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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Lane99 said:
I would say the credibility of anyone who suggests the evidence against the others is as strong as that against Rudy Guilty would be questionable,

I've no idea why Adolf Hitler decided he needed to commit suicide. After all, there was far more evidence that Heidrich killed more people. Since there was more evidence against Heidrich...Hitler would have walked after any trial since there was 'less' against him. After all, if you take a group of people, only those who have the 'most' evidence against them are guilty of anything...at least in Lane99 World. All Hitler would have needed to have said is...'There's more evicence against him then me, that makes me innocent'. Wasn't Hitler dumb?! Or maybe he wasn't, maybe he understood how the 'real' world works.
 
Why are you dodging the question? Have you got something to hide?

Just to get us started, be so kind as to provide me the name of the one case you think most closely parallels this case. I'm anxious to look at it.

If you're unwilling to provide a case, we'll leave it at that. Your unwillingness will simply be on the record and people will be able to draw what conclusions from that as they may.

The record will also show that, when asked to provide examples of why you asserted Amanda's statements contained guilty knowledge, that you were struck dumb.

You are trolling and obviously not interested in the work done here (mainly by Fiona, Fulcanelli, and Quadraginta), the ample references drawn from AK's own words, the collections of evidence at the PMF or TJMK, or the legal processes at work in Perugia during the investigation, trial, and eventual convictions of the three perpetrators.

One more immature outburst such as that above and you will earn the honour of becoming the first and only JREF member that I have ever put on Ignore.

If you are ready to read through the pages here, including the referenced links, then we may continue on lively and friendly terms. The answers are all there for you.
 
Well, for starters, you might want to take a look at post 2937 ;-)
Were you being ironic when you mentioned supporters? Do you really mean that you think Falcanelli is being unfairly supportive of Guede?
 
Lane99 said:
Well, for starters, you might want to take a look at post 2937 ;-)

Obsessed supporters of 'whom'? Amanda Knox? Like those who sign up to multiple forums, this being the latest, to scream about how innocent she is? That wouldn't be you would it Lane99? Stones...glass houses...all of that.
 
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What...'he' didn't get fitted up by Mignini? The fitting up is selective...special? So, we can go black and white, no pun intended...all the evidence against Rudy is good...all the evidence against Amanda and Raffaele is bad, even though it was all gathered and examined and prosecuted by the same people? How strange.

And not quite black and white, Fulcanelli. These same obscenely criminal Perugia authorities also failed to beat Mr Lumumba with pipes until he screamed "I am GUILTY!!". They released him after the liar who put him in prison for two weeks was proved wrong.

Isn't she just darling?
 
An American millionaire has just been arresteed here for murdering his English wife. I wonder if he gets convicted, if the same heart stoppingly obtuse people will be here acting like 911 truthers about that conviction also?
 
An American millionaire has just been arresteed here for murdering his English wife. I wonder if he gets convicted, if the same heart stoppingly obtuse people will be here acting like 911 truthers about that conviction also?

Your arch-nemesis JihadJane won't. I know that because she is picky about what she goes all stupid about. Millionaires aren't her bag.

I am glad you pointed that out. We have had our own "84 videos of the Pentagon" moment here already courtesy of Dan O.

The similarities just boggle.
 
An American millionaire has just been arresteed here for murdering his English wife. I wonder if he gets convicted, if the same heart stoppingly obtuse people will be here acting like 911 truthers about that conviction also?

Hi funk de fino. Somehow, I suspect they'll be fine about that. Where they'd have an issue, is if he'd have been in a foreign country when he murdered his wife. Then they'd have a problem...after all, if the legal system isn't American it's corrupt and just plain wrong.

Oh..and was his wife pretty? If not, they wouldn't give a toss.
 
Hi funk de fino. Somehow, I suspect they'll be fine about that. Where they'd have an issue, is if he'd have been in a foreign country when he murdered his wife. Then they'd have a problem...after all, if the legal system isn't American it's corrupt and just plain wrong.

Oh..and was his wife pretty? If not, they wouldn't give a toss.

You'll note when I say over here, I mean over here, in a foreign country.
 
They cannot be produced in coirt, under Italian law. And since, at the start of thr trial Raffaele's and Amanda's defence had them ruled out by Massei, they can never be produced in trial. If you want them, I suggest you get onto the defence and ask they request they be included in the next round.
Once again, do you have a link supporting your statement that transcripts of interrogations cannot be produced in court?
Nothing was 'leaked', they were legally released by the presiding judge, as she is bound to do under Italian law when she wrote her report. And they were released in 'text' form,. under Italian law. I say again, the Italian system is text based, not based on recorded media.There are exceptions. Recorded statements are not one of them, especially those made by Witnesses, which are not recorded in the first place. A recoirding has to actually 'exist' before it can be released.
So the prosecution didn't leak anything in the early days of the investigation? Glad we cleared that up. I'm assuming then that there are no reports as to what Amanda said during her 'confession' in the press prior to the publication of the judge's report.
Obviously, you have no idea how to research. Research 101...go here: KNOX AND SOLLECITO TRIAL HEARINGS TIMELINE and view who gave testimony when, that will give you the dates. Then, seek out those dates in the main discussion thread. You will see posts. But you will see a link to every article written on that particular testimony by the witnesses/experts concerned. Are there any other basics you need help with?
Fulcanelli, I searched for and read every forum post which contained the word 'scream'. Are you telling me the search function on the forum is inadequate, and there may have been statements about the scream which didn't appear on the search result?

If so, that is a different issue of course, and I can adjust my searches accordingly. Using your own logic, however, if you make a statement the onus should be on you to provide evidence, not expect other people to trawl through forum posts looking for it.
I believe those who show no reason to disbelieve them. Do you have any reason to support your assertion the police are proven liars? That is, aside from your predjudice and obvious agenda?
How about the claims of the postal police that they didn't enter Meredith's room, contradicted by two witnesses, and the claim by Battistelli that they arrived at 12.35, clearly contradicted by cell phone records and CCTV footage?

And may I say your own 'prejudice and obvious agenda' is crystal clear, also.
It's not 'selective'. The rule is, the evidence, the evidence, the evidence. Does what she say match the evidence and proof or not? That is and can only ever be the criteria.
You seem to be trying to avoid the point I made by responding with a very vague, general statement. You clearly ARE quite willing to believe certain parts of Amanda's testimony (and to misrepresent it, as it suits you) yet you disbelieve other parts because 'she's a liar'.
Really? I thought they got her convicted of murder with sexual aggravation, criminal slander, illegal transportation of a knife and the staging of a crime. They must have produced some evidence to do that. Don't you think?
Wow, you really do like to throw in a straw man when you want to avoid the question, don't you? You know quite well we were discussing evidence as to what was said in the interrogation.
'What' evidence? The only evidence you offer is 'Amanda said so'. That's evidence?
Well no, actually. I offered evidence from Judge Matteini's report, which oddly enough you neglected to quote. Here you go, I'll refresh your memory:

However, there is clear evidence in the statement itself that 'the scream' was suggested to her. Amanda says she DIDN'T hear Meredith scream, because she had her hands over her ears. Writing of the 'confession', Judge Matteini says, "specifying that in those moments she could not attest to hearing Meredith scream insofar as she was so frightened she blocked her ears, imagining what could have been happening". So in Amanda's 'confession', she says she can't testify to Meredith screaming, because she had her hands over her ears and couldn't hear. So why did she mention screaming? Because the police asked her why she didn't hear screaming. The statement she made on the night of the interrogation is completely consistent with her later claim that the scream was suggested to her.
And maybe it was. The killers would know.
I take it you've now dropped your argument that 'inside the closet' is equivalent to 'in front of the closet', then.
 
How about the claims of the postal police that they didn't enter Meredith's room, contradicted by two witnesses, and the claim by Battistelli that they arrived at 12.35, clearly contradicted by cell phone records and CCTV footage?
I tell you what, the whole CCTV/phone record/when did who arrive thing is a deep swamp of confusion. It's fairly well covered on this thread, if you really can't find it let me know. Seriously pages and pages of discussion. Anybody who tries to convince you that one quote, or one fact is enough to be on top of this one is lying to you.
 
I tell you what, the whole CCTV/phone record/when did who arrive thing is a deep swamp of confusion. It's fairly well covered on this thread, if you really can't find it let me know. Seriously pages and pages of discussion. Anybody who tries to convince you that one quote, or one fact is enough to be on top of this one is lying to you.

The PMF poster thoughtful did the same thing in mid-July last year on that forum. The problem was trying to cram something like 25 minutes of activity into less than 4 minutes.

When I re-read their analysis, I noticed a discussion of Sollecito's recharging of his phone minutes. This suggests (doesn't necessarily prove, of course) that he felt secure enough to waste precious seconds in a mundane task.

Why would he feel secure enough? The hypothesis is that Filomena's boyfriend and his friend were already occupying the attention of the Polizia.

If you look through the July 2009 pages there you will find this discussed in-depth with thoughtful taking the devil's advocate role and the Admins, along with Finn McCool and greggy providing the other side.

PS: They have over two years of discussion there of what appears fresh and new here. This thread only began after AK's conviction; theirs starts on 07 NOV 2007.
 
Of course they did. It doesn't require taking into the lab...just as the wardrobe wasn't...they swab it down for DNA then send the samples back. Again, this is basic. It was near the clasp because they moved it there, having earlier recorded it's position and testing it.
Do you have evidence for this, are you just making an assumption?
But it was covered. It was under a mat, by the desk. You didn't know this?
You might want to pay more attention when you're reading people's posts. The issue was that the hook of the clasp would be covered when the bra was fastened, but not after the clasp was cut.
Again, this all requires accepting Amanda's version of events and I see no reason to do so.
Except when it suits you to do so, clearly.
Of course we should. I'm glad to see you're catching up.
Excellent. So I guess there's no reason to discuss the 'confession', the handwritten statement or Patrick Lumumba any further.
Her interrogation was fully legal. Clearly, you still do not have the slightest understanding of Italian law.
Well hey, maybe if you can support your claims with links, instead of just expecting everyone to believe you without question, I might get more informed.
Is it not illegal to interrogate a suspect without a lawyer? And wasn't Amanda's interrogation continued after she had become a suspect, again without a lawyer?
'Was' she? Who said?
Amanda said this in the statement she gave to her interrogators shortly after her interrogation. Are you suggesting she was lying about the interrogation to her interrogators a couple of hours after the interrogation had finished?
Only he didn't. He went down the night club. Guess what he did the next night? He went down the night club again. Bang goes that theory.
Did you miss the part where I said he needed to get money together to leave the country? Wonder what he was doing in the nightclub... Some light theft perhaps, or maybe he needed another alibi? Let me guess, you think he just fancied a boogie before he skipped town.
It wasn't 'Mignini's' theory...you don't have to impersonate Dan_o, trust me, that's not a good thing...he's not very bright. The conclusion came from the trained experts who examined the crime scene.
A theory they oddly came up with only after Amanda was arrested. Strange, that.
Huh? My front door, I close it, it locks. I don't need a key to open it to get out...only to get in. What sort of door do you have...do you need a key to get out of your house?
The latch to the front door was broken, so the girls locked the door from the inside with a key to prevent the door blowing open. You didn't know this?
For this you have who's word? Preston's. Who is Preston? High priest of the FOA. 'nuff said. And I will also point out, it's a very different set of affairs breaking into somewhere in order to arrange surveillance and quite another in order to frame them for a crime they didn't commit.
No, I'm afraid I don't think it's 'nuff said'. If all you can do is dismiss Douglas Preston personally rather than considering his arguments, then for me that isn't a convincing reason to disbelieve him.

A staged break-in is a staged break-in, whatever the purpose.
Laura, Filomena and Amanda lived there. They looked out for each other. The cottage wasn't on Mars
It was a holiday weekend, and Guede no doubt hoped the rest of the flatmates were away, or that if they returned, they wouldn't notice anything out of the ordinary immediately. Laura and Filomena were, in fact, away for the weekend. Not quite sure how your comments address my point in the slightest, to be honest.
 
katy_did said:
Once again, do you have a link supporting your statement that transcripts of interrogations cannot be produced in court?

Well, for this common knowledge, perhaps you should satisfy the deficit in your understanding by perusing the Italian legal sites...rather then stomping up to the counter and demanding a burger...with fries.

Failing that, you might perform a search on PMF for posts by the the member 'Yummi', an Italian who has a much respected understanding of Italian law. If that's to tough, join the board, if you haven't already and send him a PM directly to ask him about the issue.

katy_did said:
So the prosecution didn't leak anything in the early days of the investigation? Glad we cleared that up. I'm assuming then that there are no reports as to what Amanda said during her 'confession' in the press prior to the publication of the judge's report.

The judge's report was on the 9th. At the same time, the police are permitted under Italuan law to release 'extracts' beforehand. And why not...the judge will release a full report in any case.

katy_did said:
Fulcanelli, I searched for and read every forum post which contained the word 'scream'. Are you telling me the search function on the forum is inadequate, and there may have been statements about the scream which didn't appear on the search result?

Which was completely contrary to my specific instructions. Understand this..the search feature on PMF only includes the specific wording within posts, not within the linked articles. I suggest you renew your seach, in the manner I instructed.

katy_did said:
And may I say your own 'prejudice and obvious agenda' is crystal clear, also.

I have no dog in this fight. My only interest in this case is truth..and justice. If that's an agenda, so be it. But, I'm up front about that. What about you?

katy_did said:
You seem to be trying to avoid the point I made by responding with a very vague, general statement. You clearly ARE quite willing to believe certain parts of Amanda's testimony (and to misrepresent it, as it suits you) yet you disbelieve other parts because 'she's a liar'

I say nothing she says can be accepted at face value and everything must be parsed.

katy_did]Wow said:
However, there is clear evidence in the statement itself that 'the scream' was suggested to her. Amanda says she DIDN'T hear Meredith scream, because she had her hands over her ears. Writing of the 'confession', Judge Matteini says, "specifying that in those moments she could not attest to hearing Meredith scream insofar as she was so frightened she blocked her ears, imagining what could have been happening". So in Amanda's 'confession', she says she can't testify to Meredith screaming, because she had her hands over her ears and couldn't hear. So why did she mention screaming? Because the police asked her why she didn't hear screaming. The statement she made on the night of the interrogation is completely consistent with her later claim that the scream was suggested to her.

From two days later. Do you then accept everything else Matteini said? Ir's simply a stage...in a process, one that was completely open, and was refined as it progressed. At the later stages, no judges formed a similar conclusion. Not even Matteini herself, who oversaw Amanda's failed bid for house arrest.

katy_did said:
I take it you've now dropped your argument that 'inside the closet' is equivalent to 'in front of the closet', then.

Not really. I still see them as interchangeable. I also believe Meredith was moved perhaps more then once to her final position. Who's to say they didn't try 'stuffing' her un the wardrobe? It would be logical to me that they tried, before realising it wouldn't work. I have no evidence or proof for that, it's just something that makes sense to me. Her door was locked, in order to hide the body...to delay its discovery...why not an attempt to hide her in the wardrobe? Since she was murdered right in front of it, they would hardly have had to move her far. Does that make sense to you?

[
 
I tell you what, the whole CCTV/phone record/when did who arrive thing is a deep swamp of confusion. It's fairly well covered on this thread, if you really can't find it let me know. Seriously pages and pages of discussion. Anybody who tries to convince you that one quote, or one fact is enough to be on top of this one is lying to you.
I've read the argument on PMF, which I found pretty convincing with regard to the CCTV time being 8-12 minutes slow. Basically if you look at all the CCTV times (the possible sightings of Guede and Meredith, the definite sightings of the postal police and the carabinieri) it's difficult to square those with the prosecution's claim that the CCTV was fast. I guess the central fact to it all is the carabinieri pictured arriving at 13:22, followed by their phone call asking for directions at 13:29.

As you say though, it's certainly a complicated issue!
 
katy_did said:
and the claim by Battistelli that they arrived at 12.35, clearly contradicted by cell phone records and CCTV footage?

Except they weren't. The cell phone records and CCTV didn't prove anything. Although the cell phone records 'did' prove Raffaele called the police 'after' they'd already arrived.
 
The bra clasp sample was dominated by DNA belonging to Meredith. But DNA from several other persons was also present. The peaks belonging to Meredith would be easy to identify, because they are so much larger than the other peaks in the sample. But when peaks are of similar size, you can't really tell which ones belong to which person.

A way around this problem when looking for a male suspect in a sample dominated by a female victims DNA is to do a Y-STR match. Since females don't have a Y chromosome, it only shows DNA contributed by males. As I remember, this is how they matched Sollecito to the bra clasp. Filomena and Laura wouldn't show up in a Y-STR test.

A Y-STR match also doesn't identify someone as precisely as a normal forensic DNA match. My DNA will only match my identical twin. A Y-STR match will match anyone who shares my ancestry along the male line (i.e. my brothers, my father, my father's brothers, their sons, etc.).

OK I'll go along with that the bra clasp may show contamination from the Filomena and Laura.


Do you accept the evidence taken from the account here http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C339/
3. Mixed Samples Of Blood

There were five instances of Amanda Knox’s blood or DNA mixed with Meredith’s blood in three different locations in the cottage in Via della Pergola: the bathroom, the hallway, and Filomena’s bedroom.

Amanda Knox’s blood was found mingled with Meredith’s blood in three places in the bathroom: on the ledge of the basin, on the bidet, and on a box of Q Tips cotton swabs.

Dr. Stefanoni testified that it would have been “strange” that three traces of blood with both Meredith’s and Amanda Knox’s DNA would have been left at different times.

Barbie Nadeau in Newsweek pointed out a reason why the blood stains must have been left on the night of the murder:

“Legal experts who follow this case have suggested that blood evidence cannot be dated and therefore could have been left weeks before the murder. But when Knox testified in her own defense in June, she conceded that there was no blood in the bathroom the day before the murder, effectively dating those blood stains to that night.”

Perhaps Knox had a bloody earring piercing, and maybe a drop landed on a drop of Meredith’s blood. But in three different places? Perhaps it is not surprising that the defence lawyers have not brought up the subject of the mixed DNA in the bathroom in their part of the trial.

Meredith’s blood was found on the top part of the light switch in the bathroom she shared with Amanda Knox. This suggests that it was deposited there when the light was switched on. Meredith’s blood was also found on the toilet lid. There were no DNA or other physical traces of Rudy Guede in that bathroom.

Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s DNA was also found mixed together in a bloody footprint in the hallway of the new wing of the house.

A mixture of Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s blood was also found in Filomena’s room. This seems to be compelling evidence because Knox had never claimed she entered Filomena’s room when she checked the cottage. This room was the scene of the alleged break-in, and there were glass fragments on the floor.

Meredith’s blood had been cleaned up in this room, but it was nevertheless revealed by luminol.

Barbie Nadeau concludes in a Daily Beast report that the mixture of Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s blood in Filomena’s room seems more incriminating than the double DNA knife: “But perhaps more damning even than the knife was Stefanoni’s testimony that a mix of Knox’s DNA and Kercher’s blood was found on the floor in the bedroom of a third roommate, Filomena Romanelli.”

and accept the explanation from http://www.friendsofamanda.org/mixed_dna.html (bolding is mine)
The prosecutor has tried to insinuate that these findings are incriminating, but, as with other aspects of his case, the insinuations do not lead to a specific theory. The most plausible explanation is that the mixed DNA is simply a result of cohabitation. As an example for the sake of comparison, investigators used luminol in Raffaele's apartment and found a latent stain with the mixed DNA of him and Amanda. All it means is that two people have been sharing the same space.

The only mixed DNA presented in court (in the above evidence) was Knox and Kercher, the defense did not show (or question the forensics) any other DNA mix or contamination from Filomena or Laura, to weaken the prosecution case and present a plausible explanation, and bear in mind that Filomena room had been ransacked before or after (depending on POV) the murder.
 
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