Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[katy_did]

If we ignore all the testimony from all the witnesses, perhaps. Why should we do that?

What witness testimony are you talking about here? I'm talking about Filomena's claim to have arrived around 1. You must be meaning something different?

 

[katy_did]

Lets look, shall we?



Didn't think so



No, she didn't. See post #3366.

You are not doing your case any favours here by repeating such assertions.

*sigh* As I said, I was using the word in the same way as the pro-guilt folk do when discussing Amanda's testimony. I was attempting to show how ridiculous it is to talk about memory lapses as 'lies' - but that if we are to do so (and if we are to assume similar memory lapses are evidence of Amanda's propensity to lie) we should be consistent and do the same for Filomena.

You can choose to believe me, or not; it is, of course, entirely up to you.

 

[stilicho]

I'm just taking the lead from the people who see every little thing as evidence that Amanda and Raffaele are 'lying', I guess (wonder what people would have said if Amanda had been a whole 30 minutes out in her estimate of when a phone call happened, as Filomena was? I'm sure everyone would have just understood it as a normal lapse in memory. Not.)

Oh dear. Every little thing?

There are two very very big lies that lead to their arrests, katy_did: (1) lying about being at a party while Meredith was being murdered and (2) falsely naming Patrick as the murderer.

Everything else they lied about stems from those two rather 'not little' things.

When a suspect establishes himself as a liar then his statements have to be viewed with scepticism. There is no way around this.

When we come to the sequence of events surrounding the discovery of the body, we have an evasive explanation from RS about the calls to his sister and to the Carabinieri, and a complete blank-out from AK about her call to her mother. On the basis of this evasion and complete avoidance, we're to suddenly figure that it is the Postal Police and other people who are lying, according to your proposal.

This doesn't follow at all. While you may have convinced yourself of this, you would have major difficulties convincing a courtroom or any disinterested observer. Can you at least understand why very few people are willing to accept your version?

Please, also, for the benefit of those not acquainted with the testimony, place the words of those you claim said things in quotes. An example is this:

Yet two witnesses stated that not only did he step into the room, he walked over and lifted the quilt from Meredith...

Instead of that format, state something like this:

In his written statement of DD-MMM-YYYY, Mr X said this about Y: "The officer lifted the quilt and knelt beside the body to look for a pulse."

I saves a lot of energy spent quibbling.

 

[Fulcanelli]

No, Filomena said 'around 1', not before. Are you saying Filomena's friends arrived at 12:46, and Filomena and Paola at 1?

Just before 1. As for the exact time Filomena's friends arrived, that isn't known for certain, but it was a good deal before Filomena's and Paola's arrival.

Of course it exists. No, I don't think the defence would present footage which didn't show anything, oddly enough. Unless the camera was on consistently between 12:20 and 12:40, the prosecution could simply claim the police arrived during one of the blank periods. What footage there was, obviously didn't show them.

What do you mean 'of course it exists', why would it exist, have you 'seen' it? You do realise, the camera doesn't film continuously, but only when someone moves in the garage right? If there was footage that didn't show them, that would also be included since it would prove that they did not arrive during those times.

So you are now claiming they did dispute it? Can I take it you agree with Fiona, then, that the images on the CCTV did not show the postal police?

Now you are using a straw man. You claimed they didn't dispute it. I made the point...how do you know they didn't? You can pack the sophistry in.

Yes I agree with Fiona.

Were there three members of the postal police? I was under the impression there were only two.

There were the two postal police and the controller back at base who dispatched them and received their hail they'd arrived.

Battistelli lied in court, He's hardly reliable now, is he? And given the choice between eyewitness testimony and objective facts like cell phone records and CCTV footage, I would personally go for the latter. Your mileage may vary, obviously.

Again you make this accusation.

Eye witness testimony is fantastic? Great. Three eye witnesses place Amanda and Raffaele at the cottage on the night of Meredith's murder. I suppose now we can all agree they are guilty.

 

[Fulcanelli]

And given the choice between eyewitness testimony and objective facts like cell phone records and CCTV footage, I would personally go for the latter. Your mileage may vary, obviously

And what of Raffaele's lies he was on the computer all night, proved wrong by his computer record? What of the lie that they both slept in past 10 am the next morning when the computer and phone shows that they, or at least one of them was up and active at 5:30 am? What of Amanda waking her mother in the middle of the night to supposedly shriek the alarm, then claiming not to remember the call? What about their turning both their phones off the night of the murder, when they'd never done so before?

 

[Fiona]

*sigh* As I said, I was using the word in the same way as the pro-guilt folk do when discussing Amanda's testimony. I was attempting to show how ridiculous it is to talk about memory lapses as 'lies' - but that if we are to do so (and if we are to assume similar memory lapses are evidence of Amanda's propensity to lie) we should be consistent and do the same for Filomena.

You can choose to believe me, or not; it is, of course, entirely up to you.

Yes I can choose whether to believe you, that is true.

 

[Kestrel]

Did Sophie not revise her statement to say she arrived home around 20:55?

At 20:56, there was a call from Meredith's phone to her mother that cut off almost immediately. My theory is that shortly after leaving Sophie, Meredith tried to call her mother. The connection dropped because Meredith was walking down narrow lanes with high walls. A place where bad cell reception could be expected.

Meredith's journey home would have come down the alley on left in this view, then continued down the street to the right.

ETA: Meredith didn't try to call her mother again. Perhaps indicating she was killed shortly after arriving home?

 

[Alt+F4]

And what of Raffaele's lies he was on the computer all night, proved wrong by his computer record? What of the lie that they both slept in past 10 am the next morning when the computer and phone shows that they, or at least one of them was up and active at 5:30 am? What of Amanda waking her mother in the middle of the night to supposedly shriek the alarm, then claiming not to remember the call? What about their turning both their phones off the night of the murder, when they'd never done so before?

And the whooper of them all....RS's lie about pricking MK with the big knife the week before . I also think that AK's explaination for the mop is a lie too.

 

[katy_did]

OK, since we're unlikely to come to much agreement on the issue of the 112 calls, I've put together timelines illustrating each theory.

First, Bongiorno's timeline, which takes into account the cell phone records, CCTV pictures, the police log (which suggested either the police left at 12:48, or that the second phone was only reported at 12:48), and the testimony from Filomena and her friends (they arrived 'around 1', a few minutes after Luca and friend). I disregard Battistelli's claim to have arrived at 12:35. I'll assume a 5 minute leeway in Filomena's stated arrival time. I also assume some leeway for the time at which the door was broken down, estimating it was between 13:15 and 13:20 to accomodate Amanda's 13:24 call to her mother which was likely made shortly afterwards.

12:47 - Amanda phones her mother
12:50 - Raffaele phones his sister
12:51 - Raffaele phones the carabinieri
12:54 - Raffaele phones the carabinieri

12:56 - the postal police arrive
12:56-13:01 - the police talk to Amanda and Raffaele, and ask Amanda to write down Meredith's phone numbers.
13:00 - Meredith's phone is activated after Amanda writes down her number.
13:01 - Filomena's friends arrive, and see Amanda, Raffaele and the postal police standing around the table with the phones and the post-it note on it.
13:03 - Filomena and her friend arrive

13:03 - [13:15-13:20] - The group check Filomena's room and the bathroom, then gather outside Meredith's door and decide to break it down.
13:24 - Amanda calls her mother to tell her that 'a foot' has been found in the room. We can assume this was soon after the door was broken down.

The following timeline is based on Fiona and Fulcanelli's belief that the people in the CCTV footage are not the postal police. It therefore disregards the CCTV times, and relies instead on Battistelli's claim to have arrived at 12:35. It also assumes quite a liberal interpretation both of Filomena's claim to have arrived 'around 1', and of the fact there were 'a few minutes' between Filomena's arrival and that of her friends.

12:35 - the postal police arrive
12:35-12:45 - the postal police talk to Amanda and Raffaele, and ask Amanda to write down Meredith's numbers.
12:45 - Filomena's friends arrive
12:46 - Amanda and Raffaele disappear for 10 minutes to make phone calls
12:47 - Amanda phones her mother
12:50 - Raffaele phones his sister
12:51 - Raffaele phones the carabinieri
12:54 - Raffaele phones the carabinieri
12:54 - Filomena and friend arrive; they see A and R exiting Amanda's room a couple of minutes later. This is the latest they can possibly have arrived in order to see the latter happen.
13:00 - Meredith's phone is activated (why, when Amanda gave them her number 20 minutes earlier?)
12:54-13:15 - The group check out Filomena's room and the bathroom, and decide to break down Meredith's door.

This timeline assumes the postal police spent 10 minutes talking to Amanda and Raffaele initially; that Filomena's friends also spend 10 minutes on their own talking to the postal police (something which you would think one of the four present would have mentioned...?) and that the group then spent a further 20 minutes looking around the house before deciding to break the door down. It all seems implausibly leisurely to me, and it is not backed by the objective cell phone/CCTV records, merely by Battistelli's words.

However, these are the two timelines as far as I can make it out from the posts arguing against the first timeline. People can make up their own mind from this, I guess.

 

[katy_did]

Yes I can choose whether to believe you, that is true.

Knock yourself out.

 

[katy_did]

At 20:56, there was a call from Meredith's phone to her mother that cut off almost immediately. My theory is that shortly after leaving Sophie, Meredith tried to call her mother. The connection dropped because Meredith was walking down narrow lanes with high walls. A place where bad cell reception could be expected.

Meredith's journey home would have come down the alley on left in this view, then continued down the street to the right.

ETA: Meredith didn't try to call her mother again. Perhaps indicating she was killed shortly after arriving home?

That's a very good point about the narrow lanes. I've also heard the theory that the call was interrupted by Guede when Meredith got home (perhaps if she'd seen the break-in and tried to call her mother to ask what she should do, as Amanda did the next day?). It's a little early, but within the bounds of possibility taking into account that Sophie's estimated arrival time is obviously pretty rough, and unlikely to line up exactly with the CCTV time. If the CCTV footage is of Meredith, as the police suggested, this would mean she was outside the cottage at around 20:55, which would also line up with her having been inside making the call at 20:56.

I like your theory, though - certainly, the fact she didn't attempt to make the call again (which you would think she would have done shortly after arriving home?) is another suggestion that the attack happened soon after she arrived home, before she had the chance to place the call again.

 

[Fulcanelli]

First, Bongiorno's timeline,

Ahh, Bongiono's Timeline. 'nuff said.

 

[Fiona]

They are both out there for consideration Fulcanelli. It is for everyone to decide what they think is plausible. No need to spin for either position

 

[Jungle Jim]

I am confused as why there is such a problem determining the timeline for the events of mid-day on Nov. 2nd. Since the car park clock is unreliable (is it fast, is it slow?), why not disregard it altogether? You still have possibly the most well documented 30 minutes in the history of Perugia. The following events (in no particular order) can, and should, be accurately documented:

Postal police dispatched to cottage – time noted in dispatcher’s log
Postal police notify dispatcher of arrival at cottage - time noted in dispatcher’s log
Amanda phones her mother – cell phone records
Raffaele phones his sister – cell phone records
Raffaele phones the carabinieri – cell phone records
Raffaele phones the carabinieri – cell phone records
Filomena's friends arrive – each gives their best recollection
Filomena and her friend arrive - each gives their best recollection
Body discovered, Postal Police inform dispatcher - time noted in dispatcher’s log

Am I wrong in assuming that the dispatcher’s log book and the cell phone records were introduced as evidence during the trial?

 

[Jungle Jim]

Further: Wouldn't both Amanda's and Filomena's cell phones establish exactly when they communicated with each other?

 

[Jungle Jim]

If it has been established that there was a call from Meredith’s phone to her mother at 20:56 then that must have occurred after Meredith parted from Sophie; otherwise Sophie (or one of the other girlfriends) would have mentioned that Meredith tried to call her mom. Therefore, the call was placed either during the remainder of her (five minute?) walk home or while in the cottage. In either case, she was home no later than 21:00 (give a minute or two). While it is possible that the attack on Meredith occurred shortly after arriving home (are we talking minutes?) it is by no means certain.

 

[Kestrel]

That's a very good point about the narrow lanes. I've also heard the theory that the call was interrupted by Guede when Meredith got home (perhaps if she'd seen the break-in and tried to call her mother to ask what she should do, as Amanda did the next day?). It's a little early, but within the bounds of possibility taking into account that Sophie's estimated arrival time is obviously pretty rough, and unlikely to line up exactly with the CCTV time. If the CCTV footage is of Meredith, as the police suggested, this would mean she was outside the cottage at around 20:55, which would also line up with her having been inside making the call at 20:56.

The police view of the CCTV footage is that the figure walks to the cottage at 20:43. For this time to be correct and the figure to be Meredith, she had to leave Robyn's place at 20:35 or earlier. A fair amount earlier that the times given by both Robyn and Sophie. And Meredith would have been at the cottage for at least 10 minutes before attempting to call her mother.

I like your theory, though - certainly, the fact she didn't attempt to make the call again (which you would think she would have done shortly after arriving home?) is another suggestion that the attack happened soon after she arrived home, before she had the chance to place the call again.

The call from Meredith's phone to Abbey Bank around 22:00 is an indication that her phone was no longer in her control. The bank phone number didn't include the 44 prefix for the UK, so it's doubtful that Meredith routinely contacted her bank that way since arriving in Italy. The Micheli Report theory is that the call was triggered by accident while the phone was in a pants pocket. That is possible, but who's pants pocket was it in by then?

 

[Fulcanelli]

the police view of the cctv footage is that the figure walks to the cottage at 20:43. For this time to be correct and the figure to be meredith, she had to leave robyn's place at 20:35 or earlier. A fair amount earlier that the times given by both robyn and sophie. And meredith would have been at the cottage for at least 10 minutes before attempting to call her mother.



The call from meredith's phone to abbey bank around 22:00 is an indication that her phone was no longer in her control. The bank phone number didn't include the 44 prefix for the uk, so it's doubtful that meredith routinely contacted her bank that way since arriving in italy. The micheli report theory is that the call was triggered by accident while the phone was in a pants pocket. That is possible, but who's pants pocket was it in by then?

22:13.

 

[Fiona]

The only things I will take issue with in the timelines are these:

Timeline 1.

1. You are relying on cell phone records so we should not omit Filomena's call to Amanada at 12:34, because in that call Knox told her she had already called the police, according to Filomena's testimony

2. RS and AK came out of the bedroom when Filomena arrived: I do not see they have time nor occasion to go in there on this account.

3. The police spoke to their HQ (to Bartolozzi at 1:00 pm) and by that time Filomena had already arrived because they knew that the phone registered to her was actually Meredith's.



Timeline 2
1. I have no idea what time Luca and his friend arrived: any time between 12:35 and 12:45 is possible: there presumably had to be time for them to be told what was going on at least to some extent.

2. I cannot pinpoint Filomena's arrival so precisely. She saw AK and RS coming out of the bedroom but I do not know what time that was - between 12:54 and 1:00 certainly

3. AK says she showed the police the odd things in the house when they first arrived

As to it being leisurely: each will judge for themselves. 10 minutes talking to AK and RS seems far from leisurely to me. AK testified that she had difficulty explaining to the police what her concerns, because of the language problem: she said she told them in a mix of English and Italian. She says the same in her e-mail and makes little mention of what RS was doing but I assume he was translating? She says she showed them the blood and looked into the bathroom with the **** in it (which she now could not see). She also explained abut the locked door and how unusual that was: and about trying to break it down. The police had to explain why they were there and ask about the phones: Knox had to give them the phone numbers (which were written on a post it note by the time Luca and his friend arrived and she presumably had to say that both phones were Meredith's though the first one was registered to Filomena. I don't think 10 minutes is a long time for all of that if it was indeed 10 minutes.

When Luca and his friend arrived they would have to be introduced and explain why they were there: they would have to be told what the police were there for and also to hear what RS and AK were worried about. I found it surprising that RS and AK went into the bedroom but it occurs to me that with the language problem the police would perhaps focus on the Italians who had just arrived, and that would allow them to drift off: we know they did, because they came out of the bedroom when Filomena arrived. A minimum of 7 minutes? Again, that is not that implausible to me. People often say that 2 minutes is a very long time and it is if it is for the silence at the cenotaph, for example: or when you are waiting for your egg to boil, and you are starving. But it is not long at all in a conversation and certainly not in a conversation with a language barrier and two different and serious agendas to be discussed.

Filomana and her friend arrive sometime between 12:54 and 1:00. Filomena now has to be told what has happened properly:she has to challenge Amanda's assertion that it is not unusual for Meredith's door to be locked; she has to explain about the sim card (Knox did not manage to do that, it seems).

Meredith's phone was activated at 1:00. I am not sure what is odd about that? it was delivered to the police station and logged at 12:46. So they switched it on while examining it? Seems reasonable to me, though it is well known I am rubbish at what phones do and do not do.

 

[piktor]

Hmmm... Battistelli said he didn't step into the room, because he'd said he didn't in his initial report. Yet two witnesses stated that not only did he step into the room, he walked over and lifted the quilt from Meredith (something which is entirely understandable, given the circumstances - is it likely he would just have presumed she was dead without checking?).

You're either saying the witnesses were lying, or that the police were. The witnesses have no reason to lie. The police, on the other hand...

I distinctly remember watching a video of the victim's room and a male detective lifting the quilt and looking at the victim for a moment. The detective was standing to the left of the victim, near the wall with a window.

I cannot confirm if this video was shot by the first detectives on the scene or if the video was shot by the Scientific Police at a later time.