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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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katy_did said:
No, Bongiorno did not give the presentation comparing cell phone and CCTV records to Judge Micheli. Micheli had the raw data, but not the presentation she gave which proved beyond doubt that the 112 call was made before the postal police arrived.

How do you know that the judges/jury in the main trial didn't accept her argument? The guilty verdict does not mean they bought all of the prosecution case. The fact the prosecution backed down on their 10/20 minute fast claim in their closing argument, suggesting instead that it could have been 5 minutes fast (another impossible claim) shows they were worried the jury had in fact been convinced by Bongiorno.


Then you are clearly wrong. If the postal police got there at 12:34, meaning the CCTV clock was 18 minutes fast, this means the carabinieri got there at 13:04. This is preposterous.
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Bongiorno and Raffale's other lawyers spent a lot of time presenting a case to judge Micheli regarding the phone calls. If he already had the raw data, then what did they present as argument then, scotch mist?

I'm sorry, I really can't be bothered to go on and and on about the the garage video, perhaps someone else will play with you. I've debated that darned video multiple times over months. I can't be doing with the continuous hair splitting.

As far as I'm concerned, the matter of when the Postal Police arrived and when Raffaele made the call has been long settled, in two separate courts no less. If you have a problem with that, write to the judges.
 
katy_did said:
If the 112 calls were made after the postal police's arrival, the first conversation must have been over by 12:46, meaning they must have initially arrived talking about only one phone and then been notified by the station that a second phone had been found. Yet Luca, arriving no later than 12:46, assumed like Amanda that the two phones on the table were the two that had been found. Had he been there when the call about the second phone came through, he would obviously not have made this mistake.
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But the call wouldn't have been made to 'him'.
 
katy_did said:
He would have locked Meredith's door to delay the discovery of her body by her housemates.

On the other hand, there really is absolutely no reason for Amanda and Raffaele would have done it, since everything they did the next day served to hasten the discovery of the body.
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Rudy had no reason to delay the discovery. He could be home inside 5 minutes. His bloody footprints prove he didn't lock the door in any case. He walked out the room without turning and carried on walking out the house.

Raffaele and Amanda had every reason to lock the door. They needed a an excuse for if found at the cottage in the morning, for why they had not discovered Meredith. How could Amanda have claimed to have done all the things she did that morning and not be overly alarmed if Meredith's door were open and her body lying there in full view? She would have been expected to call the police immediately. Moreover, they wanted someone else to discover the body and call the police, while they were present so they could influence how things went. They also needed to delay discovery of the body to give them time to stage the scene and partially clean.

They had EVERY reason to lock Meredith's door.
 
I just thought I'd share the problems I've been having with the lock on my front door. The spring loaded mechanism that is supposed slide across and secure the door keeps sticking half way. Some of the time the lock will catch but the door will subsequently open. Other times the the lock doesn't engage at all and the door swings open again as soon as you shut it. Other times the lock works fine.

From the inside you can easily release the mechanism (if you understand what the problem is). Even so, we now routinely double lock the door whether we're in or out.

Maybe this is what was going on with the lock in this case, maybe it was something else.
 
Matthew Best said:
The sooner the body is discovered, the sooner the police start searching for the murderer. The longer it takes, the better, as far as the killer is concerned.
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They can search all they want, he's gone, away from the cottage. How does delaying their searching help him? And what are a few hours going to do?

It's also clear he wasn't at all thinking about the police, otherwise he wouldn't have been so sloppy leaving evidence 'Right, I'll just lock this door so police start searching for me a bit slower and then I'll just leave these footprints in blood all the way down the corridor to ensure they find me faster.' Like that?

Guede didn't care. All he cared about was getting OUT. He didn't lock the door and I repeat again, his footprints show he never turned to lock it.
 
shuttlt said:
I just thought I'd share the problems I've been having with the lock on my front door. The spring loaded mechanism that is supposed slide across and secure the door keeps sticking half way. Some of the time the lock will catch but the door will subsequently open. Other times the the lock doesn't engage at all and the door swings open again as soon as you shut it. Other times the lock works fine.

From the inside you can easily release the mechanism (if you understand what the problem is). Even so, we now routinely double lock the door whether we're in or out.

Maybe this is what was going on with the lock in this case, maybe it was something else.
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Mine won't even accept a key from the inside.
 
Fulcanelli said:
They can search all they want, he's gone, away from the cottage. How does delaying their searching help him? And what are a few hours going to do?
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Who knows? Maybe it will make a difference, maybe it won't.

It's also clear he wasn't at all thinking about the police
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So you're a mind-reader now as well? Congratulations. I trust you'll be applying for the Million Dollars?
 
Matthew Best said:
Who knows? Maybe it will make a difference, maybe it won't.



So you're a mind-reader now as well? Congratulations. I trust you'll be applying for the Million Dollars?
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The evidence he left kind of proves it. So, let me rephrase it. His behaviour was devoid of cunning, it was not constant with one who was mindful of evidence or factors that would point to him or expedite his arrest. Rather, his behaviour suggests his frame of mind was basic, of one in fight or flight mode.
 
katy_did said:
Till the appeal. ;)
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And AK will be found guilty again because as has been pointed out, her fate is tied to that of RS and the evidence against him is overwhelming. She might have some hope if her appeal were to be separate from his but from what I understand that's not possible under Italian law.
 
Fulcanelli said:
The evidence he left kind of proves it. So, let me rephrase it. His behaviour was devoid of cunning, it was not constant with one who was mindful of evidence or factors that would point to him or expedite his arrest. Rather, his behaviour suggests his frame of mind was basic, of one in fight or flight mode.
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Guede did his best not to leave any evidence outside the bedroom itself, and then he locked the door on his way out. Why do you think none of his prints go from the body to the bathroom, even though he's admitted he went in there? Because he took off his shoes so as not to leave prints, then put them back on in the corridor before he left. He might have gotten away with it, had he not accidentally stepped in some blood and had to hop to the bathroom to try and wash it off (a footprint which can only have been made shortly after the attack, before the blood had dried). Whoops.

He knew he was going to be skipping the country, and he was hoping to buy himself a few days to get the money together before he did.
 
Alt+F4 said:
And AK will be found guilty again because as has been pointed out, her fate is tied to that of RS and the evidence against him is overwhelming. She might have some hope if her appeal were to be separate from his but from what I understand that's not possible under Italian law.
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I don't think even a separate trial would save her.

There's as much DNA evidence pointing toward her involvements as there is for Sollecito's. The knife and the blood traces in the bathroom both point to Knox being as involved as Sollecito.
 
Alt+F4 said:
And AK will be found guilty again because as has been pointed out, her fate is tied to that of RS and the evidence against him is overwhelming. She might have some hope if her appeal were to be separate from his but from what I understand that's not possible under Italian law.
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I suspect sufficient doubt has been cast on the forensic evidence following the verdict that an acquittal is quite likely, especially in light of Mignini's guilty verdict (anyone know when his appeal is likely to be - before or after Knox and Sollecito's appeal?). It should make no difference of course, but I suspect it will in the sense that it allows the court to make Mignini the fall guy and the Italian legal system itself can escape criticism (somewhat unfairly, actually; Mignini wasn't the one who decided on the guilty verdict). We shall see, anyway.
 
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Fulcanelli said:
Bongiorno and Raffale's other lawyers spent a lot of time presenting a case to judge Micheli regarding the phone calls. If he already had the raw data, then what did they present as argument then, scotch mist?
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It's a little different seeing the CCTV records and cell phone records directly compared to prove a point, as opposed to seeing them as entirely separate documents. Why do you think Bongiorno decided to create a presentation based on them in the first place, if what she said was so darn obvious?

Fulcanelli said:
As far as I'm concerned, the matter of when the Postal Police arrived and when Raffaele made the call has been long settled, in two separate courts no less. If you have a problem with that, write to the judges.
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You feel it is settled because you aren't prepared to accept simple logic. You can't conclude on the basis of the guilty verdict that this particular aspect of the prosecution case was believed.
 
katy_did said:
I suspect sufficient doubt has been cast on the forensic evidence following the verdict, that an acquittal is quite likely, especially in light of Mignini's guilty verdict (anyone know when his appeal his likely to be - before or after Knox and Sollecito's appeal?). It should make no difference of course, but I suspect it will in the sense that it allows the court to make Mignini the fall guy and the Italian legal system itself can escape criticism (somewhat unfairly, actually; Mignini wasn't the one who decided on the guilty verdict). We shall see, anyway.
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Excuse me, your bias and ehtno-centrism is showing.

As has been discussed, Mignini's conviction has nothing to do with this case and will play no part in the appeal. Somehow, given the unanimous verdict and mountains of evidence, I doubt the courts are as concerned with American criticism as you'd like them to be.
 
BobTheDonkey said:
Excuse me, your bias and ehtno-centrism is showing.

As has been discussed, Mignini's conviction has nothing to do with this case and will play no part in the appeal. Somehow, given the unanimous verdict and mountains of evidence, I doubt the courts are as concerned with American criticism as you'd like them to be.
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Technically, as you say, it should play no part. Similarly, Rudy's reduction in sentence should play no part. But in the same way that I felt Rudy's sentence reduction was bad news for Knox and Sollecito (since it meant that if they were acquitted, the only person convicted for the murder would serve just 12 years or so) Mignini's guilty verdict is good news for them, in that the court can acquit without accepting any responsibility for the first conviction.

These things are political, in any country. But as I said, we shall see.

Question: do we know yet that the verdict was unanimous? I've seen conflicting stories on this, some people stating already that it was unanimous, others saying that will be revealed in the judge's report. Anyone know which of these is true?
 
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