http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5569159&postcount=2659
 
It is up to Dr Stefanoni to back up her claim that DNA can be detected when blood cannot with an example from the literature. On page 369 of Darkness Descending, General Garofano said, “Did they open the knife to see if blood had dripped between the metal part of the handle and the plastic? No? Pity. That would have been a sure place to find blood if there was blood. Secondly, they say it was cleaned with bleach. If an object is cleaned with bleach, there is no DNA left. And if any were left there would be the same amount of DNA belonging to Amanda Knox as to Meredith Kercher. Next to nothing…So the fact that there is a lot of Amanda Knox's DNA and a little of Meredith's doesn't sound logical to me.”


It is not up to Stefanoni to prove something that is not contrary to any of the literature. I asked you to provide the proof that it is impossible to find DNA on a knife if all the blood has been removed. You speak of it as though this is a well established scientific principle. If that's the case, then it should be in the literature, or at the least, in forensic guidelines. Yet, all you seem to be able to do is throw a couple of scientists postulating 'opinions' at me...opinions which in your mind, don't require to be scientifically proven. Is that it?
 
Just like their trial was a new trial after being tried by Micheli...that went well ;)

Again...your reason for believing an appeal stands a chance when 18 judges have found them guilty, with a final 8 finding them guilty in a unanimous verdict after a full 11 month trial with every trick and argument the best defence in the country could offer? They'll get off with exactly the same arguments, simply because it's a different set of judges...if it doesn't work the first time, try try again...is that the grand master plan and the basis for your faith? Is that it?

Come on Katy, you're bright. Your mistake would be not to realise that so are we.
Now now, Micheli's report can hardly be described as a 'trial', can it? ;) Similarly, the only court which found them guilty was the last one, and all it will take is one court to overturn the verdict and it won't matter a jot what anyone has said before.

I've already said what I think about their chances in appeal - pretty good, based on the general discrediting of the forensics following the verdict. I suspect that the judge will do what the trial judge didn't and order an independent review of the forensic evidence, and if that comes back half as scathing as the public comments made by independent scientists on the subject (or even half as scathing as the independent experts appointed by Matteini were, and who testified for the defence in court) I would expect those two pieces of evidence to be dismissed. And without them, there's really not much of a case at all. Mignini's guilty verdict also provides a very convenient fall guy for the courts if they decide to overturn the original verdict.

Really though, what's the point in discussing it, since we're going to know for sure once the appeal happens? If you're so certain the verdict won't be overturned, why try and convince anyone? It looks to me more like you're a bit worried the verdict actually will be overturned and you're trying to convince yourself otherwise...
 
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Help me out here.

Sorry, apparently other jurisdictions don't conduct investigations by lying to witnesses claiming that they have video evidence clearly showing the suspect at the scene; threatening to charge the witness as an accessory if they don't change their story. That must be an Italian thing that you are going to have to figure out how to deal with on your own.
 
The appeal is essentially a new trial, Fulcanelli. Hence it is entirely possible for the court to consider the same evidence and to reach a different conclusion. The disgracing of Mignini won't harm their chances.

By the way, I asked this before, but has there been an official announcement that the verdict was unanimous? I've seen Vogt's report, but I understood we'd need to wait for the judge's report to know that for certain.


The charges against Mignini in a completely DIFFERENT matter will make absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to 'this' case whatsoever.

And now you're questioning if the verdict was unanimous or not? It's well established. How desperate are you?
 
Sorry, apparently other jurisdictions don't conduct investigations by lying to witnesses claiming that they have video evidence clearly showing the suspect at the scene; threatening to charge the witness as an accessory if they don't change their story. That must be an Italian thing that you are going to have to figure out how to deal with on your own.

Neither did this one, so I guess we're all happy.
 
I very much doubt Micheli handed down a sentence on other than conclusions based on training, experience judicial guidelines and common sense.

The accused were found guilty and sentenced to 20-plus years in jail. These are not speculative years but real-life years.

These sentences were conclusive, not speculative. He even cites the law code that stipulates time alotted for crimes of the type commited by the guilty parties here.

If there is fault at the December 4 guilty verdict, it points directly to the accused and the defence- for allowing this to be. Do not blame the prosecution for presenting a credible theory plus factual evidence to back it up. Do not blame the judges for accepting the obvious.

As much as you may not like it, the wheels of justice turned and justice has been served.
Micheli didn't hand down sentences to Knox and Sollecito, though. In their case, he was merely deciding whether or not there was enough evidence to send them trial. In many instances he's simply speculating as to what may have happened, in the same way as any of us might do on a forum. So quoting from his report as if it were factual is very misleading.

By the way, I'm still waiting for this 'credible theory' from the prosecution of which you speak.
 
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The charges against Mignini in a completely DIFFERENT matter will make absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to 'this' case whatsoever.

And now you're questioning if the verdict was unanimous or not? It's well established. How desperate are you?
I'm not questioning it, I'm simply asking for a source, since I've heard conflicting reports on the matter. You may well be right. Has there been an official announcement or does this come from a press report, and if so, which one? (Vogt's?)

Mignini is not as naive as you are, it seems; he's well aware of the influence one court case can have on the verdict in one another. Why do you think so many events which would technically have had no influence whatsoever on the trial were scheduled for very important dates within it? He even tried the same trick for his own verdict, announcing Amanda's possible slander charges a few days before it was announced...
 
Now now, Micheli's report can hardly be described as a 'trial', can it? ;) Similarly, the only court which found them guilty was the last one, and all it will take is one court to overturn the verdict and it won't matter a jot what anyone has said before.

I've already said what I think about their chances in appeal - pretty good, based on the general discrediting of the forensics following the verdict. I suspect that the judge will do what the trial judge didn't and order an independent review of the forensic evidence, and if that comes back half as scathing as the public comments made by independent scientists on the subject (or even half as scathing as the independent experts appointed by Matteini were, and who testified for the defence in court) I would expect those two pieces of evidence to be dismissed. And without them, there's really not much of a case at all. Mignini's guilty verdict also provides a very convenient fall guy for the courts if they decide to overturn the original verdict.

Really though, what's the point in discussing it, since we're going to know for sure once the appeal happens? If you're so certain the verdict won't be overturned, why try and convince anyone? It looks to me more like you're a bit worried the verdict actually will be overturned and you're trying to convince yourself otherwise...

Yes, it was a trial, or in effect a 'mini-trial'.

The 'only' court? Oh right...no biggie, 'only the last one', which is only the Court of Assize, with only 8 judges, which lasted only 11 months, which only had hundreds of witnesses and experts testify, which was only debated and fought by the best lawyers and experts in the land, which only examined all the evidence and which only came to a unanimous verdict. Oh you're so right, I see the light, their walking at the end of the appeal is as good as done...Amanda and Raffaele may as well start getting their bags packed now :rolleyes:

Worried it'll be overturned? If you think so.

The Mignini 'fallguy' theory? What idiot came up with that theory? Certainly not one who either understands reality, the case against Mignini, the Italian system or the strong case against Raffaele and Amanda. But anyway, you hang onto that if it makes you feel a little better.
 
Micheli didn't hand down sentences to Knox and Sollecito, though. In their case, he was merely deciding whether or not there was enough evidence to send them trial. In many instances he's simply speculating as to what may have happened, in the same way as any of us might do on a forum. So quoting from his report as if it were factual is very misleading.

By the way, I'm still waiting for this 'credible theory' from the prosecution of which you speak.

He did hand down a sentence to Rudy. And Rudy was convicted, as Micheli made clear, on the basis of his acting in concert with others to commit the crime. He may not have handed sentences down to Raffaele and Amanda, but he charged them and he handed down a JUDGEMENT. And since I have not seen any of the core conclusions or the arguments he used to reach those conclusions in his report successfully challenged by the defence, either then or since, his report still carries weight.
 
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I'm not questioning it, I'm simply asking for a source, since I've heard conflicting reports on the matter. You may well be right. Has there been an official announcement or does this come from a press report, and if so, which one? (Vogt's?)

Mignini is not as naive as you are, it seems; he's well aware of the influence one court case can have on the verdict in one another. Why do you think so many events which would technically have had no influence whatsoever on the trial were scheduled for very important dates within it? He even tried the same trick for his own verdict, announcing Amanda's possible slander charges a few days before it was announced...


Vogts source 'was' the jury. You can choose to stick your fingers in your ears and 'lalalalalala' until it's officially announced if you wish (what does that mean exactly...on a stage, with chorus girls in sequined leotards while the judge stands there booming it out over a mic to a crowd of thousands?) , but that's up to you. Good luck with that, denial might work for you. It hasn't done so well for Amanda and Raffaele.
 
Yes, it was a trial, or in effect a 'mini-trial'.

The 'only' court? Oh right...no biggie, 'only the last one', which is only the Court of Assize, with only 8 judges, which lasted only 11 months, which only had hundreds of witnesses and experts testify, which was only debated and fought by the best lawyers and experts in the land, which only examined all the evidence and which only came to a unanimous verdict. Oh you're so right, I see the light, their walking at the end of the appeal is as good as done...Amanda and Raffaele may as well start getting their bags packed now :rolleyes:

Worried it'll be overturned? If you think so.

The Mignini 'fallguy' theory? What idiot came up with that theory? Certainly not one who either understands reality, the case against Mignini, the Italian system or the strong case against Raffaele and Amanda. But anyway, you hang onto that if it makes you feel a little better.
I'm just giving my opinion, Fulcanelli. It doesn't make me 'feel a little better' that Mignini will take the fall for this (in fact, I think it's a little unfair, since he's part of a system which allowed a crazy conspiracy theorist like him to flourish), I'm just saying the impact I think his guilty verdict will have. On the other hand, Guede's sentence reduction wasn't particularly good news for Knox and Sollecito (though has now been overshadowed by Mignini, I think) and if he (Mignini) ends up being acquitted before their appeal, that will lessen their chances a little also. I have no idea if the latter could happen or not though, timewise.

I just genuinely think they have a good chance during the appeal. Many people were suggesting even before the verdict that their best chance lay in the appeal courts, in fact.
 
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Vogts source 'was' the jury. You can choose to stick your fingers in your ears and 'lalalalalala' until it's officially announced if you wish (what does that mean exactly...on a stage, with chorus girls in sequined leotards while the judge stands there booming it out over a mic to a crowd of thousands?) , but that's up to you. Good luck with that, denial might work for you. It hasn't done so well for Amanda and Raffaele.
So the source is Vogt. Excellent, thanks.
 
He did hand down a sentence to Rudy. And Rudy was convicted, as Micheli made clear, on the basis of his acting in concert with others to commit the crime. He may not have handed sentences down to Raffaele and Amanda, but he charged them and he handed down a JUDGEMENT. And since I have not seen any of the core conclusions or the arguments he used to reach those conclusions in his report successfully challenged by the defence, either then or since, his report still carries weight.
Micheli's speculations should not be repeated as if they were established fact, however, at least not in Knox and Sollecito's cases.
 
katy_did said:
Mignini is not as naive as you are, it seems; he's well aware of the influence one court case can have on the verdict in one another. Why do you think so many events which would technically have had no influence whatsoever on the trial were scheduled for very important dates within it? He even tried the same trick for his own verdict, announcing Amanda's possible slander charges a few days before it was announced...

Because the matters on which he is charged have absolutely NO bearing on this trial whatsoever. What do I mean by 'no bearing'? I mean they are completely unrelated. If his charges involved falsifying evidence against people or destroying evidence that could exonerate people, then they 'may' have some bearing on the other trials he has performed, since what he did in other cases, he may have also done in those and that would very much change the perspective on whether those people may actually be guilty or not. However, the nature of what he has been charged with...unlawful phone taps...has no bearing on Raffaele and Amanda, even if he had employed unlawful phone taps in their case (which he did not) since they were not convicted on the basis of any phone taps.

The second point. His office would not allow him to continue his work as a prosecutor, if for one moment they considered the charges in the other affair would throw the slightest doubt on any current and future cases.

The third point. Raffaele, Rudy and Amanda were not only prosecuted by Mignini, but by Comodi, whose record is completely unblemished.

Fourth, regardless of the charges against Mignini, he is highly respected in Perigia, both by the general population and more importantly, by the Perugian judiciary.

Finally, the Italian system simply does not work in that way. Your Mignini 'fallguy' theory amounts to little more then tentative postulations that have been offered by, for the most part, certain Anglo journalists and bloggers who don't have the faintest understanding either of the charges against Mignini, the strength of the case against the couple or the Italian system.
 
I'm just giving my opinion, Fulcanelli. It doesn't make me 'feel a little better' that Mignini will take the fall for this (in fact, I think it's a little unfair, since he's part of a system which allowed a crazy conspiracy theorist like him to flourish), I'm just saying the impact I think his guilty verdict will have. On the other hand, Guede's sentence reduction wasn't particularly good news for Knox and Sollecito (though has now been overshadowed by Mignini, I think) and if he (Mignini) ends up being acquitted before their appeal, that will lessen their chances a little also. I have no idea if the latter could happen or not though, timewise.

I just genuinely think they have a good chance during the appeal. Many people were suggesting even before the verdict that their best chance lay in the appeal courts, in fact.

Exactly 'who' are these 'many' people? FOA members? Family members? Sympathetic Anglo news anchors, reporters and bloggers?


If you think so then. Good luck with that.
 
Micheli's speculations should not be repeated as if they were established fact, however, at least not in Knox and Sollecito's cases.

His 'judgement' you mean? And it is clear his judgement has been ratified by the Court of Assize who found the pair guilty on all charges except one in a unanimous verdict.

You can ignore the Micheli Report if you wish, but it doesn't change the fact that what is layed out in his report provides us with an excellent incite into exactly why the pair were found unanimously guilty.
 
Sorry, apparently other jurisdictions don't conduct investigations by lying to witnesses claiming that they have video evidence clearly showing the suspect at the scene; threatening to charge the witness as an accessory if they don't change their story. That must be an Italian thing that you are going to have to figure out how to deal with on your own.


Dan O. How certain of this are you?

Do you really want to try and defend the position that LE in the U.S (and elsewhere) doesn't ever or even often mislead and lie to suspects in an effort to elicit confession or prompt mistakes that can be pursued further? That they don't use intimidation and even threats as a tool to soften up uncooperative witnesses or to entice desired testimony by offering reduced punishment?

Witnesses, suspects, defendants, and convicts all have a large and sometimes bewildering array of rights guaranteed by the American legal system, but I think you will be hard pressed to prove that the rights to never be deceived or intimidated are among them. This may be unfortunate. I happen to think that it probably is, but that is the reality.

I suspect that you are fully aware of this, which makes such pronouncements as this one even more unfortunate. If such ridiculous hyperbole, distortion and undisguised appeals to xenophobia had not been so much of the content of the outcry against Knox's conviction I probably never would have been encouraged to investigate the facts of the case on my own. I would likely have accepted the received wisdom of the Knox partisans in the media and taken her innocence for granted. Instead I have come to the opposite conclusion. I have gained the impression from this thread that I am not alone in such a reaction.

Perhaps your strategies in her defense should be reconsidered.
 
Because the matters on which he is charged have absolutely NO bearing on this trial whatsoever. What do I mean by 'no bearing'? I mean they are completely unrelated. If his charges involved falsifying evidence against people or destroying evidence that could exonerate people, then they 'may' have some bearing on the other trials he has performed, since what he did in other cases, he may have also done in those and that would very much change the perspective on whether those people may actually be guilty or not. However, the nature of what he has been charged with...unlawful phone taps...has no bearing on Raffaele and Amanda, even if he had employed unlawful phone taps in their case (which he did not) since they were not convicted on the basis of any phone taps.

The second point. His office would not allow him to continue his work as a prosecutor, if for one moment they considered the charges in the other affair would throw the slightest doubt on any current and future cases.

The third point. Raffaele, Rudy and Amanda were not only prosecuted by Mignini, but by Comodi, whose record is completely unblemished.

Fourth, regardless of the charges against Mignini, he is highly respected in Perigia, both by the general population and more importantly, by the Perugian judiciary.

Finally, the Italian system simply does not work in that way. Your Mignini 'fallguy' theory amounts to little more then tentative postulations that have been offered by, for the most part, certain Anglo journalists and bloggers who don't have the faintest understanding either of the charges against Mignini, the strength of the case against the couple or the Italian system.

This bit ceases to amaze me.

Katy apparently still believes the FoA line about this being an Italian conspiracy against Knox and that due to American pressure, somehow the Appellate court will decide that the best course of action is to exonerate Knox and use Mignini as the fallguy for this.

What she, and those like her, fail to realize is that this is not, and has not been, a conspiracy against an American. There is no conspiracy involving the Prosecution, the Italian legal system, the forensics teams, etc.

Let me repeat that with some emphasis added:

There is no conspiracy involving the Prosecution, the Italian legal system, the forensics teams, etc.

Therefore, it follows that there is no need for a "fall guy", regardless of how much one might wish to believe as much.

Therefore, it follows that the forensics results are to be examined as well as the rest of the evidence. Once we have trimmed off all the various possible explanations, the explanation that remains, however improbably you might imagine/desire it to be, is the truth.

Here we have a mountain of evidence with the closest thing to a refutation being "well, it's the Italians, they don't know what they're doing" or references to other cases elsewhere in the world that don't necessarily apply, or smugly vague accusations of incompetence on the one hand tempered by competence by the same people.

So, we have Amanda's bloody shoeprint in Filomena's room. No reasonable explanation has been offered for how it got there other than that Amanda herself left the mark.

We have Sollecito not only admitting that the knife came into contact with Meredith, but making up a story to excuse it. A story that his co-defendant exposed.

We have Sollecito's DNA on a bra clasp that was hidden underneath the body. A clasp that, while it was retrieved at a later date, had absolutely no other means of coming into contact with Sollecito's DNA.

We're supposed to accept that Amanda tells the truth when it would exonerate her, but she was confused about everything that happened. And everyone else was lying if they said anything incriminating Amanda, while telling the truth if it's something that can be used to her benefit.

Halides would have us believe that the bleach used to clean the knife would have destroyed every bit of DNA-containing skin cells...and yet in a lab where the Technicians are thoroughly trained in decontamination procedures, the bleach didn't manage to kill all the DNA from Sollecito. This juxtaposition is not the only he presents.

The DNA evidence against Guede has not been challenged on the same lines as that against Sollecito and Knox. Not one person has claimed that Guede's DNA was mishandled, or contaminated. Not one. So while we're expected to accept that the forensics team was completely incompetent with Knox and Sollecito DNA, they were completely competent with Guede's.



This thread needs to be moved to CT or something...the "arguments" presented by those on Amanda's side have become utterly pathetic and self-contradictory, requiring a massive conspiracy to be accurate.

Lie to yourselves all you want (Kestrel, Dan O., Halides, Lane, Matthew, Katy, et al), but it's apparent that you're in denial and failing miserably at attempts to rationalize what you want to be true. No different from 9/11 Truthers, UFOlogists, anti-Vaxers, the religious, et al.
 
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