UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

Status
Not open for further replies.
No one cares, Rramjet. To be honest, you're making yourself look very foolish. You pitched up months ago promising evidence of aliens, and now you're bleating about perceived abuse and presenting 60 year old flannel. "Ooh, look at the picture! No one knows what it is!" "Ooh, this man says he saw something!" It's drivel. Do you have anything that in anyway proves something other than "someone saw something in the sky and didn't know what it was"?
 
I am flattered that you think that scientists should be “all knowing, all seeing” and that you think my posts demonstrate some scientific mastery of a number of subjects. I can now understand why I seem to attract so much abuse from you and others in this forum. You seem to have placed me on some sort of pedestal as a “scientist” and when I fail to live up to some supposed standard or other of yours, then you are all the more bitterly disappointed and therefore tend to take your frustrations out on me.
No Rramjet, you come in for abuse because you make claims based in science that you can't, or won't, back up with any demonstrable knowledge.

You introduced Freidman into the discussion, and restated his claims about SETI scientists making silly statements about the energy required for interstellar flight. but when challenged to back up that claim with actual maths and physics (you know, science) you suddenly become reticent, and ignore any and all posts on the subject.

If you can't back up a claim, don't make it. Otherwise you'll get abuse for being unscientific.
 
It's not abuse to say that Rramjet is unscientific. He has claimed to be a scientist and is professing to make scientific claims. Pointing out that his claims are not scientific and that this therefore casts doubt on his being a scientist does not qualify as abuse under any definition I'm aware of.

Sorry, I'm just getting quite narked by this constant claiming of abuse.
 
There are two issues here. The negative and the print. First I think you actually need to understand what occurs when photons contact a photosensitive medium. With overexposure, the details of the subject become increasingly “lost” (that is no longer “stored” on the medium). This because the number of photons contacting any particular place on the medium will finally add up to a complete “whiteout” (ie; a completely clear negative in which NO detail is discernable – and it is utterly impossible to recover).

Thanks for the darkroom 101 lesson but I have spent many more hours in the darkroom than you probably could imagine.

Cloud patterns the same? See analysis provided in the link above.
Wind? Have a look at the lower level clouds in P4. They clearly demonstrate a quite strong wind blowing from right to left of frame. Plus the striated appearance of the upper clouds indicate that there were upper atmosphere winds as well.

So, you could not do it yourself. Nice try. Shough's work refutes some of what you stated. He comes up with times that are in the matter of minutes (something I had mentioned previously) between the photographs. Additionally, if you read what he wrote, the winds blow from east to west at Trindade and this is his theory regarding the photographs and the clouds. That being the clouds are moving from LEFT TO RIGHT.

Your statements here actually reveal more about your level of professionalism than they do mine.

I have never claimed to be a scientist but you have. You have yet to demonstrate that you are actually trained in such a profession.

When you provide your references that is (getting them out of you is like pulling teeth! LOL). I have never claimed any special knowledge. I merely present the evidence as I see it (complete WITH references).

You know, all I keep seeing is you parroting what these websites tell you and even then you don't read them completely. I make no apologies about presenting information and I am not writing a term paper for you. If you request a reference, I have readily provided it. For some reason, you are too lazy or not smart enough to find the information for yourself. As a result, any opinion you have offerred so far is invalid because you have not researched the topic thoroughly.

1) see here: (http://www.martinshough.com/aerialphenomena/trindade/clouds.htm)

2) Have a look at the cloud patterns in (particularly) P4. Lower level winds probably generally north easterly - upper level winds possibly southerly.

3) Given the movement of the clouds between photos it is apparent that the wind is fairly strong. How about 35kts? :)

4) Oh really… Just compare the originals with what he presented.

1) Shough does not demonstrate a match that conforms to the short time period mentioned by the witnesses.

2) The clouds, according to Shough, are moving in a direction towards the west and the winds are E or SE.

3) He also indicates the normal winds are not that great. Can you show us the math you used to compute the wind speeds? I find your estimate incorrect and based on nothing presented. The seas are reasonably mild. A 35 kt wind would chop them up something awful. Additionally, it would have made for a rather unstable operation in operating launches (which had just occurred at the time of the event). Having spent many hours at sea, I think I can confidently state that winds of 35 kts make it very difficult for small craft to operate.

4) He states he used an equilization filter. You claimed he used diffferent filters or filtering methods. I am asking how you determined this? Did you perform some tests on the images or was it your "seat of the pants" estimate?

FYI: My assessment was:
If you look at the photos with a critical eye, you will note that the camera is only slightly below the level of the top of the fuel-oil tank! (That is we can almost see the top of the tank - and in photo 2 the line of the siding board on the house - which is almost level with the height of the top of the tank - forms a continuous line with the top of the tank. If the camera were much lower (like waist high) then that board line would be below the top of the tank).

I suggest you read how Dr. Maccabee placed the horizontal then. See my post above. He states the horizontal for the camera was at the lower portion of the tank. Can you demonstrate his "critical eye" is not as good as yours?

Sometimes, all it takes is the power of observation :) You seem to think that past researchers are “all knowing, all seeing” and that they have missed nothing. Well you are mistaken. They have missed the simple assessment that I have made as to where the height of the camera is. Perhaps it was too simple for them, wrapped up in minute technical details… perhaps a too obvious a thing for them to have thought of… this often happens in science… people work for centuries on a problem, then some bright spark comes along and says “oh, but you have not seen it from this perspective…” Did you know Newton had a cat? He cut a hole in his door to let it in and out. The cat had kittens… he cut extra smaller holes in his door to let them in and out also… great mind as he was he failed to recognise that the kittens could have also gone through the original hole! LOL.!

In other words, you can't present evidence and it is another "seat of the pants" guess because, based on your powers of perception, you are better than everybody else. I have presented it in a follow-up post above. I suggest you compare the photos taken by Hartmann in the Condon study (which he apparently took standing up straight) and those with the Trent's. There is a significant difference between the horizontal/horizon in relation to the garage and house. The only way that can happen is if the camera was at a lower elevation.


http://www.ncas.org/condon/text/images/pl25.jpg

and

http://www.ncas.org/condon/text/images/pl23.jpg
 
Last edited:
It's not abuse to say that Rramjet is unscientific. He has claimed to be a scientist and is professing to make scientific claims. Pointing out that his claims are not scientific and that this therefore casts doubt on his being a scientist does not qualify as abuse under any definition I'm aware of.

Sorry, I'm just getting quite narked by this constant claiming of abuse.

I agree, for someone who goes on the public record espousing the values of science and its methodology, Rramjet actually has a very poor understanding of the history. philosophy and methodology of science - in fact “grade school level” and “folklore-ish” might be appropriately applicable terms.

You only have to look at the gullibility he displays when he buys wholeheartedly into the fraudsters, hoaxers, and disinformation specialists agendas when he talks about UFOs.
 
Last edited:
It's not abuse to say that Rramjet is unscientific. He has claimed to be a scientist and is professing to make scientific claims. Pointing out that his claims are not scientific and that this therefore casts doubt on his being a scientist does not qualify as abuse under any definition I'm aware of.

Sorry, I'm just getting quite narked by this constant claiming of abuse.
I stand corrected. Thank you.
 
In this case we have what appears to be clear cause and effect at a secure military installation.
Keyword “appears”… as the promoters of the story have framed it for you and would like you to buy it… literally. Absolutely zero evidence has been presented that the alleged UFO had anything to do with the shutdown… in fact from what I’ve read it sounds to me like it was most likely a practical joke. According to Figel the maintenance guy said over the radio…

“We got a Channel 9 No-Go. It must be a UFO hovering over the site. I think I see one here.”

Must be? I think?

Where’s the “testimony” from any of the alleged UFO spotters?

I'm wondering why this isn't seen as compelling.
No evidence of a casual connection and in fact the shutdown can be explained by other means. According to Figel for example, at least two of the sites were under maintenance and running on diesel generators and according to the report, one of the generators was operating intermittently and a door motor failed… I’d start there before invoking aliens from outer space.

I'll rebut your discrediting Salas as a competent witness in a future post.
Salas is simply not credible… he’s changed his story too many times and in fact the evidence soundly refutes his claim. Furthermore, the alleged UFO sightings were never classified as you’ve been led to believe (how do you explain that if it was such a big deal?) and a possible explanation was offered for the shutdown…

http://www.cufon.org/cufon/malmstrom/page38.htm

Next...
 
Here's an original document expressing the gravity of the Malmstrom situation;


Well, you'll be glad to know that my research of the case is over.

Here's how it went:


1. Click on Youtube link.

2. See TV show in progress, with large caption saying "UFOs: Government Coverup?"

3. Close Youtube link.

4. Compose response.


Maybe I'm a bad sceptic and should be fired from my position.

Meh. I'm just sick of this drivel, basically.

Government UFO coverups revealed by axe-grinders on crappy TV shows?

Sure. Happens all the time. Just not in this Universe.
 
Well, you'll be glad to know that my research of the case is over.

Here's how it went:


1. Click on Youtube link.

2. See TV show in progress, with large caption saying "UFOs: Government Coverup?"

3. Close Youtube link.

4. Compose response.


Maybe I'm a bad sceptic and should be fired from my position.

Meh. I'm just sick of this drivel, basically.

Government UFO coverups revealed by axe-grinders on crappy TV shows?

Sure. Happens all the time. Just not in this Universe.

If you were referring to my inclusion of the 'Larry King Live' video, I posted it for two reasons;
First, I wanted skeptics to take the measure of Salas, to see he isn't a raving lunatic with an 'axe to grind' at all. Stanton Friedman was selling his book. Salas, from what I can deduce, did not seem to have an agenda on the program, other than to defend his position.
Secondly, the skeptic response to what Salas presented was very weak, as presented by Bill Nye. Here, in text, those same arguments appear much stronger than they sounded coming from a respected scientist like Bill Nye.

It is difficult not to conclude you feel the neccessity to attempt to discount the video for the above reason.
 
<snippage>

It is difficult not to conclude you feel the neccessity to attempt to discount the video for the above reason.


You don't need to conclude anything - I told you why I thought it was rubbish.

Let me explain the way a lot of sceptics view the world.


"What's the risk if I discount, out-of-hand, Larry King interviewing an alien UFO bleever on YouTube?"

"Answer: Absolutely none."​


See how that saves time?
 
It appears that the photographer was trying to take photographs of the UFO from waist high or less. This is not the stance one would expect for grabbing a camera and trying to record a UFO that may disappear rapidly. Another indicator for a potential hoax to add those already made by Sheaffer

If I am wrong about the height of the camera (which seems increasingly likely) then your statement above remains an unfounded assertion because:

”A very recent re-investigation of the Trent sighting (ca. 1999) has demonstrated that the camera used was probably not a Kodak type but rather a "Roamer 1" built by Universal Camera Corp. of New York for several year starting in 1948. It was a very inexpensive camera with a minimum f stop of f/11 and a fixed shutter time of 1/50 sec. The focal length was rated at 100 mm. The camera was designed to be held in the "landscape" orientation (long dimension horizontal) and the direction finder was to be viewed from above, that is, the operator held the camera at stomach or chest level and looked downward into the viewfinder to point the camera at the scene before taking the photo.”
(http://www.brumac.8k.com/trent1_3.html) (Bolding mine: Rr)

So you see, the estimated heights by both Carpenter and Dr Maccabee are natural for the type of camera used and rather than indicate a hoax, the estimated camera heights actually affirm the veracity of the witness descriptions.
 
I stand corrected. Thank you.
Appreciated, but not needed. I was ranting more at Rramjet, who can't even prove something that he claimed happened in this thread. Kinda makes you wonder how he thinks he can prove aliens, doesn't it?
If I am wrong about the height of the camera (which seems increasingly likely) then your statement above remains an unfounded assertion because:
Do you realise how silly this is? You claimed evidence, you're now reduced to discussing how high a camera was. Even if your photograph turns out to be 100% genuine, it's a 100% genuine photo of something in the sky that no one can identify. How does this prove aliens?
 
<snip>
There are two issues here. The negative and the print. First I think you actually need to understand what occurs when photons contact a photosensitive medium. With overexposure, the details of the subject become increasingly “lost” (that is no longer “stored” on the medium). This because the number of photons contacting any particular place on the medium will finally add up to a complete “whiteout” (ie; a completely clear negative in which NO detail is discernable – and it is utterly impossible to recover).

<snip>

My bolding.

I didn't read the wall o' text, but saw this rubbish quoted.

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you try to give a lesson in photographic procedure and get it so wrong? When there is overexposure, you don't get a "clear negative", you get a black (as far as the emulsion will allow) negative. It is the print that is "clear" (white)>
 
How can you expect to be taken seriously when you try to give a lesson in photographic procedure and get it so wrong?


Only his little minions take him seriously, and one of those, SnidelyW, already admitted he believes for the fun of it and doesn't really have anything scientific on which to base his faith.
 
My bolding.

I didn't read the wall o' text, but saw this rubbish quoted.

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you try to give a lesson in photographic procedure and get it so wrong? When there is overexposure, you don't get a "clear negative", you get a black (as far as the emulsion will allow) negative. It is the print that is "clear" (white)>

This explains a lot.
...You seem to get bogged down in the details here (“exact facts”)...
 
It has been a while since I did more than a very quick skimming. :)

Me too. I just read the first couple of words in each paragraph and if it looks like it might contain "evidence of aliens" then I read the rest of the paragraph. It's saved me a lot of time. I haven't read a whole paragraph of Rramjets since I started doing that. :D

I can get all the context I need from Astrophotographer's demolition jobs where he dismantles all of Rramjet's pseudo science point by point.
 
So you see, the estimated heights by both Carpenter and Dr Maccabee are natural for the type of camera used and rather than indicate a hoax, the estimated camera heights actually affirm the veracity of the witness descriptions.

Have you looked at the waist finder on this camera? It is not some big lens but a very small viewer that is smaller than the size of a postage stamp! Carpenter pointed this out.

roamer5.jpg

stamp.jpg

We have a choice that the cameraman used the very small waist finder, which gives a very small field of view and is difficult to frame or he chose to use the other finder, which is much easier to aim. Remember, the witness claim that had to run out real quick and photograph the UFO. Going to the waist finder would be time consuming and there was the danger the UFO would disappear or change location while he was busy trying to frame the shot by looking down. It would be far easier to just point and shoot the way the camera was meant to be used.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom