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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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paximperium said:
Nope. But that has nothing to do with your original claim about the so-called apostles who are eye-witnesses now does it?
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But it has everything to do with the point you posed and I responded to:

Pax said:
Who died again? Where is the evidence that this "dying" even occured?
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_____

PAX said:
Are you lying again DOC?
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And like I've said before, it seems that everytime I get into important info, the derogatory personal attacks heat up.

ETA: Get off the message and onto the messenger.
 
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paximperium said:
Nice moving goalpost there DOC...
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So are you saying the list in URL of Christian martyrs doesn't include the 11 of 12 apostles I was talking about? I don't understand exactly what you are talking about, explain?
 
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DOC said:
From the article:

Extraordinary Evidence About Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls: Grant Jeffries


"In 1991 the world was astonished to hear that one of the unpublished scrolls included incredible references to a "Messiah" who suffered crucifixion for the sins of men. The scroll was translated by Dr. Robert Eisenman, Professor of Middle East Religions of California State University. He declared, "The text is of the most far-reaching significance because it shows that whatever group was responsible for these writings was operating in the same general scriptural and Messianic framework of early Christianity."

http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/article1.htm
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I have not read the dead sea scrolls mentioning anything about a crucification.
Just that they were expecting two messiahs, a military leader and a wise teacher, the teacher being identified as the return (second coming?) of the initial founder of the sect.

It has nothing to do with Jesus, it only shows the predominance of eschatological thinking at that time and place, showing that Jesus was not as unique and original as some people might have thought and suggesting how a myth could have developed around him that aggregated events from older traditions...
 
DOC said:
So 11 of 12 apostles died for a "story" about someone they knew and followed for 3 years and who died in their hometown and supposedly rose from the dead without proof?
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Sooo...Islam is The One True Religiontm because Wail al-Shehri was willing to die for his beliefs? Or Emperor Worship is The One True Religiontm because kamakazi pilots were willing to die for their beliefs? I mean, they couldn't POSSIBLY be mistaken about it if they're willing to DIE for it, right? Or Jonestown? Or Heavens Gate? Or Branch Davidian?

What's nice about all the examples I just gave? We have verifiable evidence that they all existed. No single source issues. No translation errors getting in the way.

So, how about you stop bringing up the "11 of 12 apostles" canard as it's already been weighed and found wanting.
 
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DOC said:
So are you saying the list in URL of Christian martyrs doesn't include the 11 of 12 apostles I was talking about? I don't understand exactly what you are talking about, explain?
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But, as explained to you many many times:
a) This list is based either on the Act of Apostles or later Christian traditions, so it is either circular reasoning (using the Bible to prove the Bible) or just hearsay.
b) In fact it is accepted that many of the reports of persecution were exaggerated by the church of the time to suscite sympathy.
c) It does not mean anything as people have died for other causes. Islam have martyrs too, including the 9/11 hijackers. And so did the martyrs of the heaven-gate that did have a direct contact with their messiah. It's only through special pleading that you convince yourself that the Christian martyrs are somehow different.
d) No matter how many times you repeat the same broken argument, it does not make it any truer, it only makes your subsequent appeal to your post count sounds even more retarded...
 
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DOC said:
From the article:

Extraordinary Evidence About Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls: Grant Jeffries


"In 1991 the world was astonished to hear that one of the unpublished scrolls included incredible references to a "Messiah" who suffered crucifixion for the sins of men. The scroll was translated by Dr. Robert Eisenman, Professor of Middle East Religions of California State University. He declared, "The text is of the most far-reaching significance because it shows that whatever group was responsible for these writings was operating in the same general scriptural and Messianic framework of early Christianity."

http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/article1.htm
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DOC, I honestly do not understand how you think this helps your argument.

You are attempting to present evidence that the gospels all describe the life of a real person, who was god made flesh. The primary counter argument against this has been: The gospel stories are just stories, and borrow from other myths/stories.


So now you present information that some people say bears much resemblance to text in Matthew, and it came ~ 70-100 years before Jesus.

This information only supports the argument that the gospel of Matthew is a story borrowing from common traditions/myths of the day.

I must ask, Why did you present this? It's evidence against the New testament writers telling the truth.
 
On another thread...

The bible was written by men, men who understood how people think, so is it any wonder that they knew what to say to get people to believe their idea of a so-called god and what it said. They only have to play on the wants, feelings and needs of people to get them to believe it all and unfortunately it has worked too well. Isn’t funny how the story of Jesus took so long to be written down, long enough for anyone at the time it was supposed have happened to be long gone, time enough to get the story right so that many people believed in it, good PR if you ask me.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
DOC said:
And like I've said before, it seems that everytime I get into important info, the derogatory personal attacks heat up.

ETA: Get off the message and onto the messenger.
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Important information? Important information??????????????

Assumes evidence not in evidence, DOC.

Resubmit please.
 
DOC said:
In the "Do Most Atheists know that Science..." thread I mentioned Norman Geisler and Frank Turek's book called "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" a few times because of its clear explanations of scientific theories. But, yes, they did talk about more than science.

In chapter 11 of their book they give the top 10 reasons we know the New Testament writers told the truth. I'll mention some of those reasons and maybe expound on them as time permits.

Reason #1

The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details About Themselves.

For example some passages portray the disciples as dim-witted, uncaring, and cowards.

Reason #2

The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details and Difficult Sayings of Jesus.

For example in one passage someone call Jesus a drunkard, and in another He was called demon-possessed, another a deceiver.

Reason #3

The NT Writers Left in Very Demanding Sayings of Jesus.

For example: (Matthew 5:28) "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".

And (Matt. 5:44-45) "I tell you Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...

As the book says "They certainly didn't make up a story that made life easier for themselves."

Reason #9

The New Testament Writers Describe Miracles Like Other Historical Events: With Simple, Unembellished Accounts.

If they made them up it would be likely that they would have used grandiose and extravagant images. The book says the gospels talk about the Resurrection in a matter of fact almost bland way.

Reason #10

The New Testament Writers Abandoned Their Long Held Sacred Beliefs and Practices, Adopted New Ones, And Did Not Deny Their Testimony Under Persecution Or Threat Of Death
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I don't understand what you're talking about. Explain?
 
DOC said:
So 11 of 12 apostles died for a "story" about someone they knew and followed for 3 years and who died in their hometown and supposedly rose from the dead without proof?
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Stranger things have happened. Do you have any evidence for their having proof?
 
DOC said:
But they got their story from Isaiah right?
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Hey, I just noticed. Did you find another die somewhere?

I was wondering why you hadn't rolled 'Geisler and Luke' for a while, and now you've thrown an 'Isaiah'

I call shenanigans.


Although if you roll two of them, I'll have to call "Snake's Isaiahs!"
 
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Akhenaten said:
Hey, I just noticed. Did you find another die somewhere?

I was wondering why you hadn't rolled 'Geisler and Luke' for a while, and now you've thrown an 'Isaiah'

I call shenanigans.


Although if you roll two of them, I'll have to call "Snake's Isaiahs!"
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Maybe he's not using a d6? Maybe it's a weighted d12, so six of the sides come up more often, but every once in a while one of the unpreferred sides pops up?
 
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