Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Alt+F4]

When people cannot accept that the Postal Police arrived prior to Raffaele's 112 calls, based on the available evidence, then no progress may be made.

What difference does it make when the phone calls were made?

 

[HumanityBlues]

What difference does it make when the phone calls were made?

Agreed. All this conversation about stuff after the murder that doesn't matter. Cartweels... Calling the postal police later... It doesn't seem like anyone has proven anything either way. All these nonprobative distractions about evidence that doesn't really seem relevant or provable of anything at all. You'd think at least on a skeptic site people would be focusing on evidence that actually mattered. When did all this stuff supposedly occur anyways? 12 hours after the murder?

How about this. Let's start from point 1. What time did Meredith die? Isn't that in dispute as well? That seems a lot more important than cartweels and phone calls to the postal police.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Agreed. All this conversation about stuff after the murder that doesn't matter. Cartweels... Calling the postal police later... It doesn't seem like anyone has proven anything either way. All these nonprobative distractions about evidence that doesn't really seem relevant or provable of anything at all. You'd think at least on a skeptic site people would be focusing on evidence that actually mattered. When did all this stuff supposedly occur anyways? 12 hours after the murder?

How about this. Let's start from point 1. What time did Meredith die? Isn't that in dispute as well? That seems a lot more important than cartweels and phone calls to the postal police.

The calls to the police are used by the pro-guilty side to argue that Knox and Sollecito only reported the break-in when they did because the Police were already there - i.e. a cover their ass action. The scenario could be, easily, presented that Meredith's door was unlocked until the Postal Police arrived. Nothing indicates the door was locked all night. But as there's no evidence either way, I won't attempt to defend this scenario. It's just another wild speculation - the same as most (ok, all) pro-innocence posters in this thread have done and continue to do.


ETA: Realistically, all the other phone calls made by Amanda and Raeffaele that morning could very easily have been orchestrated and thus do nothing to show innocence or guilt.

 

[Kestrel]

Agreed. All this conversation about stuff after the murder that doesn't matter. Cartweels... Calling the postal police later... It doesn't seem like anyone has proven anything either way. All these nonprobative distractions about evidence that doesn't really seem relevant or provable of anything at all. You'd think at least on a skeptic site people would be focusing on evidence that actually mattered. When did all this stuff supposedly occur anyways? 12 hours after the murder?

How about this. Let's start from point 1. What time did Meredith die? Isn't that in dispute as well? That seems a lot more important than cartweels and phone calls to the postal police.

Meredith left the house of Robyn Butterworth at about 20:55 on the night of Nov. 1. She walked with Sophie Purton for about 5 minutes, then left Sophie to walk the rest of the way to the cottage alone. This would also be about a 5 minute walk. Knowing that she was killed at the cottage, it had to have been after 21:05.

 

[HumanityBlues]

The calls to the police are used by the pro-guilty side to argue that Knox and Sollecito only reported the break-in when they did because the Police were already there - i.e. a cover their ass action.

I'm aware. I'm just saying, there seems to be a really avoidance of both sides to discuss the actual murder. All this nonsense after the fact. While we're making a list, why don't we make a list of evidence that doesn't matter. Put me down for cartweels.

 

[Fiona]

Issue| Position 1| Position 2| Position 3| Importance Knox to police station 5/11 | Summoned| Invited| Own choice| None at all
RS call to sister 2/11 | = to calling the police|for advice only| ?| None because he did call the police a minute later
Cartwheels at police station |AK did cartwheels spontaneously| AK did cartwheels at the behest of the police| AK did not do cartwheels| None at all

There you go. Anything else ?

 

[stilicho]

I'm aware. I'm just saying, there seems to be a really avoidance of both sides to discuss the actual murder. All this nonsense after the fact. While we're making a list, why don't we make a list of evidence that doesn't matter. Put me down for cartweels.

TJMK has all the evidence catalogued for easy reference. There's a lot of reading to catch up on.

ETA: The coroner said roughly 11 pm 01 NOV 2007. A defence witness argued 10:30 pm or earlier. Hope that helps.

 

[colonelhall]

I've been away for a while, but it looks as if the phone call issue still hasn't been resolved. Talking about the phones, have you discussed the possible reason for their removal from the flat?
My understanding is that they were thrown over the wall into obscurity and that it was either stupidity or poor aim that saw them land in the garden below. I was reflecting on why the phones were taken and then disposed of and then realised that AK and RS needed to show that they had tried to contact Amanda. They could not have done this, if her phone was going to be heard in the flat. Seems to be the simplest explanation, but I am sure that you have wound this one up a long way back.

 

[HumanityBlues]

There you go. Anything else ?

Thanks Fiona.

Stilcho, I will look at that site thanks. I've seen it linked here before. It seems to have a stench of "truthiness" to it though ya gotta admit....

Edit: Article from Times of London from early on in the case. Talks about time of death: Times of London.

Edit 2: Hey, if anyone's interested. Was worried about the site policy on attribution for such a long quote, but I don't think it's a big deal--From the Times of London Article

"Why is the time at which Meredith died of such importance to the investigation?

A post-mortem examination originally put the time of Ms Kercher's death at between midnight and 2am on Friday, November 2, but detectives are now focusing on a theory that she was killed several hours earlier, after analysis of food in her stomach suggested that she had died between 8.30pm and 11pm.

Sophie Purton and Robyn Butterworth, two friends of Meredith, told police that they had an early supper of pizza, ice cream and coffee with Ms Kercher at friend's flat "at about 6pm". They drank only water (forensic tests on Meredith's body have confirmed this). They then watched a film on DVD, "The Notebook", until "about 9pm".

Sophie has testified that she then walked home with Meredith, but their ways parted and she went to her own home, leaving Meredith to walk the 500 yards to the cottage in Viale Sant' Antonio. This would put Meredith's return to the cottage at about 9.15pm.

Pathologists at first put the time of Meredith's death at between midnight and 2am. They later revised this, however, because an analysis of the food in her stomach, which was only partly digested, suggesting she was killed sooner after eating her meal. Investigators are reportedly to re-question Sophie and Robyn to double check the time they had supper. The provisional time of death, meanwhile, is between 9pm and 11pm, although the fatal blow could have been struck earlier since Meredith bled to death slowly."

P.S. If people aren't interested in this particular topic, I'll happily go back to making fun of psychics on other threads and return if people start talking about this again. : )

 

[Kestrel]

Thanks Fiona.

Stilcho, I will look at that site thanks. I've seen it linked here before. It seems to have a stench of "truthiness" to it though ya gotta admit....

They are also rather quick to ban posters who disagree with the proprietors theory of the crime.

 

[stilicho]

I'm aware. I'm just saying, there seems to be a really avoidance of both sides to discuss the actual murder. All this nonsense after the fact. While we're making a list, why don't we make a list of evidence that doesn't matter. Put me down for cartweels.

There's something else that you've missed in your assessment of this thread, too.

The thread was begun not as an investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher. (Her name doesn't appear in the tag cloud.) It was begun as a condemnation of the Italian justice system conveyed to us through the voice of a powerful PR machine hired by the family of one of the culprits.

That issue has possibly not been laid to rest yet. Some are not yet satisfied after 80+ pages that the Italian justice system is competent enough to assess the facts in a run-of-the-mill homicide case like this one.

Examining all the evidence on an internet forum thousands of kilometres from the crimescene is a fool's errand.

 

[stilicho]

Thanks Fiona.

Stilcho, I will look at that site thanks. I've seen it linked here before. It seems to have a stench of "truthiness" to it though ya gotta admit....

Edit: Article from Times of London from early on in the case. Talks about time of death: Times of London.

Edit 2: Hey, if anyone's interested. Was worried about the site policy on attribution for such a long quote, but I don't think it's a big deal--From the Times of London Article

"Why is the time at which Meredith died of such importance to the investigation?

A post-mortem examination originally put the time of Ms Kercher's death at between midnight and 2am on Friday, November 2, but detectives are now focusing on a theory that she was killed several hours earlier, after analysis of food in her stomach suggested that she had died between 8.30pm and 11pm.

Sophie Purton and Robyn Butterworth, two friends of Meredith, told police that they had an early supper of pizza, ice cream and coffee with Ms Kercher at friend's flat "at about 6pm". They drank only water (forensic tests on Meredith's body have confirmed this). They then watched a film on DVD, "The Notebook", until "about 9pm".

Sophie has testified that she then walked home with Meredith, but their ways parted and she went to her own home, leaving Meredith to walk the 500 yards to the cottage in Viale Sant' Antonio. This would put Meredith's return to the cottage at about 9.15pm.

Pathologists at first put the time of Meredith's death at between midnight and 2am. They later revised this, however, because an analysis of the food in her stomach, which was only partly digested, suggesting she was killed sooner after eating her meal. Investigators are reportedly to re-question Sophie and Robyn to double check the time they had supper. The provisional time of death, meanwhile, is between 9pm and 11pm, although the fatal blow could have been struck earlier since Meredith bled to death slowly."

P.S. If people aren't interested in this particular topic, I'll happily go back to making fun of psychics on other threads and return if people start talking about this again. : )

What's the question?

 

[HumanityBlues]

Examining all the evidence on an internet forum thousands of kilometres from the crimescene is a fool's errand.

Probably true. But then why when people examine evidence in the forums, do they focus on cartweels (which only proves Amanda Knox is an idiot)? It only seems to justify the OP's point.

 

[Fiona]

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/ar...-timeline-of-knoxs-murder-of-meredith-kercher

The time of death is not certain and I have seen several different accounts. My link is the final timeline proposed by the prosecutor Manuela Comodi at the end of AK and RS trial.

I do not know what certainty there is: the prosecutor said that this account was based on testimony and also on forensics. It differs from the earlier reports in several respects and of course we have not seen all of the evidence it is based on

 

[Fiona]

Agreed. All this conversation about stuff after the murder that doesn't matter. Cartweels... Calling the postal police later... It doesn't seem like anyone has proven anything either way. All these nonprobative distractions about evidence that doesn't really seem relevant or provable of anything at all. You'd think at least on a skeptic site people would be focusing on evidence that actually mattered. When did all this stuff supposedly occur anyways? 12 hours after the murder?

Just on this point and further to what Stilicho posted:

It does depend on what you think this thread is for. I became interested because what was being reported was so far from believable that I wondered what was going on. I started digging about with no knowledge of it at all: I had never heard of the case or any of the people involved.

I have never had any interest in "true crime" as literature of even pop psychology or any of that stuff. To me it has always seemed to be an exercise in futility at best: ghoulish at worst. So I have no experience of looking into these things at all.

I do have a low level but chronic concern about the power of the media in general. And that is what kept me in this thread. It is a great example of what I see as a wider problem. I also have an interest in how people reach their conclusions and what role critical thinking can play in that: especially since we are so privileged in terms of the information we can access compared with people in the past.

This thread has been very instructive in many ways. I have learned a bit. for example about the Italian legal system. It seems to me that the thread has also shown how strong is the desire to turn everything into "sides" rather than to look at the evidence we do have and evaluate it. And how difficult it is to resist that dynamic.

From that perspective the continual focus on irrelevancies is both understandable and interesting.

We will not solve this case here: what we can hope to do is to examine how we have looked at the evidence and how we have reached our conclusions (for we have all made a judgement by this stage). We can consider how and why we cannot agree on the smallest detail and think about why that is.

Well, I say we can hope: I am afraid that is not actually true for me any more. But why we cannot do this is interesting too

 

[Kestrel]

A post-mortem examination originally put the time of Ms Kercher's death at between midnight and 2am on Friday, November 2, but detectives are now focusing on a theory that she was killed several hours earlier, after analysis of food in her stomach suggested that she had died between 8.30pm and 11pm.

In case anyone is interested in the science behind determining time of death, there is an overview here.

The quote at the beginning of the article points out that the real world isn't like CSI:

The time of death is sometimes extremely important. It is a question almost invariably asked by police officers, sometimes with a touching faith in the accuracy of the estimate. Determining the time of death is extremely difficult, and accuracy is impossible.

 

[Mr.D]

And where did that start?

Well _I'm_ trying to anyway. And not having as much success as I'd hoped. Between real life keeping me mostly away for a few days and the apparent problem that EVERYTHING about this case seems to provoke dispute of some sort, it hasn't been a very fruitful attempt.

(Yet, anyway)

 

[quadraginta]

Probably true. But then why when people examine evidence in the forums, do they focus on cartweels (which only proves Amanda Knox is an idiot)? It only seems to justify the OP's point.

I think it is important to note that in the instance of this thread at least, the OP was intended to focus on the cartwheels as a demonstration of a miscarriage of justice, but was quickly and nearly unanimously discarded as not being evidence of anything in particular (except the bias of the OP) by all the serious respondents. I'm not sure if this is typical of the reactions in the larger group of "forums" you mention.

The main substance of this thread after that initial flurry of direct comments on the OP has had little to do with cartwheels.

What that suggests to me is that there little or no "focus on cartwheels" here, at least, but instead a sincere attempt to tease out what morsels of dependable information it is possible to garner from the sources available, and to try and distinguish them from other such blatant attempts at concerted misdirection as the cartwheel canard so obviously was.

 

[stilicho]

What that suggests to me is that there little or no "focus on cartwheels" here, at least, but instead a sincere attempt to tease out what morsels of dependable information it is possible to garner from the sources available, and to try and distinguish them from other such blatant attempts at concerted misdirection as the cartwheel canard so obviously was.

Another point is that some of the things deemed unimportant (timing of the 112 calls, voluntary versus coerced statements, whose lamp was on the floor of Meredith's room, content of the first call from AK to her mother, behaviour in the lingerie shop, and so on) because they occurred hours after the murder were apparently important enough to be discussed during the trial. Just because we think they're unimportant doesn't mean they actually are. Lawyers don't ordinarily introduce events into trials unless they are important to the case.

-------------

Since we are discussing the precision of the time of death, it might be added this is part of the reason the alibis were so important for each of RS, AK, and PL. The time period covered by investigators was quite wide, which is why the cell phone records, accounts of Meredith's friends, computer records, PL's eyewitness, and other prosecution witnesses, weren't just examined for 11 pm on 01 NOV but for hours both before and after.

I don't have a standard to compare this to. If anyone does, that would be helpful. Given the imprecision demonstrated in Kestrel's example it would make sense that investigators wouldn't just collect data from a single point in time.

And, if you think it's tough nailing down the exact time of death, it's even harder to establish when Filomena's window was broken. For the defence to be right, they have to do some shuffling. They want Meredith's time of death to be earlier than later so that some of the evidence helps exonerate RS and AK (the girl who visited Sollecito's flat, discrediting Curatolo, computer activity) but they also have to have the window broken earlier, too.

 

[Dan O.]

Well _I'm_ trying to anyway. And not having as much success as I'd hoped. Between real life keeping me mostly away for a few days and the apparent problem that EVERYTHING about this case seems to provoke dispute of some sort, it hasn't been a very fruitful attempt.

(Yet, anyway)

Sorry Mr.D, I should have been more precise. I wasn't questioning your excellent work but the second half of Bob's statement interpreting the contents of this thread since you started the task.