Haitian earthquake was used as an excuse for US invasion

[Pardalis]

Aristide isn't going to change anything right now, people are still going to starve and the government is still in ruins.

Haïti doesn't need a political crisis on top of an humanitarian one.

Please try to stay on topic.

 

[Pardalis]

BTW, when are you going to acknowledge that the security is not just the US's job, but also the Canadian army and the MINUSTAH? If you want to invent a conspiracy to "take control of Haïti", you're going to have to involve the international community in it.

Or are you going to keep ignoring reality?

Your choice.

 

[Pardalis]

I'm still amazed at how little of this went on, 20 men, chased away by non US military? If it was me I would have been rioting on the second or third day it has taken 3 weeks to get decent amount of aid out with helicopters buzzing all over the place!

Will you get it in your thick head that every humanitarian aid organizations unanimously agree that this is the biggest tragedy and the biggest challenge they've ever been faced with. Aid relief is not a simple thing, especially when the devastation is this huge.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Glob...e-UN-confronts-largest-tragedy-in-own-history

Although aid is beginning to get through, the impact of the earthquake on Oxfam’s Haitian and international staff, the logistical challenges combined with a destroyed office and warehouse and the loss of communications have made this the one of the hardest responses the agency has ever mounted.

http://www.oxfam.org.nz/newsroom.asp?action=view&type=News&id=2461

Go ahead and ask the Red Cross, Oxfam, Unicef, Doctors Without Borders, CECI, pick any of them and ask.

You're arguing from incredulity. Because aid isn't fast enough for you (BTW, who are you to be making such an assessment, what are your qualifications in that matter?) so therefore you conclude that the problems we see are the result of a nefarious plot to take control of the country by the evil US.

This is not a rational conclusion, not a rational assessment. You are blinded by your politics, and are doing nothing more than using this tragedy to inject your own political agenda.

Stop it.

 

[Pardalis]

Also, you've been trying to derail this thread by talking about the coup d'état in Chile in '73, but didn't you just ask that Aristide should use this tragedy to mount his comeback and take over Préval's government?

Aren't you asking for a coup yourself?

 

[perseus]

No if you read the link you would know they were due for an election and he is not welcome. He should be allowed to stand.

Focus on your own bias.

Before legislative elections scheduled for February 28 were postponed, Haiti's presidentially appointed electoral council had excluded more than a dozen political parties from the next round of elections in 2011.

Opposition groups accused the council of trying to help Mr Preval's Unity party win majorities in parliament so he could push through constitutional reforms and expand executive power.

The most prominent excluded party is Mr Aristide's Lavalas Party, which now plans more demonstrations.

Meanwhile, US Red Cross officials in Washington said on Monday that there was a waiting list of 1,000 flights to land at Haiti's airport, hindering the delivery of relief supplies.

 

[Pardalis]

So you're asking for an election now? How's that going to work?

 

[dudalb]

Well if you can find evidence of Britain attempting to covertly overthrow democratic states I will believe you, but this is besides the point Britain is no angel either. You are diving and ducking scared: like Climate and Holocaust Deniers by combining straw men and ostrich tactics:.

Someone implied America had little influence in the Chilean coup so I provided the evidence it did, but even when you are confronted with explicit incriminating statements by the people at the top, you are saying I am ONLY using that to justify US behaviour in Haiti. NO!

There are 21 instances of known covert US action many involving the overthrown of democratic governments many in Latin America (I couldn't care less if they were right or left wing or in the cold war) this goes against Democracy! Am I using just that? NO!

Then someone says Haiti has been well planned, then I provide evidence from a US general (and many others) who say and show otherwise, then you say no this doesn't prove it is a military build up! Am I using just that? NO

I provide evidence that most of the emphasis in Haiti has been on Military security with aid demoted to a Cinderella status despite nearby military bases and few disturbances, especially during the early stages, and a rather embarrassing Uturn regarding air drops. Is this conclusive? NO

Am I saying all Americans are evil? hardly, I posted quotes from knowledgeable American academics and American sites who don't rely on the pay of corporations so they tell the truth but you don't like them doing this. I'm not even convinced that your present President is evil, but he has clearly lost control of the Pentagon as well as the Climate and Health bills.

But what does all this add up to?

• We have a known criminal with 21 instances of form, and just like gangsters some of these cases were against other bad gangs, but some were also against those who resisted his influence and just wanted to rule their own lives
• he is acting irregularly to cover up his behaviour
• he is operating in one of his main backyard 'districts' with potential enemies lurking possibly with eyes on the same thing
• he says he is only interested in providing aid but is very slow in doing so and keeps on bringing in military supplies.

Al Capone gave out sweets to children on camera, but do we just give him the benefit of doubt? Are we suspicious, you bet!

We have a budding EJ Armstrong here, folks.
I just checked out his posting history, and he has a similiar contempt for the US in General.
Americans are either evil, or stupid, or both in EJ's and Perseus' world.

 

[carlitos]

.

This evidence would be more than enough to send a criminal to prison or the hangman's noose.

Really? Someone could be executed based on the following quotes? That is what you are arguing here?

Quotations
"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." — Henry Kissinger

"Not a nut or bolt shall reach Chile under Allende. Once Allende comes to power we shall do all within our power to condemn Chile and all Chileans to utmost deprivation and poverty." — Edward M. Korry, U.S. Ambassador to Chile, upon hearing of Allende's election.

"Make the economy scream [in Chile to] prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him" — Richard Nixon, orders to CIA director Richard Helms on September 15, 1970

"It is firm and continuing policy that Allende be overthrown by a coup. It would be much preferable to have this transpire prior to October 24 [1970] but efforts in this regard will continue vigorously beyond this date. We are to continue to generate maximum pressure toward this end, utilizing every appropriate resource. It is imperative that these actions be implemented clandestinely and securely so that the USG and American hand be well hidden..." — A communique to the CIA base in Chile, issued on October 16, 1970

"We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [Garbled] created the conditions as great as possible. — Henry Kissinger conversing with President Nixon about the coup. Telephone call from Kissinger to Nixon

Imagine yourself in the ICC at the Hague, and the judge says "OK, what's your evidence." You reply "Kissinger once made this vague general statement..."

Wow.

Of course the US didn't sign up to the International Criminal Court Statute prior to Iraq invasion, how convenient!

Spot the rogue states outside the law!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ICCmemberstatesworldmap102007.png

And this proves the US' intent towards Haiti how, exactly?

 

[Rogue1stclass]

Well if you can find evidence of Britain attempting to covertly overthrow democratic states I will believe you, but this is besides the point Britain is no angel either. You are diving and ducking scared: like Climate and Holocaust Deniers by combining straw men and ostrich tactics:.

It's called an analogy. I was pointing out how ridiculous your argument is because it lacks context.

Someone implied America had little influence in the Chilean coup so I provided the evidence it did, but even when you are confronted with explicit incriminating statements by the people at the top, you are saying I am ONLY using that to justify US behaviour in Haiti. NO!

Haiti is what the thread is about. The only reason to bring up Chile in this thread is to use it as evidence for Haiti. As such, it is crap evidence because it happened 40 years ago as a conflict in a war that has been over for 20.

There are 21 instances of known covert US action many involving the overthrown of democratic governments many in Latin America (I couldn't care less if they were right or left wing or in the cold war) this goes against Democracy! Am I using just that? NO!

But the context of those covert actions no longer exists. That was how the Cold War was waged, for right or wrong, and it's over now. It is literally like expecting that Britain will invade France because of Normandy.

Then someone says Haiti has been well planned, then I provide evidence from a US general (and many others) who say and show otherwise, then you say no this doesn't prove it is a military build up! Am I using just that? NO

No one has said it's not a military build-up. What we have said is that military build-up is to provide disaster relief. You know, it even does that when a disaster happens in the US, right?

I provide evidence that most of the emphasis in Haiti has been on Military security with aid demoted to a Cinderella status despite nearby military bases and few disturbances, especially during the early stages, and a rather embarrassing Uturn regarding air drops. Is this conclusive? NO

Of course security is the top concern, it is the most important thing, not just for the aid workers but for the victims themselves. You can't just plop down in a disaster zone and start handing out blankets and canned peaches. That'll start riots as desperate, terrified people who just lost everything they had clamor for the slightest bit of help. People will kill each other for those blankets and canned peaches. And that's not even counting the criminal element. This is a lesson that has been learned time and time and time again, from Ethiopia to Somalia to Iraq to New Orleans. Hell, even in my quiet, suburban town I've seen people get into fist fights over a gallon of gasoline after a hurricane.

Am I saying all Americans are evil? hardly, I posted quotes from knowledgeable American academics and American sites who don't rely on the pay of corporations so they tell the truth but you don't like them doing this. I'm not even convinced that your present President is evil, but he has clearly lost control of the Pentagon as well as the Climate and Health bills.

There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start.

But what does all this add up to?

All that adds up here is your ignorance. You are basing your belief on outdated policies, lack of knowledge of disaster relief, and anti-American bias. You can't even address the simple reason why the US might actually want Haiti enough to spend millions, if not billions, of dollars to invade it during a rather significant recession. You've also neglected to factor in that 15 years ago the US did actually start to invade Haiti to put Aristede back in power after being displaced by a military coup. However, the full invasion was never carried out, and after everything settled down, what forces were there were pulled out.

Besides, who needs Haiti when already have our own, homegrown, rural French Creoles. We keep them in Lousiana.

 

[Pardalis]

That was how the Cold War was waged, for right or wrong, and it's over now.

That's the problem, for Jihad Jane, Perseus and Hugo Chavez the Cold War is still on.

They are so desperate for their "cause", that they'll use anything to try to ignite it again.

 

[dudalb]

It's called an analogy. I was pointing out how ridiculous your argument is because it lacks context.



Haiti is what the thread is about. The only reason to bring up Chile in this thread is to use it as evidence for Haiti. As such, it is crap evidence because it happened 40 years ago as a conflict in a war that has been over for 20.



But the context of those covert actions no longer exists. That was how the Cold War was waged, for right or wrong, and it's over now. It is literally like expecting that Britain will invade France because of Normandy.



No one has said it's not a military build-up. What we have said is that military build-up is to provide disaster relief. You know, it even does that when a disaster happens in the US, right?



Of course security is the top concern, it is the most important thing, not just for the aid workers but for the victims themselves. You can't just plop down in a disaster zone and start handing out blankets and canned peaches. That'll start riots as desperate, terrified people who just lost everything they had clamor for the slightest bit of help. People will kill each other for those blankets and canned peaches. And that's not even counting the criminal element. This is a lesson that has been learned time and time and time again, from Ethiopia to Somalia to Iraq to New Orleans. Hell, even in my quiet, suburban town I've seen people get into fist fights over a gallon of gasoline after a hurricane.



There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start.



All that adds up here is your ignorance. You are basing your belief on outdated policies, lack of knowledge of disaster relief, and anti-American bias. You can't even address the simple reason why the US might actually want Haiti enough to spend millions, if not billions, of dollars to invade it during a rather significant recession. You've also neglected to factor in that 15 years ago the US did actually start to invade Haiti to put Aristede back in power after being displaced by a military coup. However, the full invasion was never carried out, and after everything settled down, what forces were there were pulled out.

Besides, who needs Haiti when already have our own, homegrown, rural French Creoles. We keep them in Lousiana.

Yeah, and the Cajuns are pretty ignorant. Actually thinking that Loser of a football team from New Orleans is actually going to get anyplace.

Oh, Wait.......

 

[perseus]

HAITI - THE BROKEN WING

Peter Hallward examined recent US policy in Haiti in the Guardian:

“Ever since the US invaded and occupied the country in 1915, every serious political attempt to allow Haiti's people to move (in former president Jean-Bertrand Aristide's phrase) ‘from absolute misery to a dignified poverty’ has been violently and deliberately blocked by the US government and some of its allies.” (Hallward, ‘Our role in Haiti's plight,’ The Guardian, January 13, 2010;...

The US Double Game

Aristide took office in February 1991 and was briefly the first democratically elected President in Haiti's history before being overthrown by a US-backed military coup on September 30, 1991. The Washington-based Council on Hemispheric Affairs observed after the coup:

In 2004, the US engineered a further coup by cutting off almost all international aid over the previous four years, making the government’s collapse inevitable. Aristide was forced to leave Haiti by US military forces. “It appears that the US is aiding and abetting the attempt to violently topple the Aristide government. With all due respect, this looks like ‘regime change’.” (Quoted Anthony Fenton, 'Media vs. reality in Haiti,' February 13, 2004

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/13/our-role-in-haitis-plight)

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/index.php

 

[carlitos]

perseus, you forgot to write anything in your last post.

 

[Pardalis]

Could anyone remind me what this thread is about?

 

[Pardalis]

Perseus, you want the return of Aristide. Fine. What's that going to change? Are people going to get the help faster? Are the government institutions and infrastructures going to reappear suddenly?

 

[dudalb]

Yeah, we got another EJ on our hands...................

 

[Rogue1stclass]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/13/our-role-in-haitis-plight)

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/index.php

You still missed part where the US began an invasion of Haiti in 1994 to put Aristide back in power, stayed there for 2 years to assist in peacekeeping and then left.

But I guess you have to, because it destroys your theory...

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Perseus, you destroyed your credibility when you cited Medialens.

 

[JihadJane]

Perseus, you destroyed your credibility when you cited Medialens.

What did Medialens do to get on the Teach-Yourself-Rightwing-Bigotry blacklist?

You still missed part where the US began an invasion of Haiti in 1994 to put Aristide back in power, stayed there for 2 years to assist in peacekeeping and then left.

But I guess you have to, because it destroys your theory...

The US "put Aristide back in power" with his arms and legs tied to corporate policies dictated by the US, who later kidnapped him and flew him out of the country.

The Vultures Circle Haiti at Every Opportunity,Natural or Man-made

 

[Pardalis]

Could you guys stop link dumping and stick to the topic?

Remember what the man said:

Please keep this topic relevant to the Haiti earthquake. If you want to start a general discussion of the US and their policies or California or something else, please do so. Don't derail this topic.

Thanks

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

Whatever happened in Chile, Alabama, or to Aristide six or 15 years ago isn't going to change what's going on right now, and the last thing Haïti needs is political wars instigated by Aristide supporters and opportunistic socialists.

What they need is food, water, medical aid, a roof over their heads, political stability and civil order. Aristide and the socialist paradise can wait.

You guys need to get over yourselves. You lost the Cold War, get over it.